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Future of the GWR electrification

zwk500

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Frankly (?) I think the use of a word like 'offensive' could be considered offensive? The poster to which you are responding (Loppylugs) has posted a mere 358messages, against your 13,546 and I think deserves to have his view and contribution respected (esp as I support that view ;). I agree with a lot of what you say too!
Once the poster had fleshed out their objections (many of them reasonable) you will see I did respond to his points. I also acknowledge I have a fairly brusque writing style on these boards, and I will continue to make effort to monitor this so that it doesn't dissuade posters from joining in the discussion.
Is it possible (or just not sensible?) to imagine mast-and-wire-free sections through 'sensitive' places- could batteries work through Oxford or Bath or Temple Meads- could it simplify the wiring of complex trackwork?
Batteries could work, but you would be sacrificing significant benefits at the place you most want wires - your busy hubs where heavy trains are accelerating away in city centres. Batteries would make a lot of sense at somewhere like Weston-Super-Mare, but at core nodes of the national network or as part of major Inter-city lines carrying high speed trains you want continuous wires where possible. And, as mentioned, Bath has a solution already agreed with the heritage authorities and if stations such as Newcastle and York can be wired without killing the architectural grandeur I do not see why Bristol could not be similarly treated.
 
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59CosG95

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May i also ask, why is Chippenham station still not electrified? You can see the overhead wires end just before arriving at the station.
IIRC, something to do with a heritage objection raised by Wilts Council regarding the viaduct immediately west of the station.
That said, it all happened such a while ago that what I've written is probably just conjecture.
 

zwk500

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IIRC, something to do with a heritage objection raised by Wilts Council regarding the viaduct immediately west of the station.
That said, it all happened such a while ago that what I've written is probably just conjecture.
An FOI request suggests the footbridge is the problem: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/electrification_of_gwml_west_of/response/1829129/attach/html/4/FOI202100897 Response.pdf.html
Information request
Reference number: FOI2021/00897


Thank you for your email of 11 June 2021,

...

Why was this location chosen as the termination point for the electric wires?

The location was chosen as a termination point due to constraints around Chippenham
Station and the reduction in line speed below 125mph resulting in an ability to maintain
train speeds whilst operating in diesel mode. In addition, the station footbridge at
Chippenham station is too low in height for the erection of wires underneath with the
bridge being a listed structure meaning reconstruction is not guaranteed.
 

Western Sunset

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I think splitting Cardiff - Portsmouth services at BTM is a bad idea. Sometimes there are set swaps at BTM, resulting in many folk having to change on what they thought would be a through journey. Also, there are often passengers to be seen at Filton, waiting for their Portsmouth train, in Naval uniform.
 

Brissle Girl

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While OHLE has a visual impact, Chris Grayling's statement at the time was largely to avoid backlash in the government's cutting back on investment.
Also used to justify the cancelling of the Windermere electrification, because of the scarring of the Lake District landscape (conveniently forgetting that the existing electrified WCML seems to blend in quite nicely now, albeit admittedly with a less obtrusive system).
 

jayah

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Is there scope to split Cardiff-Portsmouth so that Cardiff-Bristol is EMU? Certainly there are enough spare EMUs around.
Aside from eating scarce platform capacity at Bristol, hacking the train service apart according to where there are / are not wires is the wrong way of thinking.

There are some important markets like Bath to Filton & Cardiff that would require an unnecessary change of train.
 

Class15

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The idea that the railway should prioritise photos over delivering the speed, acceleration, better air quality, and quieter trains to passengers and lineside neighbours is, quite frankly, offensive.

The electrification systems currently used have had several revisions since the GW stuff was put in. It's a lot neater. The ECML system also has a habit of dropping the wires in a stiff wind, something which the GW has been noticeably more resilient on.
I actually think the WCML electrification style is the best. It actually fails less than the GW and is also much better aesthetically.
 

The exile

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Also used to justify the cancelling of the Windermere electrification, because of the scarring of the Lake District landscape (conveniently forgetting that the existing electrified WCML seems to blend in quite nicely now, albeit admittedly with a less obtrusive system).
Though the question could be raised as to why a low-speed, single track branch needs more intrusive OHLE than a 100mph main line, other than “that’s how we do it now, stupid boy!”.
 

Energy

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Also used to justify the cancelling of the Windermere electrification, because of the scarring of the Lake District landscape (conveniently forgetting that the existing electrified WCML seems to blend in quite nicely now, albeit admittedly with a less obtrusive system).
Indeed...
Though the question could be raised as to why a low-speed, single track branch needs more intrusive OHLE than a 100mph main line, other than “that’s how we do it now, stupid boy!”.
NR Series 1 and BR MK3 single-track cantilevers aren't as visually different as you'd imagine. You aren't going to get a unique design for lower speed lines unless necessary, the design work and NR having to stock different spare parts would counteract the cost savings. Windemere is still mostly 60mph anyway...

network-rail-series1-and-mk3-ohle-comparison.png


The easiest way to minimise visual impact is to paint it dark green. The bright grey reflects more sunlight so gets less warm in the summer (and I presume is cheaper) but does stand out.
 
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Falcon1200

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The station at Oxford is not an architectural masterpiece, but the views of dreaming spires will not be enhanced by electrification.

Oxford station is nowhere near the dreaming spires and electrification will not affect the views of them in any way.

Are there currently any views of dreaming spires including the railway?

No!
 

zwk500

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I think splitting Cardiff - Portsmouth services at BTM is a bad idea. Sometimes there are set swaps at BTM, resulting in many folk having to change on what they thought would be a through journey.
Also, there are often passengers to be seen at Filton, waiting for their Portsmouth train, in Naval uniform.
According to the ORR Origin-Destination Matrix in 2021 (https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/richard.rowson/viz/RailODManalysis/Topdestinationsbystation), there were 4,000 journeys from Portsmouth (Harbour and P&S) to Bristol Temple Meads, 426 from Portsmouth to Filton, and 3,000 to Cardiff Central.
I will admit, that's a higher split in favour of Cardiff than I expected. 3,000 journeys a year is less than 10 a day, but still.
When you look at FAW as the point of origin, Bath is a pretty big cutoff for travel (as you'd expect). Bristol and Cardiff are collectively 30% of the journeys from FAW, with Bath another 10%. The two Portsmouth stations make up 0.1% of journeys from FAW each (all percentages rounded fairly roughly).
Though the question could be raised as to why a low-speed, single track branch needs more intrusive OHLE than a 100mph main line, other than “that’s how we do it now, stupid boy!”.
AIUI from a previous thread on the subject the OLE that was proposed was not objected to by the National Park or local residents.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Do you think many people at the MOD even remember that - the station was opened 28 years ago specifically to serve the MOD site?

Being as many of the transfers into FAW were well used to London area commuting and choice , it would have been quite important to them - and indeed their bosses. Yes - quite a long time ago now , so at least something was done to alleviate the situation. The present station is the third in the area , and of course enhanced over a decade ago when much of the area was 4 tracked. Celebrating the fact is the only time I have actually named a unit - Wessex 150243 I think. (did not retain the name - "The Filton Partnership" for very long.......
 

Brissle Girl

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Being as many of the transfers into FAW were well used to London area commuting and choice , it would have been quite important to them - and indeed their bosses. Yes - quite a long time ago now , so at least something was done to alleviate the situation. The present station is the third in the area , and of course enhanced over a decade ago when much of the area was 4 tracked. Celebrating the fact is the only time I have actually named a unit - Wessex 150243 I think. (did not retain the name - "The Filton Partnership" for very long.......
I wonder how many of those bosses are still in MOD employment. 28 years later I would have thought they have been long retired. And regardless of that, the service today is far better than in those days.
 

lachlan

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Snow1964

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It is the old footbridge, there is now a new one which cost £3m and was opened in 2016. A few months back a new lift was opened on the north side so new bridge is fully accessible.

The old footbridge is still there, in use, but I guess needs lifting and couple of extra steps added to staircases
 

Loppylugs

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Once the poster had fleshed out their objections (many of them reasonable) you will see I did respond to his points. I also acknowledge I have a fairly brusque writing style on these boards, and I will continue to make effort to monitor this so that it doesn't dissuade posters from joining in the discussion.
I'm too old in the tooth @zwk500 to take umbrage at anyone expressing their views, whether in a brusque style or not! I simply detest what has been done to the GW main line and simply wish it wouldn't spread further, although as I said, electrification is the inevitable way forward. Yes, I have been at Temple Meads to witness the difference between an 800 and a Voyager and I fully agree with your argument there. Photography ok there at present though!
 

zwk500

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I'm too old in the tooth @zwk500 to take umbrage at anyone expressing their views, whether in a brusque style or not!
Good to know!
I simply detest what has been done to the GW main line and simply wish it wouldn't spread further, although as I said, electrification is the inevitable way forward.
For all that I've said, I do share the frustration at the heavy-handedness of the GW electrification, however I do take some respite in looking at more recent projects (parts of the GW enhancement are now approaching 10 years old!) and the neater and lighter equipment
Yes, I have been at Temple Meads to witness the difference between an 800 and a Voyager and I fully agree with your argument there. Photography ok there at present though!
Yes, Photography at Temple Meads is probably far more impacted by the signalling gantries and (at present) scaffolding crash deck than any electrification that would be there. I've spent plenty of time at York and Newcastle stations which are of similar grand statures and the electrification equipment there is very easy to overlook, which does give me hope that when wires do reach Temple Meads a similarly sensitive installation can be designed.
 

Meerkat

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Has quadrupling fixed Filton Bank congestion issues or would electric power up the hill be useful for speeding things up?
 

Brissle Girl

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Has quadrupling fixed Filton Bank congestion issues or would electric power up the hill be useful for speeding things up?
As you might expect, it has certainly fixed congestion issues, enabled additional services already (2tph on the Severn Beach branch and an additional tph to Gloucester). The Bristol East remodelling also helped address further capacity constraints on the approach to Temple Meads.

So I doubt electrification will provide any capacity improvements, but obviously having electric instead of diesel up Filton Bank would be desirable. Although as others have noted, the 2tph fast London services which were planned to use the route have long gone from GWR's plans.
 

Meerkat

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I still think the Mendip quarries should be a priority to get a lot of heavy freight going into urban areas onto electric, and make them faster so they get in the way less on the congested GWML.
I assume the Mendip quarries will be going plenty long enough to make it worthwhile?
 

59CosG95

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I still think the Mendip quarries should be a priority to get a lot of heavy freight going into urban areas onto electric, and make them faster so they get in the way less on the congested GWML.
I assume the Mendip quarries will be going plenty long enough to make it worthwhile?
Amen to that. The 59s certainly aren't getting any younger, and, while FL will probably end up plonking 66/6s or 70s on the front at some point, they'll likely want to start looking at electric haulage east of Westbury in the future, particularly now that the Poplar Curve is due to be wired. I can see 99s being very popular for this...
 

Snow1964

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Would it be worth electrifying the line through Melksham (and possibly reinstating double-track), rather (or in addition to) the B&H?
There has been talk of a dynamic loop on the line, the formation is of course former broad gauge double track, so even where it has been slewed is fair amount of space.
 

Trainbike46

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I still think the Mendip quarries should be a priority to get a lot of heavy freight going into urban areas onto electric, and make them faster so they get in the way less on the congested GWML.
I assume the Mendip quarries will be going plenty long enough to make it worthwhile?
very much a good idea - and unlike Oxford and Bristol it isn't dependent on finishing any work at stations that lead to it being delayed in the first place
 

I'm here now

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Is it possible (or just not sensible?) to imagine mast-and-wire-free sections through 'sensitive' places- could batteries work through Oxford or Bath or Temple Meads- could it simplify the wiring of complex trackwork?
Why would you want to spend more money on an unsustainable battery rather than some great OHLE trains? I don’t see the point of that when you can just put up some masts and get the job done with a better, more reliable and cheaper service. Some of the crossovers on the GWML are quite maddening but they did it in the end.
 

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