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Hulley's of Baslow

Cesarcollie

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I was posting on detailed local knowledge, and with having met with DCCs head of transport and their view. I wouldn't post without knowing the facts and figures. It's only 230 miles of daily operation. 6 journeys each way. 07.20 - 18.30.


Unless it's changed, DCC always had an option to the operator of either. You could submit a lower bid whereby you'd keep the revenue or a higher bid and not keep it.

Looking at the 172 timetable it appears to be (on M-F) one bus running continuously from around 7am to 7pm. Then a second peak only bus doing an am & pm school journey in the opposite direction to the all day vehicle. Given max driving hours is 10 and bus 1 has no in-built meal breaks that effectively means two peak buses, and at least two drivers (on long days) both working the peaks, then covering each others meal breaks during the day. So circa 24 hours pay (depending if paid breaks) and two buses. I dont know who keeps the revenue, or what it is. But I stand by my view that (subject to that unknown) £200k isn’t at all excessive! Apologies if I’m missing any vital information. All I would add is that what some local authorities ‘think’ is expensive is based on pre-covid, pre Ukraine times long ago!
 
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JKP

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I was posting on detailed local knowledge, and with having met with DCCs head of transport and their view. I wouldn't post without knowing the facts and figures. It's only 230 miles of daily operation. 6 journeys each way. 07.20 - 18.30.


Unless it's changed, DCC always had an option to the operator of either. You could submit a lower bid whereby you'd keep the revenue or a higher bid and not keep it.
So that is around £3.00 per mile? Without knowing what revenue is likely to be per mile, this sounds reasonable to me. I retired 5 years ago and many rural bus contracts were well over £2.00 per mile. If scholars are carried is it possible that no additional money is paid to the operator for their carriage?
 

tocguard

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Looking at the 172 timetable it appears to be (on M-F) one bus running continuously from around 7am to 7pm. Then a second peak only bus doing an am & pm school journey in the opposite direction to the all day vehicle. Given max driving hours is 10 and bus 1 has no in-built meal breaks that effectively means two peak buses, and at least two drivers (on long days) both working the peaks, then covering each others meal breaks during the day. So circa 24 hours pay (depending if paid breaks) and two buses. I dont know who keeps the revenue, or what it is. But I stand by my view that (subject to that unknown) £200k isn’t at all excessive! Apologies if I’m missing any vital information. All I would add is that what some local authorities ‘think’ is expensive is based on pre-covid, pre Ukraine times long ago!
From what I understand you are saying here is that you're basing your costs on 2 buses and 2 drivers being paid 12hr shifts, ie 24hrs total. In reality 24 hours worth of bus provision isn't being provided. Yes 2 drivers will be being paid 12hours each but whilst the bulk of the day 1 driver goes and spends 8 hours elsewhere doesn't mean the cost of that should be billed to a routes costing. This is the problem that has been caused by the manipulation of the timetable to suit the current operator and making it more difficult for others. You are quite right that 200k is reasonable for 2 drivers being paid 12 hour shifts as long as both are driving on the same route concerned all day. You cannot reasonably expect nor the council to think it an ideal situation for it to pay the cost of 2 buses being operated all day, only for 1 to go off for the most part to probably operate other tendered routes that it is already paying for separately.

The only other route that is comparible for the same operator that uses 2 buses and doesn't interwork is the 110/111. The council pay a very similar amount and that does see both buses operating on the route full time, not one going off elsewhere for much of the day. Total milage is 340 so an extra 110 miles daily for the same cost. So yes, if the 2nd bus was on the 172 full time and did the extra 110 miles or thereabouts then you'd expect both to be of similar cost, but it doesn't. It's clearly being milked because there isn't a standard calculation being used and I suspect the council realised this knowing what each operator generally charges for the other routes held, hence their belief it was steep. Notwithstanding the fact it was the LEAST competitive bid but had to be awarded due to the other bidders not having resources in place at the time.
If scholars are carried is it possible that no additional money is paid to the operator for their carriage?
It's a mixture. There are 3 schools for which the route serves. Passes are issued by the council for all 3 of them if the distance is greater than 3 miles. There are regular fare paying pupils that fall under that milage threshold and there are many fare payers who attend Lady Manners from outside of it's catchment area who therefore do not qualify for a free home to school pass because there is a nearer school that is suitable, as per Government legislation.
 

Simon75

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Doesn't Trentbarton still have a depot in Matlock they could run services if they won any tenders?
 

Cesarcollie

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From what I understand you are saying here is that you're basing your costs on 2 buses and 2 drivers being paid 12hr shifts, ie 24hrs total. In reality 24 hours worth of bus provision isn't being provided. Yes 2 drivers will be being paid 12hours each but whilst the bulk of the day 1 driver goes and spends 8 hours elsewhere doesn't mean the cost of that should be billed to a routes costing. This is the problem that has been caused by the manipulation of the timetable to suit the current operator and making it more difficult for others. You are quite right that 200k is reasonable for 2 drivers being paid 12 hour shifts as long as both are driving on the same route concerned all day. You cannot reasonably expect nor the council to think it an ideal situation for it to pay the cost of 2 buses being operated all day, only for 1 to go off for the most part to probably operate other tendered routes that it is already paying for separately.

The only other route that is comparible for the same operator that uses 2 buses and doesn't interwork is the 110/111. The council pay a very similar amount and that does see both buses operating on the route full time, not one going off elsewhere for much of the day. Total milage is 340 so an extra 110 miles daily for the same cost. So yes, if the 2nd bus was on the 172 full time and did the extra 110 miles or thereabouts then you'd expect both to be of similar cost, but it doesn't. It's clearly being milked because there isn't a standard calculation being used and I suspect the council realised this knowing what each operator generally charges for the other routes held, hence their belief it was steep. Notwithstanding the fact it was the LEAST competitive bid but had to be awarded due to the other bidders not having resources in place at the time.

It's a mixture. There are 3 schools for which the route serves. Passes are issued by the council for all 3 of them if the distance is greater than 3 miles. There are regular fare paying pupils that fall under that milage threshold and there are many fare payers who attend Lady Manners from outside of it's catchment area who therefore do not qualify for a free home to school pass because there is a nearer school that is suitable, as per Government legislation.

I’m afraid your logic is flawed. If two drivers are required at both peaks, and there is (say) 6 hours between the peaks, most of that will be eaten up by the drivers being paid for the (approx) 2 hours each they can’t legally drive and covering each others statutory meal breaks.Unless you’re suggesting they should be unpaid for such time, which is unlikely to aid recr or retention? If such time isn’t costed to the tender, how else is it paid for? There is no such thing as a ‘standard calculation’. In general terms, mileage costs are relatively low compared to hours Paid. So your pro-rata calculation doesn’t really mean very much. Every tender is different.
 

tocguard

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I’m afraid your logic is flawed. If two drivers are required at both peaks, and there is (say) 6 hours between the peaks, most of that will be eaten up by the drivers being paid for the (approx) 2 hours each they can’t legally drive and covering each others statutory meal breaks.Unless you’re suggesting they should be unpaid for such time, which is unlikely to aid recr or retention? If such time isn’t costed to the tender, how else is it paid for? There is no such thing as a ‘standard calculation’. In general terms, mileage costs are relatively low compared to hours Paid. So your pro-rata calculation doesn’t really mean very much. Every tender is different.
Ok I'm wrong then and the other bidders, one of a respected operator and another of a large group were massively out with their substantially more competitive bids.

You want to have a look at the Hulleys driving duties!!! And you might want to familiarise yourself with the non retention and huge staff turnover since new management. I think most people are already aware of that and I don't think hulleys would be in the state it is now if there wasn't something in that.
 

Cesarcollie

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Ok I'm wrong then and the other bidders, one of a respected operator and another of a large group were massively out with their substantially more competitive bids.

You want to have a look at the Hulleys driving duties!!! And you might want to familiarise yourself with the non retention and huge staff turnover since new management. I think most people are already aware of that and I don't think hulleys would be in the state it is now if there wasn't something in that.

I don’t dispute any of that - I’m not local. My perspective was simply on the (I believe incorrect) statement that £200k was expensive for the tender involved. I shan’t comment further - I’m not qualified to comment about Hulleys specifically as a business.
 

derbybusdepot

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The tendering system itself seems overly complex. Are these emergency tenders on the basis of the operator being paid to run the service and the council keeps any fares? Or is that too down to negotiation?

I assume council's then look at what offers best value, which may not be the lowest bid, is it really that impartial? What happens if all the bids are much higher than what they currently pay Hulleys?

My guess would be that one or two routes will change operators, and the rest will remain with Hulleys. Have the council been a bit harsh/irrational trying to retender so many routes at short notice? Trying to push a struggling company further to the edge doesn't really help anyone.
 

Trainman40083

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The tendering system itself seems overly complex. Are these emergency tenders on the basis of the operator being paid to run the service and the council keeps any fares? Or is that too down to negotiation?

I assume council's then look at what offers best value, which may not be the lowest bid, is it really that impartial? What happens if all the bids are much higher than what they currently pay Hulleys?

My guess would be that one or two routes will change operators, and the rest will remain with Hulleys. Have the council been a bit harsh/irrational trying to retender so many routes at short notice? Trying to push a struggling company further to the edge doesn't really help anyone.
Are they being harsh or just trying to.ensure that they get the level of service they state they require that best meets the needs of the potential users? It has been said that if Hulleys can reliably deliver these services, the tender will not be awarded. If it is awarded, the successful bidder has to be able to deliver that service, else don't bother bidding. I am sure many people are fed up with ghost buses. Those that don't run, but there is nothing to say they are not running. To use buses need certainty of travel of they are to stop using the car .
 

mangad

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My guess would be that one or two routes will change operators, and the rest will remain with Hulleys. Have the council been a bit harsh/irrational trying to retender so many routes at short notice? Trying to push a struggling company further to the edge doesn't really help anyone.
No company has a right to have a council contract. Indeed no company has a right to even exist.

And when push comes to shove, no council will want to set a precedent where poor service is accepted from one of their suppliers because they have many suppliers some of whom will want to get away with the same.
 

Flange Squeal

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If I was a local taxpayer, I’d be more cross if the local council didn’t react to one of its suppliers who were reportedly leaving people at the side of the road with next to no information.
 

derbybusdepot

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If I was a local taxpayer, I’d be more cross if the local council didn’t react to one of its suppliers who were reportedly leaving people at the side of the road with next to no information.
On the same token a larger local operator misses several journeys on routes, some of which are funded by bsip money and no action at all is taken.

I was not suggesting that no action should be taken, I am asking if the actions are proportionate to what is necessary. If all the services are retendered they will need 5 fewer vehicles reducing the pvr from around 12 to 7?

Of course what hulley's should have done is to perhaps give up one of the services, or sort the fleet out so that they can operate everything.
 

tocguard

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Then there will be one unhappy “tocguard” :lol:
Joking aside, emergency contracts do usually attract higher costs. That said, we don't know just how "emergency" it is in terms of the period required to operate. A fair amount of the Hulleys work was due for retender in October anyway so will that date just be brought forward as the existing contract has been terminated early and so the anniversary date is no longer October?
Of course what hulley's should have done is to perhaps give up one of the services, or sort the fleet out so that they can operate everything.
That would have been the responsible thing to do. And DCC could have also removed one or two of the tenders, not everything.

The fact it appears to be everything I would say shows the sense of feeling at DCC and the operator just isn't improving anything no matter how many times they say they will, they have been saying it for years. Therfore, I find it highly unlikely that Hulleys will be asked to retain any of the current services on the basis that they can "provide a robust plan" as was distributed by the management a few days ago. Coincidentally, this was only issued some time after DCC had gone public despite the management apparently knowing what DCC were going to do from a meeting sometime beforehand. Why would you not provide reassurance to your staff before such an announcement or was it rather a quick, $#!T what can we say that makes it not sound as bad? Much the same as the propaganda of DCC supporting them at the inquiry with a letter. Regardless of any of that, I just can't see DCC knowing how huge and prolonged this problem has been, openly acknowledging it and saying they will source replacement operators, only to go back on it. It makes them just as bad.
 

Trainman40083

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Joking aside, emergency contracts do usually attract higher costs. That said, we don't know just how "emergency" it is in terms of the period required to operate. A fair amount of the Hulleys work was due for retender in October anyway so will that date just be brought forward as the existing contract has been terminated early and so the anniversary date is no longer October?

That would have been the responsible thing to do. And DCC could have also removed one or two of the tenders, not everything.

The fact it appears to be everything I would say shows the sense of feeling at DCC and the operator just isn't improving anything no matter how many times they say they will, they have been saying it for years. Therfore, I find it highly unlikely that Hulleys will be asked to retain any of the current services on the basis that they can "provide a robust plan" as was distributed by the management a few days ago. Coincidentally, this was only issued some time after DCC had gone public despite the management apparently knowing what DCC were going to do from a meeting sometime beforehand. Why would you not provide reassurance to your staff before such an announcement or was it rather a quick, $#!T what can we say that makes it not sound as bad? Much the same as the propaganda of DCC supporting them at the inquiry with a letter. Regardless of any of that, I just can't see DCC knowing how huge and prolonged this problem has been, openly acknowledging it and saying they will source replacement operators, only to go back on it. It makes them just as bad.
I remember my days on contract management in another sector. Every so often, you knew you had to terminate a contract for poor performance. You valued the supplier, you worked with them to improve, but sometimes, although it was your worst outcome, you had to terminate. If a company thinks you won't terminate or impose penalties, why would they change.
 

MotCO

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Would any Hulleys staff be entitled to TUPE to the new operator, or does Hulleys have the right to refuse? If the former, then Hulleys would presumably be short of staff to run their commercial services.
 

tocguard

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I remember my days on contract management in another sector. Every so often, you knew you had to terminate a contract for poor performance. You valued the supplier, you worked with them to improve, but sometimes, although it was your worst outcome, you had to terminate. If a company thinks you won't terminate or impose penalties, why would they change.
I think that's one of the main problems here. Circa 4 years this kind of thing has been so regular and so widespread across the companies routes. I think I'm the beginning there was clearly sympathy from different angles due to the driver shortage etc but as ever other company has settled down, Hulleys never has managed to retain it's drivers. Pay isn't really too much off an issue as it never was paid well at Baslow, but it was rather a place people would want to work. There were generations of drivers from the same family and long standing drivers who probably never envisioned leaving. Fast forward to the new management and they've all left in their droves, and yet payrises have been regular. Sometimes it's more than just money why people will or won't stay in a job.

DCC have eventually realised, hopefully, that this isn't something that is showing any signs of improvement, nor the promise of reliability from reducing frequencies and abandoning routes. Here we are with exactly the same problems, routes with less frequency, villages without a service anymore and yet the service is still as unreliable as before all those cuts that have made no positive difference.
 

Trainman40083

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I think that's one of the main problems here. Circa 4 years this kind of thing has been so regular and so widespread across the companies routes. I think I'm the beginning there was clearly sympathy from different angles due to the driver shortage etc but as ever other company has settled down, Hulleys never has managed to retain it's drivers. Pay isn't really too much off an issue as it never was paid well at Baslow, but it was rather a place people would want to work. There were generations of drivers from the same family and long standing drivers who probably never envisioned leaving. Fast forward to the new management and they've all left in their droves, and yet payrises have been regular. Sometimes it's more than just money why people will or won't stay in a job.

DCC have eventually realised, hopefully, that this isn't something that is showing any signs of improvement, nor the promise of reliability from reducing frequencies and abandoning routes. Here we are with exactly the same problems, routes with less frequency, villages without a service anymore and yet the service is still as unreliable as before all those cuts that have made no positive difference.
One of the perils of not addressing the real problem statement. If I was driving a bus all day, I'd want to be able to have loo breaks, ideally that break somewhere where I might get food and drink, maybe some shopping etc ..the kind of thing one does in a dinner hour. I recall one driver on the 55 saying that instead of a break in Chesterfield it was now East Midlands Designer Outlet (or whatever it is called). There was that route to Manchester Airport then Ashbourne way. Not a prayer of reliably delivering that service (others mentioned other staff at Macclesfield saying the bus was time faster than an aircraft). Anyone who uses the road, knows traffic is getting worse. Measures put in in one place, may have an adverse effect elsewhere. I recall waiting to take a picture of the route 55 in Alfreton. Usually turned up as it was due out or a few minutes after. You could see passengers looking edgy waiting, so I'd walk a Ross and say "it has just gone through Shirland, so it will be here soon". Look of relief of passengers faces as it gave certainty of travel. No time for the driver to visit a loo mind. If drivers interwork, then a delay on one route impacts another, and legally drivers have to have breaks. Then we have these bus stop electronic displays. I'll assume they are similar to those in Derby. Bus due at xx.xx. About 3 minutes late and it drops off to be replaced by the next service. So is it coming or not? Does the user walk away, get a taxi, or stay there, just in case? Will they be there next time, or have they a choice of mode? A choice of operator? Wherever you look, I see unreliable public transport (rail and bus). Fed up of constant excuses, so I try to avoid both....but that doesn't mean I drive. We need certainty of travel, realistic timetables, which may lead to happy staff and passengers, which should lead to growth, which should lead to profit, leading to investment, leading to service improvement. But in that respect, Hulleys are not the only with the problem, or a solution.
 

Dwarfer1979

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Would any Hulleys staff be entitled to TUPE to the new operator, or does Hulleys have the right to refuse? If the former, then Hulleys would presumably be short of staff to run their commercial services.
Probably not as it is unlikely Hulleys schedule & allocate their drivers entirely on the tendered services let alone a single route, there always seems to be a fair bit of interworking of the buses at least. Generally speaking TUPE applies when the staff are dedicated solely (or for the vast majority of their time officially over the year) to the specific contract being tendered (or unit being sold where a business sale is involved) so in the bus industry, at least in the provinces, for most operators of any size it rarely applies on tender awards. A business can't 'refuse' if it applies as TUPE is there to protect workers rights however they are allowed to offer drivers alternate positions within their own business if they have vacancies elsewhere and the staff themselves can refuse to transfer and stay with their current employer if they prefer assuming there is a position for them to take. The point is that staff should never end up out of a job, or forced to take worse terms & conditions as they have been sacked & rehired, just because the work they are employed to do has been retendered or sold.

People are not always the most logical and won't always do what you want, many dislike change, so you will often find they don't want to move even though they can/should. One of the issues the franchise areas (both Manchester & London) find is that when push comes to shove drivers don't want to change employers so new operators find they don't have as many drivers as they expect and there is a shortage at the start as they have to ramp up recruitment and training at the last minute.
 

AWK

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Would any Hulleys staff be entitled to TUPE to the new operator, or does Hulleys have the right to refuse? If the former, then Hulleys would presumably be short of staff to run their commercial services.
No, as they are not employed specifically to operate those tenders, they are employed and duties spread across both their tendered and commercial provision

I remember my days on contract management in another sector. Every so often, you knew you had to terminate a contract for poor performance. You valued the supplier, you worked with them to improve, but sometimes, although it was your worst outcome, you had to terminate. If a company thinks you won't terminate or impose penalties, why would they change.
Indeed, and this withdrawal of the contracts will have been the last step by DCC, not the first. All these contracts have a performance/dispute resolution section written in which sets out how poor performance will be managed. There will have been several exchanges/meetings between DCC and the operator, an improvement plan will have been jointly developed and agreed on, and them monitored. Only as the last resort when all the above has failed will the Authority (DCC) terminate the contracts as doing so - as others have rightly pointed out - costs the Authority more in the long run, but poor performance and lack of any signs of improvement can't be allowed to contine.

That would have been the responsible thing to do. And DCC could have also removed one or two of the tenders, not everything.

The fact it appears to be everything I would say shows the sense of feeling at DCC and the operator just isn't improving anything no matter how many times they say they will, they have been saying it for years. Therfore, I find it highly unlikely that Hulleys will be asked to retain any of the current services on the basis that they can "provide a robust plan" as was distributed by the management a few days ago. Coincidentally, this was only issued some time after DCC had gone public despite the management apparently knowing what DCC were going to do from a meeting sometime beforehand. Why would you not provide reassurance to your staff before such an announcement or was it rather a quick, $#!T what can we say that makes it not sound as bad? Much the same as the propaganda of DCC supporting them at the inquiry with a letter. Regardless of any of that, I just can't see DCC knowing how huge and prolonged this problem has been, openly acknowledging it and saying they will source replacement operators, only to go back on it. It makes them just as ba
Agreed, as above this will not have been an overnight decision by DCC but part of a process that has been going on over several months per the performance management element of the contract between DCC and the Operator.

Monitoring will have been done, meetings held, improvement plans agreed etc etc. Clearly the Operator has not been able to meet the conditions of the improvement plan and thus the final option open to DCC is contract termination.

I believe Hulleys submitted a 'package bid for these services - so rather than bidding for each service individually they put forward one bid with one price to cover all these services - perfectly allowable and normal. As such, there's only 1 contract not individual ones for each service, so DCC couldn't have terminated say the 63 and 110 contract and left them with the others. If you bid as a package, then you stand to loose the package.
 
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Cowley

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Ok. Having had a bit of a sort out and reopened the thread. Let’s keep things constructive, polite, not personal and also informative from now please.

Over to you :)
 

Bletchleyite

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I used Hulleys on Friday evening (170 Chesterfield-Bakewell) and the experience wasn't particularly positive. An old, tired-looking vehicle with mismatched seat covers, cobwebs between the grab poles that were visibly dusty and had been there for a fairly long time (despite there being a broom tucked behind one of the grab poles that could have removed it in a second) and an apparently trainee driver (who swapped in in Baslow) with someone there helping him with the route who shot past my stop despite me having rung the bell reasonably in advance and was about to fly past another one if I hadn't shouted to him. The standard of the actual driving was good though. It had the feel of a company that is only just managing to hang onto business and having to cut corners on cleaning and presentation, though to be fair Arriva Milton Keynes also shares that feel much of the time.

I was quite surprised by this as (this thread aside) I thought they generally had a good reputation.

Used TM Travel to Sheffield instead on the way back and it wasn't vastly better in presentation terms, though, to be fair. And it's well known that they're one of the poorer relations of Wellglade, operating less remunerative services using older vehicles.
 
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pjnathanail

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It’s worth noting that there is absolutely no reason that tendered services cannot subsidise commercial ones. Ultimately an operator is free to bid any price for the tender; if they win work at a high price and choose to use some of that to operate less remunerative / non remunerative commercial mileage that is their own decision and it’s well within their prerogative to do so.

A Local Authority couldn’t accept a higher bid for a tendered service just because it will support a commercial service however (albeit there would be ways of achieving that outcome, but not overtly).

In addition, a large amount of bus company cost is overhead, and so the loss of any bulk volume of tendered service work relative to the overall size of any operation risks having a significant adverse impact.

A 100 bus operator losing 5 buses worth of tendered work wouldn’t really notice - not fatally anyway. A 12 bus operator losing 5 buses worth of work could be in a much more difficult position.
 

Teapot42

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It’s worth noting that there is absolutely no reason that tendered services cannot subsidise commercial ones.
Quite, and as you point out below, tendered services help cover overheads which are fairly fixed regardless of the number of buses operated.

There are also factors to consider such as access to finance to renew the fleet. This can also be harder to obtain if there is no guaranteed income to the business for example.

In the case of Hulleys, the loss of these tendered services, coupled with the restriction placed on registering new commercial services, puts them in a very difficult position.
 

pjnathanail

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Quite, and as you point out below, tendered services help cover overheads which are fairly fixed regardless of the number of buses operated.

There are also factors to consider such as access to finance to renew the fleet. This can also be harder to obtain if there is no guaranteed income to the business for example.

In the case of Hulleys, the loss of these tendered services, coupled with the restriction placed on registering new commercial services, puts them in a very difficult position.
The point about access to finance is a very relevant and important one. Finance companies are very nervous about lending to independent operators without the security of contracts. I wasn’t aware of the commercial services restriction at Hulleys, but this would appear to place them in between a rock and a hard place - it stops them even registering some marginal mileage to try and maybe cover even partial overheads. I feel sorry for the management and drivers - not a fun place to be unfortunately.
 

Teapot42

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The point about access to finance is a very relevant and important one. Finance companies are very nervous about lending to independent operators without the security of contracts.
Not mine, I hasten to add!

I wasn’t aware of the commercial services restriction at Hulleys, but this would appear to place them in between a rock and a hard place - it stops them even registering some marginal mileage to try and maybe cover even partial overheads.
The best case will be if they manage to satisfy the TC and the restriction is lifted straight away then it will be towards the end of July before new commercial services can start. This means nearly 4 months between the loss of the tenders (assuming they are lost, which seems to be the more likely outcome) and any potential start of a new service. They'll have to lay drivers off and park up buses for that period, then try and get things going again. I can't see that being easy.

Arguably, had DCC delayed the re-tendering to the summer this would have given more scope for Hulleys to adjust and would have given time to think about what provision they actually want, rather than simply transferring over what exists. As this doesn't appear to meet the needs of those on the routes in question I can't help but think it's all a bit of a wasted opportunity and a waste of money having to repeat the process in the not too distant future. There are still runs being dropped, but these seem to be mainly on the commercial services, not the tendered ones.

I'm not at all justifying the dropped runs when I'm saying this as some may claim, it just seems to me the timing and the way it's been done is pretty much going to make it impossible for the company to carry on without at least major changes and further upheaval to local buses. 'Suggesting' they willingly give up one or two tendered routes would have aligned what they need to resource with what they can currently manage, so would fix the short term issue. It would not block them from tendering for further work and would increase the short term viability of the company, leading to a reasonably chance for the issues to be fixed and things stabilised going forwards. As things stand I can see another emergency tender being issued in the near future to cover most if not all of their commercial network.
 

AWK

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2009
Messages
196
Not mine, I hasten to add!


The best case will be if they manage to satisfy the TC and the restriction is lifted straight away then it will be towards the end of July before new commercial services can start. This means nearly 4 months between the loss of the tenders (assuming they are lost, which seems to be the more likely outcome) and any potential start of a new service. They'll have to lay drivers off and park up buses for that period, then try and get things going again. I can't see that being easy.
Given they have been struggling to operate full service I'd suggest there is a shortage of either vehicles and drivers, or both. They have a number of loaned in vehicles (3 I think) - so I can't see vehicles being parked up or drivers laid off to be honest.
Arguably, had DCC delayed the re-tendering to the summer this would have given more scope for Hulleys to adjust and would have given time to think about what provision they actually want, rather than simply transferring over what exists. As this doesn't appear to meet the needs of those on the routes in question I can't help but think it's all a bit of a wasted opportunity and a waste of money having to repeat the process in the not too distant future. There are still runs being dropped, but these seem to be mainly on the commercial services, not the tendered ones.
But the services are failing, the contract is not being honoured. There will have been multiple steps before the contract has been withdrawn. The operator has had multiple opportunities to sort things out. DCC have taken this step as a last resort, as their duty is around service provision not what works best for the operator.
I'm not at all justifying the dropped runs when I'm saying this as some may claim, it just seems to me the timing and the way it's been done is pretty much going to make it impossible for the company to carry on without at least major changes and further upheaval to local buses. 'Suggesting' they willingly give up one or two tendered routes would have aligned what they need to resource with what they can currently manage, so would fix the short term issue. It would not block them from tendering for further work and would increase the short term viability of the company, leading to a reasonably chance for the issues to be fixed and things stabilised going forwards. As things stand I can see another emergency tender being issued in the near future to cover most if not all of their commercial network.
As above, the operator will have had numerous opportunities to say how they are going to improve things. They could have offered to reduce mileage, they could have offered forward an emergency timetable which the authority could have agreed to that still covered the schools but dropped some of the 'social' trips. Or they could have kept promising things they can't deliver leaving DCC no option but to withdraw.
 

Teapot42

Member
Joined
12 Jan 2022
Messages
701
Given they have been struggling to operate full service I'd suggest there is a shortage of either vehicles and drivers, or both. They have a number of loaned in vehicles (3 I think) - so I can't see vehicles being parked up or drivers laid off to be honest.
I'm not sure if the red Solo is still there to be honest - if it is then it hasn't moved in a few weeks. They appear to have got 15 out most days, and 2 or 3 more vehicles are due back from MOT in the next month or so. Even if the loan vehicles went back that would suggest 13-14 with spares is viable going forwards.

The tenders account for at least 6 vehicles peak, more depending what aspect of the 257 is included. If it's the whole 257 that's 9, if it's just the school / college services then it's harder to tell but likely to be 7 or 8 peak.

I believe the current PVR is 17, so it could well drop to single figures - worst case less than half what it is now, and well below what they've demonstrated they can resource.
But the services are failing, the contract is not being honoured. There will have been multiple steps before the contract has been withdrawn. The operator has had multiple opportunities to sort things out. DCC have taken this step as a last resort, as their duty is around service provision not what works best for the operator.
Very true, I guess the question is how much of an impact the future failure of the operator will have. I can't see any of their services being viable commercially with another operator, so that will mean more subsidy DCC need to find. It's far from an ideal situation, but I can't help but think the timing, while likely not intentional, is possibly the worst it could be for Hulleys and I wonder if DCC have considered the knock-on impact.
 

SLC001

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2022
Messages
161
Location
Northampton
An operator that has had to attend 2 PIs in the last 6 months, another in 13 weeks, numerous service cancellations, drivers going off route, no way for the passenger to complain, no social media updates, a driver caught smoking, a bus hitting a bridge. The optics are awful. The antithesis of customer service.
My other concern about low cost operators is that they don't have the financial strength or backing which can give these niche operators some flexibility or breathing space.
In truth, if these services are worth keeping, bus travel is to become respectable DCC and the Government have got to find (more) money and pay the true cost. Sadly, local politics and arbitrary local government boundaries will hamper any quick solution.
 
Joined
1 Aug 2014
Messages
375
... but I can't help but think the timing, while likely not intentional, is possibly the worst it could be for Hulleys and I wonder if DCC have considered the knock-on impact.

The changeover date is right at the beginning of Derbyshire's school holidays: it gives two full weeks of leeway before school services resume.
 

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