Could a surcharge be introduced for when passengers choose to buy from ticket offices?

Stossgebet · 15 Mar 2025

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ticket-office-destaffing-round-two.283139/

Masbroughlad said:
When I've been travelling in Germany over the last few years, DB seem to be investing in travel centres and knowledgeable agents.

We need to be encouraging train travel and making it more accessible. I'm all for AI and technology where it genuinely helps, but sometimes you just need a human and a friendly face to help you.

Investing in the railway and getting people to switch to train, should include putting more humans on the front line. IMHO.

Didn't DB introduce an extra fee (€2 i think), to buy your ticket from a human in the ticket office verses the self serve ticket machines or online?

If that was acceptable to Germany, i see no reason why it couldn't be forced through here after 'consultation'.

I make no judgement about the pros/cons rightfulness of it.

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HSTEd · 16 Mar 2025

If such a thing was implemented it would certainly accelerate the end of ticket offices.

Meerkat · 16 Mar 2025

Stossgebet said:
Didn't DB introduce an extra fee (€2 i think), to buy your ticket from a human in the ticket office verses the self serve ticket machines or online?

If that was acceptable to Germany, i see no reason why it couldn't be forced through here after 'consultation'.

I make no judgement about the pros/cons rightfulness of it.

I imagine it would be fronted as a discount for online sales though (at the annual price rises!
(my favourite ever marketing - “free delivery. £5 discount if you collect”)

stevieinselby · 16 Mar 2025

Meerkat said:
I imagine it would be fronted as a discount for online sales though (at the annual price rises!
(my favourite ever marketing - “free delivery. £5 discount if you collect”)

Which would be immediately offset by the postage charge for anyone who wants to have a paper ticket posted to them rather than use an app or collect their tickets from a machine at the station – both of which are reliant on technology working on the day, which some people might not be comfortable with.

In almost every industry, we accept that some customers will cost the business slightly more to process than others, but we don't make them pay that extra charge. What next, supermarkets charging more for anyone who goes through an attended till rather than using the self-checkout? How many businesses pass on the credit card surcharge to their customers? Why are we so determined to make rail passengers' lives a misery and treat them with a contempt uniquely reserved for them and not customers anywhere else?

Bald Rick · 16 Mar 2025

stevieinselby said:
In almost every industry, we accept that some customers will cost the business slightly more to process than others, but we don't make them pay that extra charge.

Except many businesses do. Card surcharges for example for lots of businesses. Direct debit discounts. Supermarkets charging more for the same products in smaller stores (partly as their costs are higher). Bottles of Peroni costing more (much more!) at a pub compared to the supermarket next door, and so on.

Personally I think a small discount for tickets bought on line would be the way to go.

43096 · 16 Mar 2025

Bald Rick said:
Personally I think a small discount for tickets bought on line would be the way to go.

I'd suggest an increase in all ticket prices, then a discount back to the current price for tickets bought online. The current financial state of the railway means it has to be that way.

There also has to be a review of ticket offices - my local station has a ticket office only open during the morning. How do those niche cases that are such a favourite of this place cope the rest of the time? They buy on line or from a ticket machine. Leaving the current status quo forever is just utterly insane.

stevieinselby · 16 Mar 2025

Bald Rick said:
Except many businesses do. Card surcharges for example for lots of businesses. Direct debit discounts.

"Many"? I can count on one hand the number of times I've encountered a surcharge for paying by credit card, apart from cash or currency advances ... and my default is to put everything on my credit card, so if it was a common occurrence I would definitely know about it.

I'm unconvinced that supermarkets charging differential prices across small and large stores is down to anything other than what they can get away with charging. People who drive to a large supermarket won't stand for high prices because it's easy enough to drive to a different supermarket if one of them starts taking the mickey, but people who walk to a local convenience store are more likely to be a captive audience with less choice and so can be bilked for a little bit more.

Backroom_boy · 16 Mar 2025

stevieinselby said:
"Many"? I can count on one hand the number of times I've encountered a surcharge for paying by credit card, apart from cash or currency advances ... and my default is to put everything on my credit card, so if it was a common occurrence I would definitely know about it.

I'm unconvinced that supermarkets charging differential prices across small and large stores is down to anything other than what they can get away with charging. People who drive to a large supermarket won't stand for high prices because it's easy enough to drive to a different supermarket if one of them starts taking the mickey, but people who walk to a local convenience store are more likely to be a captive audience with less choice and so can be bilked for a little bit more.

Supermarket pricing is calculated on the floor area of the store. The smaller the store the more frequent deliveries will be needed and extra costs incurred.

But back to the topic; lots of companies do online only pricing. As others have said I doubt we'll see a ticket office surcharge labelled as such but I think we are already seeing online only bargains.

Stossgebet · 16 Mar 2025

Meerkat said:
I imagine it would be fronted as a discount for online sales though (at the annual price rises!
(my favourite ever marketing - “free delivery. £5 discount if you collect”)

Much like the hotel rooms available on most booking sites... the room costs one price, or the same room costs about £15 more if it includes a 'free' breakfast.

Bald Rick · 16 Mar 2025

stevieinselby said:
I'm unconvinced that supermarkets charging differential prices across small and large stores is down to anything other than what they can get away with charging.

Thise I know who work in the retail sector will tell you different. Of course there is an element with pricing what the market can bear, but the costs of a small store are proportionaly higher than for a large store in almost every respect.

stevieinselby said:
Many"? I can count on one hand the number of times I've encountered a surcharge for paying by credit card

Wow, we must have very different shopping habits! There’s two things on my wife’s left hand that cost me more to pay by credit card than debit card, for example. My car cost me more with credit card than if I used a debit card (I had a 0% deal lined up on the card, it was worth the extra 2%, especially with the points). At the other end of the scale the local chippy, card shop and dry cleaners all charge extra for card purchases below £5 (£20 for the dry cleaners.) Lots of other examples in between. That’s just card charges - try checking in for a Ryanair flight at the airport for the same price as doing it on line…

Brent Goose · 16 Mar 2025

stevieinselby said:
"Many"? I can count on one hand the number of times I've encountered a surcharge for paying by credit card, apart from cash or currency advances ... and my default is to put everything on my credit card, so if it was a common occurrence I would definitely know about it.

I'm unconvinced that supermarkets charging differential prices across small and large stores is down to anything other than what they can get away with charging. People who drive to a large supermarket won't stand for high prices because it's easy enough to drive to a different supermarket if one of them starts taking the mickey, but people who walk to a local convenience store are more likely to be a captive audience with less choice and so can be bilked for a little bit more.

Credit car surcharges have been illegal since January 2018

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/card-surcharge-ban-means-no-more-nasty-surprises-for-shoppers

Stossgebet · 16 Mar 2025

There seems to be a mix up between the method of sale, and the method of payment, in this discussion.

Is a surcharge for using a booking office (which would probably be explained away as a dicount for buying online or at a self service machine), which is what they do in Germany i believe, a credible idea?

I only bought it up because someone mentioned how good they thought german ticket offices are, but i felt the need to mention their extra fee. As it may be something that could be considered here. Especially if someone wants a more like for like comparison.

Do we also have a different charging regime for buying on the train. Ie. If the ticket office or tvm was open and functional, then buying on the train should be restricted to standard fares/ anytime fares only, not cheap days ect.

Meerkat · 16 Mar 2025

stevieinselby said:
What next, supermarkets charging more for anyone who goes through an attended till rather than using the self-checkout?

You get more discounts if you use the Smart Shop things at Sainsbury’s
my football club charge less online

Stossgebet · 16 Mar 2025

And forget card surcharges. In supermarkets, i have no idea how they are getting away with some of the blatant rip offs they do of you don't have their particular loyalty card. Which at best, is some form of coersive consent.

yorkie · 16 Mar 2025

Stossgebet said:
Do we also have a different charging regime for buying on the train. Ie. If the ticket office or tvm was open and functional, then buying on the train should be restricted to standard fares/ anytime fares only, not cheap days ect.

We do, yes.

Bletchleyite · 16 Mar 2025

Surcharges for card payment are illegal in the UK. Before this happened they were widespread.

BlueLeanie · 16 Mar 2025

Bletchleyite said:
Surcharges for card payment are illegal in the UK. Before this happened they were widespread.

A few exemptions to that. In particular Corporate Credit Cards.

Shopping is also an "invitation to treat" so a firm (eg motor dealer) can have a policy of only accepting a deposit on Credit Card.

Hadders · 16 Mar 2025

stevieinselby said:
I'm unconvinced that supermarkets charging differential prices across small and large stores is down to anything other than what they can get away with charging. People who drive to a large supermarket won't stand for high prices because it's easy enough to drive to a different supermarket if one of them starts taking the mickey, but people who walk to a local convenience store are more likely to be a captive audience with less choice and so can be bilked for a little bit more.

It costs far more to operate smaller stores compared to larger stores which is why proces in smaller stores are higher.

signed · 16 Mar 2025

Bald Rick said:
Except many businesses do. Card surcharges for example for lots of businesses.

In most cases the card merchant agreement prevents them from formally passing any CC fees to the customer.

Bletchleyite · 16 Mar 2025

BlueLeanie said:
Shopping is also an "invitation to treat" so a firm (eg motor dealer) can have a policy of only accepting a deposit on Credit Card.

A business can choose only to accept some payment methods but not charge fees for them that aren't charged to all.

Philip · 17 Mar 2025

In reference to the other thread, if people are unhappy about the level of ticket office patronage and questioning their justification, what is the point of ideas like this thread, as this will reduce their ticket sales even further, as well as inconveniencing people who prefer to use them, arguably discriminating against people who rely on then and struggle with technology.

The call to close them down but retain the staff on the station also isn't very logical as this won't save on the wage bill. A ticket office is a much more organised setting to sell/buy tickets from or to make journey enquiries, compared with a person roving around the station with a ticket machine and a bag of cash.

Philip · 17 Mar 2025

Also, someone mentioned that the people who rely on ticket offices are in a niche minority.

This is far from the case where I work; over half of our customers pay with cash and this has been increasing since covid, the ticket machines do not take cash so we are the only point of sale on the station which accepts cash.

And of the typical 300 people we serve every day, I'd say a good 30% of them either don't have the means to book online or use a TVM, or would struggle to use them; not just the elderly either, many foreign people and younger people in general fall into the above category.

That's without mentioning the numerous requests we receive to help someone who is struggling with their existing online booking, or wants to change their tickets, isn't sure about their journey itinerary etc.

Bald Rick · 17 Mar 2025

Philip said:
Also, someone mentioned that the people who rely on ticket offices are in a niche minority.

Philip said:
This is far from the case where I work; over half of our customers pay with cash and this has neen increasing since covid, the ticket machines do not take cash so we are the only point of sale on the station which accepts cash. And of the typical 300 people we serve every day, I'd say a good 30% of them either don't have the means to book online or use a TVM, or would struggle to use them; not just the elderly either, many foreign people and younger people in general fall into the above category.

The scond part of the quote doesn’t necessarily confirm that they are not a “niche minority” though.

HSTEd · 17 Mar 2025

Philip said:
In reference to the other thread, if people are unhappy about the level of ticket office patronage and questioning their justification, what is the point of ideas like this thread, as this will reduce their ticket sales even further, as well as inconveniencing people who prefer to use them, arguably discriminating against people who rely on then and struggle with technoloy.

Ticket offices are a significant cost centre for the railway - they employ a significant fraction of the entire industry workforce.
Meanwhile the number of tickets they actually sell is now quite small and shrinking.

A surcharge for ticket offices to reflect the cost of providing them (or at least make a nonzero contribution towards it) would encourage the passenger base to move towards alternative methods without providing a hard break point that will generate a backlash.

Ticket offices must be made utterly irrelevant before serious political discussions on their closure can occur.

EDIT:
There are reports that some ticket offices are costing an awful lot of money per actual sale.

Philip said:
The call to close them down but retain the staff on the station also isn't very logical as this won't save on the wage bill.

Well the cynical answer is that once the ticket offices are gone, staff reductions through attrition and voluntary redundancy can proceed without visible "break points" that can generate backlash like ticket office closures.

Ken X · 18 Mar 2025

Speaking as one of those who buys all their tickets at the station ticket office it would be somewhat disappointing to be charged more for this service.
We do this for a few reasons. Firstly, if I peer out of our window I can see the station (if it wasn't for the 'ouses in between) and furthermore, I walk past it on the way to the shops so, a quick swerve in, a brief transaction and we're sorted. I usually buy for the next day so this is one less thing to do on our departure.
Secondly, my wife has been the recipient of a brain injury which, whilst she has got over it, has meant she really struggles with tech. She can function perfectly face to face but online purchases have proved problematic and her smartphone is calls and texts only. The ticket office staff are always very helpful to her, helping to plan routes and seat reservations.
Lastly, one of our ticket office staff is a keen gardener and, if its quiet, we share gardening tips.

I guess we are a minority and will be interesting to see if this idea gains traction.

Philip · 18 Mar 2025

HSTEd said:
Ticket offices are a significant cost centre for the railway - they employ a significant fraction of the entire industry workforce.
Meanwhile the number of tickets they actually sell is now quite small and shrinking.

A surcharge for ticket offices to reflect the cost of providing them (or at least make a nonzero contribution towards it) would encourage the passenger base to move towards alternative methods without providing a hard break point that will generate a backlash.

Ticket offices must be made utterly irrelevant before serious political discussions on their closure can occur.

EDIT:
There are reports that some ticket offices are costing an awful lot of money per actual sale.

Well the cynical answer is that once the ticket offices are gone, staff reductions through attrition and voluntary redundancy can proceed without visible "break points" that can generate backlash like ticket office closures.

Bald Rick said:
The scond part of the quote doesn’t necessarily confirm that they are not a “niche minority” though.

As my example shows though, if using this particular station as a representation, they're currently far from irrelevant or a niche market. I know this depends on geographic location (London being much less cash oriented and more 'tech savvy') and yes in general they're no where near as busy as 10-15 years ago, but a lot of people still use them and rely on them, so is it fair to punish these people either by charging them extra or offering discounts elsewhere which they'll struggle to take advantage of?

Yes, they're costly to run, but that goes for most aspects of railway operation, the question is whether or not there is a decent return for the cost; currently where I work and no doubt at many other similar sized or larger stations, I'd say there is.

Backroom_boy · 18 Mar 2025

Philip said:
As my example shows though, if using this particular station as a representation, they're currently far from irrelevant or a niche market. I know this depends on geographic location (London being much less cash oriented and more 'tech savvy') and yes in general they're no where near as busy as 10-15 years ago, but a lot of people still use them and rely on them, so is it fair to punish these people either by charging them extra or offering discounts elsewhere which they'll struggle to take advantage of?

Yes, they're costly to run, but that goes for most aspects of railway operation, the question is whether or not there is a decent return for the cost; currently where I work and no doubt at many other similar sized or larger stations, I'd say there is.

Put it the other way around; is it fair to increase the cost (either via fares or taxation) of the railways for everyone so some people can have their preferred way of purchasing tickets?

Bald Rick · 18 Mar 2025

Philip said:
As my example shows though, if using this particular station as a representation, they're currently far from irrelevant or a niche market.

Your example doesn’t show that though.

Your example shows that of the 300 people you serve each day at the ticket office, about a third dont have the means to book on line or use a TVM.

It does not show that a third of all people using your station lack that capability, nor that the proportion who currently need a ticket office will continue to do so in future.

Bletchleyite · 18 Mar 2025

I find the reference to people without native English a bit odd in this context - the last thing I want as a tourist is an awkward real time chat with a booking office, I'd far rather switch the TVM into English and use that in my own time, or do the same online.

Philip · 18 Mar 2025

Bald Rick said:
Your example doesn’t show that though.

Your example shows that of the 300 people you serve each day at the ticket office, about a third dont have the means to book on line or use a TVM.

It does not show that a third of all people using your station lack that capability, nor that the proportion who currently need a ticket office will continue to do so in future.

We're talking about the present situation here and believe me a good proportion of our customers don't have a clue how to use a TVM or book online, quite a few can't speak English and need us to speak into their translator to understand, not something Northern's TVMs can currently help with. Quite a lot more people are using the ticket office and paying with cash compared to even just before the pandemic.

Could a surcharge be introduced for when passengers choose to buy from ticket offices?

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