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Also, it is worth remembering that ABB (BREL) were very close to winning the order for the new Northern Line trains! Imagine having two lines with 1992TS, whose troublesome nature would have became more apparent later!
In my 1994 compilation of "Underground News" issues ABB did infact produce a mock-up 1992TS car for the Northern Line, it had three different moquette designs and interior shell colours. However GEC-Metro-Cammell won it eventually after a brief halt due to funding. We now know that this outcome would have saved TFL, from more chaos let alone the Central Line saga throughout the years!
As a regular Northern Line user, I feel that we ended up with pretty decent trains. Onyx traction (which isn't of a previous generation like the Jubilee Line 96s) and tip up seats instead of the annoying perch ones on the 96s.
With the 83, I assume it was LT/LRT which specced the single doors, rather than Metro-Cammell, and that was the biggest error. I assume it was LT that also specced the dubious yellow and orange interior too
The 1983TS really could have been a decent product if it hadn't been hampered by odd design choices! It actually was quite revolutionary for its time, by having a fore/aft Joystick akin to D Stock, mitigating the need for a heavier TBC device, and the modern bogie design.
Unfortunately that was far from reality.
I Think that the only good quality products churned out of Washwood Heath all those years ago, was the 1996 and 1995TS. Their design has always been reliable and functional, with them being popular with the customer. Were the 1995/1996TS designs part of a family of similar trains? e.g. do they have anything in common in design to the Juniper? (Owing to them being built at the same factory at roughly the same time?)
With the 83, I assume it was LT/LRT which specced the single doors, rather than Metro-Cammell, and that was the biggest error. I assume it was LT that also specced the dubious yellow and orange interior too
I suspect it went as far as LT literally drawing up blueprints (and specifying traction motors etc.) rather than giving a textual/abstract specification document - so the single doors was definitely on LT.
I Think that the only good quality products churned out of Washwood Heath all those years ago, was the 1996 and 1995TS. Their design has always been reliable and functional, with them being popular with the customer. Were the 1995/1996TS designs part of a family of similar trains? e.g. do they have anything in common in design to the Juniper? (Owing to them being built at the same factory at roughly the same time?)
I don't think so - the traction packages for the Juniper and 1995TS are from the same family. Metro-Cammel had long embraced final assembly, even before the GEC Alsthom takeover. The 1995/96TS bodyshells were made in Spain and shipped over painted.
Back to the 2024TS - aside from the big window pillars (I understand it is a design necessity), they look stunning IMHO - perhaps in the same league of the 1938TS in terms of looks and innovation.
I always doubted that would happen. There's that saying with big projects... someone's law.. can't remember their name...
The original estimates were for it to begin testing on the network by the end of 2024, so it's obviously already quite behind.
I suspect it went as far as LT literally drawing up blueprints (and specifying traction motors etc.) rather than giving a textual/abstract specification document - so the single doors was definitely on LT.
I don't think so - the traction packages for the Juniper and 1995TS are from the same family. Metro-Cammel had long embraced final assembly, even before the GEC Alsthom takeover. The 1995/96TS bodyshells were made in Spain and shipped over painted.
The traction motors were from the "GEC" traction side rather than Washwood Heath anyway, which sadly became a victim of the Juniper failure which was nothing to do with them, and indeed of being in a separate company to BREL/ABB Derby, who now sourced traction motors from within ABB. Maybe if GEC had been allowed to buy BREL, they would have become a national champion?
The 390s and some of the 373s were also assembled at Washwood Heath, and they were also fine.
I wonder how technologically advanced the 2024TS will feel compared to the decade older S Stock and 2009TS? I think that they will feel similar but of course the new PIS system will bring the modernity forward! I mean they are both modern designs with AC traction packages, How does the appearance of the 2009TS compare to the 2024TS and does the latter look dated in comparison?
Important to note the 24 stock uses the next generation of these, SiC PMSM motors, which are lighter, quieter, can have significantly higher power ratings in the same installation space etc.
Go to post 1250 for more information.
I dont think the 24ts will feel like its generations above the S Stock and 2009ts. Not saying it won't feel more modern though with the use of LED screens instead of DMI's
Compare the 2009 stock with the 95ts for example, which have a similar sort of age gap, I don't notice a huge difference asides from the DMI's used.
I wonder how technologically advanced the 2024TS will feel compared to the decade older S Stock and 2009TS? I think that they will feel similar but of course the new PIS system will bring the modernity forward! I mean they are both modern designs with AC traction packages, How does the appearance of the 2009TS compare to the 2024TS and does the latter look dated in comparison?
I don't think they'll feel a generation ahead of the S stock, which already has through gangways and aircon, but it's incorporating such features in a shrunken tube train which is the big advance, which will make the 2009s look like the last of a previous generation.
In time, as the other tube stock is replaced, the 2009s will stand out more and more.
I dont think the 24ts will feel like its generations above the S Stock and 2009ts. Not saying it won't feel more modern though with the use of LED screens instead of DMI's
Compare the 2009 stock with the 95ts for example, which have a similar sort of age gap, I don't notice a huge difference asides from the DMI's used
I agree, the 1995TS doesn't feel miles more dated than the 2009TS, but the 1992TS compared to the 1995TS is a mixture between more futuristic and weirdly dated. On the topic of the 1992TS, do they have anything in common with the Networkers (Both built by ABB at a similar time)? Also did the construction of the 1992TS at Derby provide any basis to the forthcoming Electrostar fleet? Are the 2009TS in anyway distantly related to the 1992TS? As in various sources, the 2009TS are described as having more of a family resemblance to the latter and lesser to the 1996/96TS? Also did the 1992TS/Class 482 platform form part of a general family of ABB metro units? As they did provide some Metro trains for the Far East e.g. China and Japan, so could the design be of a modular variety or completely stand alone? I doubt the latter, as my 1994 edition of "Underground News" shows no reference to a family at the time.
Again with the 1995/96TS how much of their design can be traced back to previous Metro-Camell stock?
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I don't think they'll feel a generation ahead of the S stock, which already has through gangways and aircon, but it's incorporating such features in a shrunken tube train which is the big advance, which will make the 2009s look like the last of a previous generation.
In time, as the other tube stock is replaced, the 2009s will stand out more and more.
If only Metronet had gone with its original design of the new walkthrough Victoria Line stock, unfortunately funding was its nail in the head! if the 2009TS had been walkthrough from 2010, the tube would have enhanced its modernity well in to the 2010s and beyond, and would have made the forthcoming new designs e.g. the 2024TS look far less futuristic. Speaking of 2009TS the 2024TS shares some subtle visual similarities, ever noticed how similar the cabs are? and the front cab window styling?
I agree, the 1992 Stock has a bit of that "cassette futurism" look which in the 80s and 90s was based on making machines look futuristic using current technology in a way that would make it look like, if done properly and usually aesthetically, said machine was more advanced than it actually was.
I dont think the 24ts will feel like its generations above the S Stock and 2009ts. Not saying it won't feel more modern though with the use of LED screens instead of DMI's
Compare the 2009 stock with the 95ts for example, which have a similar sort of age gap, I don't notice a huge difference asides from the DMI's used.
I suspect average user will not notice much difference, they will see similar grades of ceiling panels, seating moquette, floor coverings etc. Obviously when brand new will be all shiny but once there is bit of ground in dirt can't imagine people will see them differently.
Only technology experts are going to observe different types of display screen resolution, or different generation motors.
I agree, the 1992 Stock has a bit of that "cassette futurism" look which in the 80s and 90s was based on making machines look futuristic using current technology in a way that would make it look like, if done properly and usually aesthetically, said machine was more advanced than it actually was.
The one good thing about the 2009s is their extra height, which as a tall person is most welcome. It does mean that the 2009s can't be moved anywhere else though.
I don't think they'll feel a generation ahead of the S stock, which already has through gangways and aircon, but it's incorporating such features in a shrunken tube train which is the big advance, which will make the 2009s look like the last of a previous generation.
In time, as the other tube stock is replaced, the 2009s will stand out more and more.
The 2024 stock and the B23s are a step up technology wise but I think they're more an evolution than revolution. I'd be curious to see what they'll do with the Trams interior design wise once the preferred bidder is selected, my guess is a cross between what they specced for the B23s with digital screens and the specs for the new electric buses.
The one good thing about the 2009s is their extra height, which as a tall person is most welcome. It does mean that the 2009s can't be moved anywhere else though.
I wonder how technologically advanced the 2024TS will feel compared to the decade older S Stock and 2009TS? I think that they will feel similar but of course the new PIS system will bring the modernity forward! I mean they are both modern designs with AC traction packages, How does the appearance of the 2009TS compare to the 2024TS and does the latter look dated in comparison?
I think the lights makes the 2009TS look dated in a way as the trend with LED lights seems to be not using circles. The AC traction on 2009TS actually already sounds dated to me, as well as Class 378's as the IGBT's are louder, with S stock and other newer trains they seem quieter and more higher pitched though I think or have read that the 24TS might be using even more newer traction technology. The White and Yellow interior of the S stock will look dated, only because it seems like the trend of White and Yellow and the wide use of yellow handrails was a late 90s -00s trend mainly for public transport in London. The PIS system and adverts would obviously look dated, I feel like because the screen in modern PIS system is like an LCD/LED screen, which is a square/rectangle it might influence the internal design of vehicles to be more boxy or angular.
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I suspect average user will not notice much difference, they will see similar grades of ceiling panels, seating moquette, floor coverings etc. Obviously when brand new will be all shiny but once there is bit of ground in dirt can't imagine people will see them differently.
Only technology experts are going to observe different types of display screen resolution, or different generation motors.
I dont think the 24ts will feel like its generations above the S Stock and 2009ts. Not saying it won't feel more modern though with the use of LED screens instead of DMI's
Compare the 2009 stock with the 95ts for example, which have a similar sort of age gap, I don't notice a huge difference asides from the DMI's used.
They used similar door tech. The head/taillights of the 95 ts was probably modified to LED ones so they can look more newer also the Destination displays and the the ventilation vents on the lower cab look almost similar to an 09ts, but smaller. So I guess over time if more stock is introduced after the 24ts, it will make the 95/6 and 09 ts look old but not the S stock too much. I think the tones of plastic used on the 1992ts and maybe the texture of some materials look quite 80's to me.
If we're looking at it generally maybe, from a linear direct passenger experience POV.
But things like managing to fit a working AC system in the deep tube is a mammoth achievement, which itself was only possible thanks to other massive technological advancements and changes to the core design of a tube train, like the floating carriages. I wouldn't call that an evolution, it is a revolution.
Also did the 1992TS/Class 482 platform form part of a general family of ABB metro units? As they did provide some Metro trains for the Far East e.g. China and Japan, so could the design be of a modular variety or completely stand alone? I doubt the latter, as my 1994 edition of "Underground News" shows no reference to a family at the time.
You are probably overestimating the reputation of British trains. The 1980s/90s was the decline of BREL, Metro Cammell, with all of them absorbed by other companies. Japan was/is more than capable of manufacturing their own trains to a higher standard. China was manufacturing their own trains as well (with a bit of Soviet assistance). The Beijing Metro opened in the 1970s so was still relatively new.
The only successful British export at that time were the trains for Hong Kong MTR & KCR by Metro Cammell, probably because it was a British colony back then. Metro Cammell lost the contract for the Singapore MRT to Kawasaki, and that was the end of Metro Cammell.
I suspect it went as far as LT literally drawing up blueprints (and specifying traction motors etc.) rather than giving a textual/abstract specification document - so the single doors was definitely on LT.
To be fair to LT, at the time that the 1983 stock was designed (very late 70s / very early 1980s), London Underground passenger volumes had fallen to their lowest level since the second world war. London's population - the key indicator of London Underground traffic volumes in the years to come, had been falling continuously for decades and it too would reach its low point at the start of the 1980s. Both LT, British Rail and the UK Government had been expecting public transport volumes to fall further and it was reasonable for the 1983 Stock to have been designed with this in mind. A smaller fleet of shorter trains would have been sufficient for the future they expected. That future, thankfully did not come to pass and growth in both population and London Underground Passenger traffic would be near constant, save for a few shortish recessionary blips from that point until the mid 2010s and this trend would soon reveal the short comings of the 1983 stock - but no one would have bet on that in 1982!
It seems the first 24 stock was taken out to play last night.
The photo caption says: Early hours this morning the 24ts made its first venture out of the depot onto the main line. Successful test run Ruislip Siding to Rayners Land and back. 100% successful. About to embark on the initial main line trial it stood momentarily on 37E at Ruislip alongside a 63 year old icon on 36E - photo opportunity too good not to miss.
It seems the first 24 stock was taken out to play last night. View attachment 177355
The photo caption says: Early hours this morning the 24ts made its first venture out of the depot onto the main line. Successful test run Ruislip Siding to Rayners Land and back. 100% successful. About to embark on the initial main line trial it stood momentarily on 37E at Ruislip alongside a 63 year old icon on 36E - photo opportunity too good not to miss.
Ah, it’s out in the open! Yes - it was out last night. Very slow speed test run to check a few different things, from Ruislip siding to Rayners Lane and back via the siding at Rayners.
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