National Routeing Guide update

Iggy12a said:

I sent in a comment to Customer Services, asking for it to be forwarded to the Pricing Manager, asking why they had not applied to changes to Chichester and Havant

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Even better!

I had it on my to-do list anyway, but the changes have prompted me to follow up on my email thread to ask for an additional set of changes. Let's see what happens.

MrJeeves said:

I like to think someone somewhere saw the cries for this to be changed on this thread.

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I thought that too. It makes sense.

Iggy12a said:

I sent in a comment to Customer Services, asking for it to be forwarded to the Pricing Manager, asking why they had not applied to changes to Chichester and Havant

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I was wrong. Thanks for that.

Some changes were published in the routeing guide yesterday.
This now allows journeys via Berwick-upon-Tweed.

No effect.

There's no NFM64 fare between Mortlake or North Sheen and Heathrow. This makes Barnes a valid routeing point for Mortlake or North Sheen, but does nothing for Heathrow.

An easement is not normally needed for this as the tickets all include cross-London travel and the stations all have mapped routes to London Terminals.

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The following post was made on 8th March 2025.

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Two more updates were made to the routeing guide last week.

On Wednesday the following changes were published:
This stops someone with (say) a Farnborough-London "not via Reading" ticket from making the journey with a single change in Basingstoke.

The line between Salisbury and Yeovil is closed then. There are buses, and also an hourly train which goes between them via Castle Cary and Westbury.

This easement permits travel via Westbury and Yeovil for journeys with "via Honiton" tickets if you use a SWR service. This is needed for "via Honiton" tickets as the data for the route code bars travel via Castle Cary entirely. The same is true for "via Honiton and Southampton" (00828) ones.

For some other journeys no easement is needed. Itineraries for "via Honiton not London" Weybridge-Exeter tickets using the diverted trains are available because there are non-stop between Salisbury and Honiton (Salisbury is due to another restriction the customer isn't told about). Weybridge-Pinhoe tickets, being "not via London" ones, are not valid with the diversion.

Some of the line between Woking and Basingstoke is closed then, so this is intended to let some travellers avoid the area. It means you can go via Havant with a "via Woking" Surbiton-Fareham ticket, but not with a Surbiton-Southampton one as there's no suitable map combination.

This lets you double back through Exeter St. Thomas with a ticket from there to Newton Abbott. You could already get an itinerary to do this as the journey isn't much longer than the shortest route, and retailers ignore it when trains go non-stop through Exeter St. Thomas.

Yesterday, the following was published:
These were all temporary easements for which the dates have passed.

The text for this is similar to 701325, but the data only applies it to journeys between "southern region" London Terminals and Farnborough Main, and only to journeys via Woking.

This removes Basingstoke as an applicable location. exclusions, so (for instance) a Bournemouth-Bristol ticket isn't shown as being valid via Basingstoke and Reading.

This appears to forbid Transport for Wales trains between Bristol and Gloucester rather than Crosscountry ones. The only such trains which are still in the schedule (on the 9th and 20th, anyway) are GWR ones, so I don't know what the purpose is.

The data for this is now different, and forbids travel between "southern region" London Terminals and Farnborough Main via Basingstoke, as well as travel to or from Farnborough Main using a route via Basingstoke, Woking and Clapham Junction. As this is a "local" easement it only counts if you double back through Farnborough Main.

kieron said:

Changes from 05 Mar 2025 (551) to 07 Mar 2025 (552).​

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Easement changes:​

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Removed:​

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701298 (Fare route) Due to engineering work route closures between 01 and 16 February 2025. Tickets priced on (00615) VIA GOMSHALL will be valid on rail replacement buses between Guildford and Gatwick airport that do not call at Gomshall.​

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Thanks for your updates. Is there a septate easement that covers the Sunday engineering works between Guildford and Gatwick, so the VIA GOMSHALL tickets are valid on the rail replacement buses?

No; 701298 was the most recent one. As a result, gwr.com says there are "No tickets available" for the 10:06 departure on 13th April (link), whereas nre.co.uk doesn't show the bus at all. You could get something like a Guildford-Three Bridges ticket if you needed an itinerary.

kieron said:

No; 701298 was the most recent one. As a result, gwr.com says there are "No tickets available" for the 10:06 departure on 13th April (link), whereas nre.co.uk doesn't show the bus at all. You could get something like a Guildford-Three Bridges ticket if you needed an itinerary.

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I personally don't know why they just didn't keep the easement and change the dates on it. I've sen that happen for other engineering works. Ledd work than having to create a new one, assuming they do create a new one, nearer the time of the next set of engineering works.

Some changes to the routeing guide were published yesterday.
These were temporary easements for earlier this month.

Cambridge wouldn't otherwise be a valid routeing point for Kennett for journeys to a number of stations north of Leicester.

There are other stations in a similar situation, such as Morpeth and Dalmeny, but which you're less likely to go via Loughborough on a journey to Kennett.

Many of the trains which stop at Hillington East on Sundays don't stop in Cardonald, and retailers treat them as though they don't go through the station.

This easement is intended to stop (say) Cardonald-Glasgow tickets from being offered with itineraries via Hillington.

This removes the "GWR only" restriction from the easement text. The data doesn't include an operator restriction.

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The following post was made on 28th March 2025.

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Some changes to the routeing guide were published on Wednesday.
The following easements all relate to 3rd-5th May, a bank holiday weekend when the line between Gloucester and Bristol Parkway is closed, as well as the line through Stonehouse station. The line between Stonehouse and Swindon is also closed on the Sunday.

And a few of the replacement buses on the Sunday are due to go between Gloucester and Swindon without visiting Stroud. This easement lets those buses be used with a "via Stroud" ticket.

It doesn't work so well for Gloucester-Swindon tickets (at least, not on nre.co.uk), perhaps because the easement requires journeys via Gloucester or Swindon, and a Gloucester-Swindon ticket is unlikely to be used to do either.

This easement doesn't affect other route codes such as (00803) "via Evesham/Stroud" or (00808) "via Reading, Stroud and London" (used for various routes, including Gloucester-Southend).

These are three map easements which only apply for journeys via Lydney, and which have Bristol Group, Newport, Gloucester, Cheltenham and both stations in Worcester as applicable locations.

701334 applies to tickets from or to Cheltenham or Gloucester.

701335 applies to "via Evesham/Stroud" tickets from or to the stations between Ledbury and Worcestershire Parkway inclusive.

701333 applies to tickets from or to Ashchurch and the stations between Ledbury and Worcestershire Parkway inclusive which are not used to go from, to or via Didcot.

Although the easements include Newport, you can't travel via Lydney, Newport and Bristol Parkway as you aren't permitted to double back through Severn Tunnel Junction. You can change at Severn Tunnel Junction, though.

If you travel on a "via Evesham/Stroud" tickets from or to one of the stations between Ledbury and Worcestershire Parkway inclusive, this should let you travel via Swindon.

While the data for this easement looks reasonable, I haven't been able to find an itinerary which nre.co.uk says is valid both ways via Swindon. The closest I've found is that it offers itineraries via Severn Tunnel with a "via Evesham/Stroud" Worcester-Reading ticket, but not in the opposite direction.

The line through Evesham is open as normal then, so that may be more attractive anyway.

Some changes to the routeing guide have been published this week.

The following changes were published on Wednesday.
This journey now has mapped routes via Perth, Edinburgh and Rugby.

This journey now has mapped routes via Redhill.

This journey now has mapped routes via Redhill and Dover.

The following was published yesterday (Thursday).
This easement went through a few iterations, but the final one meant that, while you could buy a ticket between Bristol and Newport with an itinerary via Gloucester (there are other easements which allow that), you couldn't buy one to Cwmbran because it would involve a TfW train.

It's gone now, though.

London Euston is shut on 19-21 April and 4-5 May, with Avanti trains running north from Milton Keynes. An easement like this isn't really needed to use rail replacement buses, but it would be if you caught a train between Bedford and Bletchley instead.

The data is for a map easement with London St. Pancras, West Hampstead Thameslink, Bedford, London Kings Cross, London Euston and Milton Keynes Central as applicable locations.

This easement (for the same dates as above) is needed as retailers apply a few restrictions to "AWC & Connections" tickets, including one that they may not go via Bedford. The data just says that the tickets are valid for journeys via Bedford and Milton Keynes (but not, say, Bletchley and Bedford).

This just adds dates to the text for each easement. The data is unchanged.

Some changes were published in the routeing guide on Thursday.
The line between Thanet Parkway and Canterbury West is closed on Easter Sunday, and Margate-St Pancras trains are diverted via Dover. The line between Sittingbourne, Canterbury East and Dover is also closed, so going via Dover is the most practical way to avoid the buses for many journeys.

This is a map easement, and the data has Ramsgate Group, Dover and Ashford International as applicable locations. The easement lets, for instance, a Ramsgate-Otford ticket be used via Dover.

The data lets tickets from or to Margate, Broadstairs or Dumpton Park with one of those three route codes be used via Ramsgate for journeys from, to or via the London terminals Southeastern or Thameslink use.

When I tried, nre.co.uk didn't show "any permitted" Margate-Kentish Town tickets as being valid that way, but did show Ramsgate-Kentish Town (which doesn't need this easement). I don't know why this is.

Two sets of changes were made to the routeing guide last week.

The data for some easements was changed on Monday.

Easement 701332 now allows "via Stroud" tickets to be used via Didcot and Gloucester, or via Cheltenham and Swindon, on 3-5 May.

I don't know if this is connected, but nre.co.uk now shows "via Stroud" tickets as being valid on Gloucester-Swindon buses which don't go via Stroud. The text remains:

701340 (which only applies today) had allowed Ramsgate to be used as a routeing point for Margate, etc., for journeys via a few London terminals. It's now changed to cover journeys via St Pancras or Tonbridge. The line through Maidstone East is closed, so this covers all of the mapped routes an "any permitted" ticket to London can use. The text remains:

More extensive changes were published on Thursday.
This removes London from the map. A large number of routes are restricted by this, either because a route to/from London is no longer available or because a link in London no longer exists. I've listed below those which use different maps now.

No effect.

These journeys no longer have mapped routes:
via Gospel Oak;
or ones via London and Hackney Wick which don't go via Limehouse.

This journey no longer has mapped routes via HS1.

This journey now has mapped routes via Feltham.

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Kensington Olympia.
It now has mapped routes via Feltham.

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Ebbsfleet and Faversham.

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Tamworth.

Someone travelling between Nottingham and Stoke can buy more expensive "via Tamworth" tickets, but there's no equivalent for (an an example) Radcliffe-Stoke.

Like easement 701331, this is intended to stop (say) Cardonald-Glasgow tickets from being offered with itineraries via Hillington.

Its effects are a bit wider (for instance, it means nre.co.uk doesn't show a Cardonald-Dunlop ticket as being permitted via Paisley), but I don't know how much that matters.

This stops some tickets from being valid for a double back via Gravesend. It doesn't affect journeys which use HS1 to London as easement 700283 permits those.

These are three easements with the same text, but the data is a little different. 701343 bars travel from Stone Crossing, Grenhithe, Swanscombe and Northfleet to Shoreham-by-Sea via Gravesend. 701344 bars travel from London St Pancras to Glasshoughton via Gravesend.

This covers the same dates as easements such as 701310. "Via Bristol" tickets are used for a lot of routes to places further southwest. This is most useful for routes such as Cwmbran-Swindon where going via Gloucester is an alternative to Bristol.

Retailers treat Birmingham-Bristol trains as though they go through Gloucester. As Cardiff-Cheltenham trains actually do go through Gloucester, a Newport-Cheltenham-Bristol journey using (say) a Cwmbran-Plymouth ticket would be treated as though it doubles back. There are other easements which make this a valid route in other respects, but this one is needed to make retailers accept the "double back".

kieron said:

Dartford (DFD) to London Group (G01) lose HKThis journey no longer has mapped routes via HS1.

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Wow!

This means that there is a whole category of tickets that can no longer be sold. For Example: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=DFD&dest=STP&grpd=0035&rte=131&tkt=ODT

It also means that the fastest journeys from Dartford to St Pancras are no longer valid with one ticket. Did they really mean to do this?


Edit: Of course if they are removing the need for "NOT HS1" and "PLUS HIGH SPEED" routes from Dartford then perhaps the travelcards can have the "AAA LDN ZONE 7-9" routeing applied acknowledging that Dartford is in zone 8.

MikeWh said:

Of course if they are removing the need for "NOT HS1" and "PLUS HIGH SPEED" routes from Dartford then

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The change has no impact on tickets with those routes. It affects tickets routed Any Permitted or via London though, which is likely to be tickets from further afield.

Haywain said:

The change has no impact on tickets with those routes. It affects tickets routed Any Permitted or via London though, which is likely to be tickets from further afield.

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That may be the case for Stone Crossing, Greenhithe, Swanscombe and Northfleet which are mentioned in easements, but this change for Dartford is removing a map. Try planning a journey on NRE from Dartford to St Pancras. All you will get is journeys via London Bridge or Canary Wharf EL. If you force it to route via Gravesend it will give you the times but say that there are no tickets available.

MikeWh said:

That may be the case for Stone Crossing, Greenhithe, Swanscombe and Northfleet which are mentioned in easements, but this change for Dartford is removing a map. Try planning a journey on NRE from Dartford to St Pancras. All you will get is journeys via London Bridge or Canary Wharf EL. If you force it to route via Gravesend it will give you the times but say that there are no tickets available.

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I see what you mean, but that's affecting journey planners rather than the tickets. A ticket routed 'Plus High Speed' can still be used if you can buy it. I suspect it's a case of unintended consequences.

Given that a majority of passengers travelling between Gravesend and London likely buy their ticket via a journey-planner based app/website, it has quite substantial impacts. Only really those who buy via a "dumb" TVM or ticket office would be unaffected.

Haywain said:

I see what you mean, but that's affecting journey planners rather than the tickets. A ticket routed 'Plus High Speed' can still be used if you can buy it. I suspect it's a case of unintended consequences.

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It's the mapped routes which have been inadvertently broken, which affects the validity of all tickets provided there isn't a suitable positive easement for PLUS HS1 tickets.

Sure, in practice you'll not have an issue, but hypothetically you'd be on a not permitted route.

MikeWh said:

This means that there is a whole category of tickets that can no longer be sold. For Example: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=DFD&dest=STP&grpd=0035&rte=131&tkt=ODT

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Travelcards are slightly more useful as you can at least travel between Stratford and London on HS1. According to nre.co.uk, a single or return to St Pancras only give as much validity as a "via City Thameslink" one does.

Haywain said:

I see what you mean, but that's affecting journey planners rather than the tickets. A ticket routed 'Plus High Speed' can still be used if you can buy it. I suspect it's a case of unintended consequences.

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Is there anything in writing to show where "plus high speed" tickets can be used?

kieron said:

Travelcards are slightly more useful as you can at least travel between Stratford and London on HS1.

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I don't think they are unless there's now a "plus High Speed" version?

Although both St Pancras and Stratford are in the zones, the direct services between them are not valid for Travelcards.

Peter Mugridge said:

I don't think they are unless there's now a "plus High Speed" version?

Although both St Pancras and Stratford are in the zones, the direct services between them are not valid for Travelcards.

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There seems to be a "PLUS HIGH SPEED" version now, as referenced by the given BR Fares webpage.

Regardless, there's quite a lot of flows with either NOT VALID ON HS1 or ANY PERMITTED from Dartford, such as Dartford to Witham. (without a PLUS HIGH SPEED)

These now make the ANY PERMITTED fares redundant. This must be a mistake - going via Stratford International must have been the intended route for the higher priced ANY PERMITTED fare - a much quieter and more convenient route in my view.

greaterangrier said:

Regardless, there's quite a lot of flows with either NOT VALID ON HS1 or ANY PERMITTED from Dartford, such as Dartford to Witham. (without a PLUS HIGH SPEED)

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It's not as straightforward for journeys to places east of London.

If you're not travelling into central London, going via HS1 may be treated by retailers as being permitted by the shortest route rule. They calculate the shortest route to Stratford Domestic (using a route via Bexleyheath, Wapping and Hackney Wick) as being 22.83 miles, and Dartford-Gravesend-Stratford International as 25.34 miles, so within 3 miles.

Similarly, they give the shortest Dartford–Barking route (via Stratford and a seldom used curve near Forest Gate) as being 26.68 miles, and the route via HS1 and DLR/Underground between Stratford and West Ham as 28.81 miles.

The calculation doesn't work the same for somewhere like Bishop's Stortford, but nre.co.uk shows an "✠any permitted" ticket as being valid via HS1 anyway.

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The following post was made on 24th April 2025.

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A change was made to the routeing guide today.

It simply deleted easements 701343 and 701344, both of which had the same text and easement category as 701342.

kieron said:

It simply deleted easements 701343 and 701344, both of which had the same text and easement category as 701342.

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From the change where these were brought in you explained the differences in the data. Has 701342 been updated to include the variations in the two deleted ones?

MikeWh said:

From the change where these were brought in you explained the differences in the data. Has 701342 been updated to include the variations in the two deleted ones?

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No, only the original records remain under that easement in the data: https://enrgbrowser.com/easements/701342

The others all seemed like data entry errors while 342 was the correct implementation.

Would I be right in thinking the new easement 701342 not only prevents doubling back at Gravesend, but also prevents travelling to St Pancras International on a London Terminals ticket routed Any Permitted from any of the named stations?

In practice it has always been fine to change at Northfleet and walk to Ebbsfleet International to pick up HS1 there, rather than going to Gravesend, but the mapped route was only via Gravesend. There's no fixed link between Northfleet and Ebbsfleet International.

Overall the deletion of map HK for journeys from Dartford to anywhere via London Group, together with the new easement, would appear to prevent passengers from all stations between Northfleet and Dartford inclusive using HS1 for journeys routed via London Group?

In the case of some journeys (e.g. Dartford to Cambridge, which I buy semi-regularly), it would appear to be the 'Not HS1' fare that is now redundant, rather than the 'Any Permitted', as the 'Any Permitted' is the cheaper of the two and is still valid on the shortest route and on the remaining mapped routes.

I haven't checked, but I can't imagine the route from Dartford via Gravesend is within 3 miles of the shortest route on any journey passing through Kings Cross or St Pancras? The route via Gravesend, Stratford Int, Stratford and Tottenham Hale might be worth a check?

Some more changes were published in the routeing guide on Thursday.
These were all temporary easements for dates in March.

The data has this as a map easement for "Plus High Speed" tickets between Dartford and London St Pancras which has Ebbsfleet and Gravesend as applicable locations.

nre.co.uk only shows journeys from Dartford as being valid, possibly because neither the easement nor the London-Dartford map combinations include London-Stratford. It only accepts journeys to London St. Pancras as it doesn't refer to the other Thameslink stations at all.

It shows some longer distance journeys as being valid on a through ticket via HS1 and London, but not many.

This lets travellers double back through Gloucester with any ticket on those dates. The only remaining easement for those works with a route restriction is 701311 which, as it's a fare route easement, exists to change a route restriction.

kieron said:

Some more changes were published in the routeing guide on Thursday.

Changes from 23 Apr 2025 (560) to 24 Apr 2025 (561).​

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Easement changes:​

[...]​

Added:​

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701347 (Map) Customers travelling from Dartford to London in possession of tickets with route (00131) PLUS HIGH SPEED may travel via Ebbsfleet International or Gravesend. This map easement applies in both directions.​

The data has this as a map easement for "Plus High Speed" tickets between Dartford and London St Pancras which has Ebbsfleet and Gravesend as applicable locations.

nre.co.uk only shows journeys from Dartford as being valid, possibly because neither the easement nor the London-Dartford map combinations include London-Stratford. It only accepts journeys to London St. Pancras as it doesn't refer to the other Thameslink stations at all.

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This is a mess.

Not only does the easement fail to help passengers from stations between Northfleet and Stone Crossing (inclusive) with tickets to London, it also means (and perhaps this is the intention) tickets to or from destinations outside London that are valid via London Group have lost HS1 as a mapped route.

I was talking to some Maidenhead United fans yesterday who confirmed that last time they went to an away game at Dartford (which was about nine years ago now), they all went by way of Paddington, St Pancras and Gravesend as it was the same price as the slower and more direct journey via (for example) London Bridge. Perhaps there is a case that that route is circuitous, and it certainly is true that the trains between St Pancras and Ebbsfleet can get very crowded at times, while the trains out of London Bridge (particularly the North Kent line via Woolwich) seem to have more spare capacity than ever they did prior to the Elizabeth Line opening. The practical effect of this change now, however, is not to push people onto the London Bridge route, it is to push them onto the Elizabeth Line core via Abbey Wood, which I would have thought is every bit as busy as HS1.

If the intention were to charge a premium for using HS1, this doesn't achieve it without introducing 'Plus HS1' fares on all the flows from places outside London that go via London Group, along with bespoke easements to overcome the breaking of the map.

If, on the other hand, the intention is to reduce options for the passenger (including options to get around disruption or known overcrowding), in order to push them off one bit of line that is occasionally overcrowded onto another that is overcrowded quite a lot of the time, in a way that will catch out people who are used to their ticket being valid either way and who have no particular reason to suspect that the definition of 'permitted route' has been changed quietly, it does that splendidly.

I did a return journey from Ebbsfleet to St Pancras yesterday and can confirm no effort has been made to notify passengers that certain tickets that were valid a fortnight ago are no longer valid on HS1. Who knows whether staff have even been told or ticket barriers reprogrammed?

Some destinations in Essex (e.g. Billericay) also seem to be affected.

redreni said:

This is a mess.

Not only does the easement fail to help passengers from stations between Northfleet and Stone Crossing (inclusive) with tickets to London, it also means (and perhaps this is the intention) tickets to or from destinations outside London that are valid via London Group have lost HS1 as a mapped route.

I was talking to some Maidenhead United fans yesterday who confirmed that last time they went to an away game at Dartford (which was about nine years ago now), they all went by way of Paddington, St Pancras and Gravesend as it was the same price as the slower and more direct journey via (for example) London Bridge. Perhaps there is a case that that route is circuitous, and it certainly is true that the trains between St Pancras and Ebbsfleet can get very crowded at times, while the trains out of London Bridge (particularly the North Kent line via Woolwich) seem to have more spare capacity than ever they did prior to the Elizabeth Line opening. The practical effect of this change now, however, is not to push people onto the London Bridge route, it is to push them onto the Elizabeth Line core via Abbey Wood, which I would have thought is every bit as busy as HS1.

If the intention were to charge a premium for using HS1, this doesn't achieve it without introducing 'Plus HS1' fares on all the flows from places outside London that go via London Group, along with bespoke easements to overcome the breaking of the map.

If, on the other hand, the intention is to reduce options for the passenger (including options to get around disruption or known overcrowding), in order to push them off one bit of line that is occasionally overcrowded onto another that is overcrowded quite a lot of the time, in a way that will catch out people who are used to their ticket being valid either way and who have no particular reason to suspect that the definition of 'permitted route' has been changed quietly, it does that splendidly.

I did a return journey from Ebbsfleet to St Pancras yesterday and can confirm no effort has been made to notify passengers that certain tickets that were valid a fortnight ago are no longer valid on HS1. Who knows whether staff have even been told or ticket barriers reprogrammed?

Some destinations in Essex (e.g. Billericay) also seem to be affected.

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One way to find out would be to try and use the chepatest ticket possible, that use to be valid but technically isn't now, whilst also holding a separate valid fare, in case it does all go wrong and they suddenly want to penalty fare you.

infobleep said:

One way to find out would be to try and use the chepatest ticket possible, that use to be valid but technically isn't now, whilst also holding a separate valid fare, in case it does all go wrong and they suddenly want to penalty fare you.

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Actually, I still have the return portion of an off-peak return Dartford to Waterbeach. The only remaining validity that ticket has now is Slade Green to Dartford (which I may or may not want to use), but it is unmarked and the only gateline it's been through is Tottenham Hale (to exit the NR station). So if not for the fact I've already used it, it would have been valid to go from St Pancras to Gravesend on HS1 before the routeing guide change. Assuming I also held a valid ticket, I could probably use that to test the barriers at St Pancras HS1? Alternatively I could just put it in the barrier and see if it opens without actually going anywhere on HS1?

redreni said:

Actually, I still have the return portion of an off-peak return Dartford to Waterbeach. The only remaining validity that ticket has now is Slade Green to Dartford (which I may or may not want to use), but it is unmarked and the only gateline it's been through is Tottenham Hale (to exit the NR station). So if not for the fact I've already used it, it would have been valid to go from St Pancras to Gravesend on HS1 before the routeing guide change. Assuming I also held a valid ticket, I could probably use that to test the barriers at St Pancras HS1? Alternatively I could just put it in the barrier and see if it opens without actually going anywhere on HS1?

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That is a very good method.

infobleep said:

That is a very good method.

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I'll report back.