National Routeing Guide update

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by RJ, 16 Apr 2014.

  1. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Appears to have been updated again this week.

    The URL has changed, with a brief step by step guide of how to use it shown on the new web page. Thumbs up from me if it aids staff in understanding how to identify permitted routes - though of course, there is the hurdle of getting them to appreciate its role in the first place.

    A significant change being the maps - it appears they can no longer be downloaded in PDF form, instead being presented in a Google Maps based web app. At this moment in time, I think the PDF based maps contained less scope for disputes to arise.

    The NRG can now be found here - http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide
     
    Last edited: 16 Apr 2014
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  3. talldave

    talldave Established Member

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    Just had a peek at these for the first time - fascinating!!

    There's a "D" missing from the top diagram on page F4 though!
     
  4. gordonthemoron

    gordonthemoron Established Member

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    that's great, never knew there was a bridge direct from Morecambe to Barrow in Furness ;)
     
  5. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    I think D is for "destination" in that case!
     
  6. reb0118

    reb0118 Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I was at both stations on Monday - didn't see any bridge :p! Found out there were ferries to/from Barrow to both Heysham & Fleetwood though.
     
  7. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    The maps seem to suggest non existent links in some places and appears to provide a line of best fit in others. Map HK is very unclear on the route between Faversham and Ramsgate. London Group appears to be focused at a static location which opens up a whole new range of routing possibilities.

    I'd like to see rules clarified to explain how we use the red lines in relation to the real lines shown on the maps.
     
    Last edited: 16 Apr 2014
  8. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I like the drop down functionality of the new maps page compared to scrolling through a pdf file. But I share the concerns of RJ in interpreting the map.
     
  9. CallySleeper

    CallySleeper Established Member

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    I can see what they've tried to do with the maps, but I don't like it - it's too ambiguous. You are lead to only assume where the routing points are on the map, and which specific lines are being refered to, since there are no physical labels (i.e. like on the PDFs). This also becomes harder as you zoom out.

    I also don't like how intermediate stations are not covered by the lines. Map IP is one horrific example of this.

    Also, what's an interchange in this context?!
     
  10. cjohnson

    cjohnson Member

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    Section C has gone wrong somewhere in the update - e.g. Lincoln is only listed against RPs starting with L or later, and from Wivelsfield RP you can only look up routes to Wolverhampton or York!
     
  11. button_boxer

    button_boxer Established Member

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    Though this does make sense when you consider that the maps are only for tracing routes between routeing points, they're not relevant to the segment between an associated station and a routeing point.
     
  12. CyrusWuff

    CyrusWuff Established Member

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    Can't access the maps at work, though whether that's down to firewall issues or the fact that we still use IE8 I can't tell.
     
  13. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    I was surprised to notice that there is a map RJ. I didn't know what to expect to find! :D
     
  14. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    Makes it very confusing when you have lines from Leeds to Skipton that look to not go through Shipley (though the line from Bradford does look to).
     
  15. Goatboy

    Goatboy Established Member

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    Still not fixed the bizarre change whereby Worcester to Glasgow is banned via the ECML yet Bromsgrove to Glasgow (You almost certainly will pass through Bromsgrove if travelling from Worcester to Glasgow) is permitted via the ECML.
     
  16. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Map ML no longer shows Liverpool - Kirkby - Wigan or Liverpool - Huyton - Earlestown - Manchester. Have these routes been moved to a different map?
     
  17. N Levers

    N Levers Member

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    Why? Why? Why?

    So no possibilty of printing the maps anymore...
     
  18. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    Or proving what they were at any given time...
     
  19. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I, and undoubtedly many others on the forum, have saved copies of all the old documents. They're not lost forever!
     
  20. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    Indeed - try saving these maps though...
     
  21. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Yeah, exactly. Printscreening doesn't quite cut it sadly
     
  22. Baxenden Bank

    Baxenden Bank Established Member

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    Lets face it, using routeing points and maps is the wrong answer to the question. It was a quick fix at the time of privatisation which has outlived it's purpose. Like an alcoholic, until someone puts their hand up admits they have a problem, they will never move forward. The number of routeing points and maps together with ever increasing numbers of (not actually permissable) negative easements will continue until virtually every station becomes a routeing point in its own right. Bite the bullet and go straight to station specific routes. It's a ballache, its a mammoth task - impossible for clerks sat behind desks but not so with modern computing power.

    Future proofing - anticipating the new tidal barrage?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    All the obscure but perfectly valid routes together with a long list of negative easements as a result of RJ's previous journeys and subsequent 'discussions' with operators!
     
  23. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Map ER is a concern! It doesn't have the ECML north of Doncaster, despite the title stating otherwise.
    They tried that, but then they realised how mammoth it was!:lol:
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Look them up and see. If it no longer appears to be a permitted route, you could ask ATOC. But don't forget it would not be lawful for ATOC to make any changes without the permission of the DfT and/or without consulting Passenger Focus. Both DfT and PF are subject to FOI, so if ATOC are not going to co-operate...
     
  24. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    They could make some very simple tweaks for free - replace shortest route (+ 3 miles) with the quickest route, plus up to 10 minutes (or ideally 10%!), at the time the journey is commenced.
     
  25. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    That'd lead to issues in itself unfortunately. Manchester - Wigan - Liverpool is a permitted route but is up to 30 minutes longer than catching a fast TPE/EMT service via Warrington.

    Also, if route validity were dependant upon journey times, it would lead to utter chaos every time the timetables were changed as connections would be missed, new connections would be possible, etc.

    Granted, the current system isn't perfect but neither is there an obvious solution to make it perfect.
     
  26. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    I meant that this would happen on top of the existing routing guide, instead of the shortest route rule. The shortest route rule introduces massive loopholes. A quickest route rule would always allow the most reasonable journeys, as a backup / fallback almost.
     
  27. higthomas

    higthomas Member

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    Remember that to have station to station maps would produce over three million maps if my maths is right, which even if they only needed a check would still be a massive task.
     
  28. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    I disagree - I think people (and computer algorithms) have misinterpreted that rule when they ignore recognised transfers between nearby stations when applying it and then think they can justify ridiculously circuitous routes.
     
  29. PermitToTravel

    PermitToTravel Established Member

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    I agree with your thoughts, but of course the contract leaves it completely undefined what is meant by the shortest route.

    It should be codified that the fastest route rule includes transfers, each of fixed time as present, from an official list. And a computer program that can unambiguously say yes or no to any route.
     
  30. Cheds

    Cheds Member

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    So this is the third (at least) version of the routing guide to be in use in well under a year. I don't see how this helps passengers get a 'reliable' train service (since the permissions can and do vary). I also don't see how staff are supposed to keep up, or how it helps to have to revise front line staff training so often. And if training isn't given, that's just more confusion and problems isn't it?

    We seem to have route systems and for that matter fare structures which will put people off train travel.
     
  31. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    You mention staff training needing frequently revising in order to keep up with the ever evolving Routeing Guide.

    Unfortunately, I think a certain TOC up North ( ;) ) doesn't bother giving its staff training on the NRG as half of them don't even know what it is. Confusing? Try chaotic.
     

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