GTR/TfL policy to deny travel to smart/e-ticket holders during disruption/closures

yorkie · 24 May 2025

During disruptive incidents and planned engineering works, GTR arrange for tickets that don't normally include travel on London Underground/London Buses to be accepted by TfL on alternative routes.

However, this is only made available to holders of traditional paper tickets; customers who have taken GTR's advice by switching to Smart or e-tickets are being asked to pay again, to make journeys they have already paid for, i.e. be discriminated against on the basis of the medium on which the product is held.

In other words, two passengers can have the same product, having paid the same fare; one is told they can travel on alternative routes at no extra cost, while the other is told they have to pay again or be stranded.

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/service-updates/planned-engineering-work?date=2025-06-08#engineering-departure-board

Engineering work is taking place between London St Pancras International and London Blackfriars / London Bridge, closing all lines.

No trains will run between London St Pancras International and London Blackfriars / London Bridge...

Ticket acceptance: Paper tickets will be accepted on the following TfL services at no extra cost:

London Buses:

Blackfriars - Streatham (via Tulse Hill)

Streatham - Sutton (via Wimbledon)

Streatham - Sutton (via Mitcham)

Kings Cross St Pancras - London Bridge / Elephant & Castle

Kings Cross St Pancras - Kentish Town / Kentish Town West

London Trams:

Wimbledon – East Croydon

London Underground:

Victoria - Blackfriars

Kings Cross St Pancras - Farringdon / London Bridge / Elephant & Castle / Morden

Are they allowed to get away with discriminating people on the basis of the medium on which their ticket is held?

This goes against a long-standing principle of "what matters is the message, not the medium" (Roger Ford, Informed Sources, Modern Railways magazine, September 2005)

GTR are, on one hand, discriminating against the holders of more modern ticketing formats, while on the other hand, encouraging people to switch from paper tickets, to these new formats, on the basis of them being "smarter" and "quicker and easier":

https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets/the-key-smartcard

Our Key Smartcard is a smarter alternative to paper tickets, making it quicker and easier to buy a ticket.

eTicket readers speed rail passengers through every single ticket gate on GTR network | RailBusinessDaily

Rail passengers can now skip standing in line at stations for a ticket to ride by using pre-bought smartphone eTickets right across the vast 11-county Rail passengers can now skip standing in line at stations for a ticket to ride by using pre-bought smartphone eTickets right across the vast...

news.railbusinessdaily.com

GTR Customer Services Director Jenny Saunders said: “Getting your ticket with to ride with Gatwick Express, Great Northern, Southern and Thameslink has just got so much easier.

“Barcode eTickets are quick to buy online and convenient to use. They can now be used at every one of our ticket gates across our vast network. They’ll make everyone’s journey simpler.”

According to GTR's Customer Services Director, journeys are "simpler" if you avoid paper tickets; but how is it "simpler" to have to pay again to make a journey that should be covered with your existing ticket?

Smart tickets entice Gen Z back to the railway

Smart tickets are the future of rail according to a new survey commissioned by Govia Thameslink Railway with 58% of consumers saying they’d travel by train...

www.mynewsdesk.com

Head of innovation at GTR, Chief Finance Officer Ian McLaren, said, "Smart ticketing options are now available across the UK. GTR's Key Smartcard and eTickets offer an easier and faster way to buy, renew and use train tickets, compared to paper tickets....

“...We regularly consult our customers to better understand how we can tailor and improve the services we provide to their evolving needs. Our smart ticket options, available on Southern, Thameslink and Great Northern services, are a perfect example of technological innovation that offers access to better fares, automatic delay compensation notification and greater convenience when travelling.”

How is it more convenient for people to pay again, for a journey they have already paid for?

RailUK Forums

renegademaster · 24 May 2025

I feel like GTR don't really want to encourage etickets but have been pushed into by DfT and implement it half heartedly

Failed Unit · 24 May 2025

I must admit that I find this situation deeply annoying. It is the same during disruption when they say you can use your ticket via another route. In my case Welwyn Garden City, you suddenly get hit with a fare to St Albans as the keysmart card isn’t smart enough. The solution is of course speak to to the gate operator, they let you through.

If only we had a national standard for smart cards.

Last week we had many choices to make to get from A-B with the ECML closed, bus to Cockfosters (but needing to buy a paper tickets as tfl can’t read the key). Bus to St Albans - no check on the bus, but again double charged at St Albans if you use the key as KeyGo thinks you are wanting a single to the validity area of the season tickets.

e-tickets at least the gate staff can read them, I assume they are briefed so no idea why they are treated different to a paper ticket.

IrishDave · 24 May 2025

I wonder if perhaps the issue lies with TfL, not with GTR? How would a member of gateline staff in a London Underground station be able to read an e-ticket and determine that someone holds a valid ticket for travel on Thameslink that, during these engineering works, should be accepted by TfL? They could at least read a paper ticket with a Mark 1 eyeball. Perhaps someone in TfL has said no to accepting e-tickets during engineering works?

yorksrob · 24 May 2025

Equality for all formats of tickets.

GTR shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against electronic ticket holders.

Similarly, TOC's shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against passengers who want a paper ticket. Anything available electronically should be available on CCST.

Sonic1234 · 24 May 2025

renegademaster said:
I feel like GTR don't really want to encourage etickets but have been pushed into by DfT and implement it half heartedly

Indeed. They never went down the Merseyrail/TfL (or SE, initially) route of refusing but their heart was never in it. The number of e-tickets you see on GTR is testament to the popularity of the format, not GTR's commitment to it.

They seem to have made their Advances paper only again.

Probably stems from historic (pre-COVID, if not before) culture at GTR, where online sales and pre-booking was a minimal part of their business. It's the kind of railway that used to make the lions share of its money from season tickets, metro services (Oyster/Contactless) and on-the-day sales of Day Travelcards and Off-Peak Day Returns to the nearest big town. Advances were something of a novelty, hence they block them at gatelines.

redreni · 24 May 2025

I'm sure the TOCs will blame TfL, but ultimately, I agree entirely that the noises TOCs make about the benefits for passengers of e-tickets and Smartcards are overblown and lack balance.

If a passenger is using paper tickets and the TOC says to them "hey, it would be much easier and more convenient for you to use this e-ticket or PAYG" without also saying "but if you make the switch, we're going to deny you your delay repay in circumstances where we'd have paid it had you been using a paper ticket, and during disruption we're going to put ticket acceptance in place for paper tickets only", then they have not been entirely open and honest with that passenger.

Sonic1234 · 24 May 2025

redreni said:
I agree entirely that the noises TOCs make about the benefits for passengers of e-tickets and Smartcards are overblown and lack balance.

It's a benefit for the TOCs. They put the costs of ticketing on the passenger (to an extent, for now they still provide TVMs and ticket offices so the fixed costs are there) and they also harvest a lot more data - not just for revenue protection purposes but things like which services are used, how quickly connections are made, time spent at stations (inside the gates at least), frequency of travel etc. See also: pay by phone parking.

At least with Oyster you get a lower fare, or rather you pay the correct fare and avoid the paper premium.

Watershed · 24 May 2025

IrishDave said:
I wonder if perhaps the issue lies with TfL, not with GTR? How would a member of gateline staff in a London Underground station be able to read an e-ticket and determine that someone holds a valid ticket for travel on Thameslink that, during these engineering works, should be accepted by TfL? They could at least read a paper ticket with a Mark 1 eyeball. Perhaps someone in TfL has said no to accepting e-tickets during engineering works?

I think that's at the root of it, but it's not good enough denying existing ticket holders alternative transport.

Let's not forget that they are avoiding the expense of having to put on replacement buses by offering ticket acceptance on TfL services; if that ticket acceptance doesn't extend to digital ticket holders then, as an absolute minimum, they should be offering to reimburse any result at costs that such ticket holders incur.

If they don't like the idea of dealing with so many customer service claims, and can't convince TfL to accept digital tickets at their gatelines, then put on replacement buses that do accept digital tickets.

At the moment the attitude seems to be one of trying to have their cake and eat it, in every sense: wanting the reap the benefits of passengers transferring to digital tickets (e.g. cost savings and better revenue protection) and yet not fulfilling their basic contractual obligations in return.

renegademaster · 24 May 2025

Watershed said:
Let's not forget that they are avoiding the expense of having to put on replacement buses by offering ticket acceptance on TfL services;

Do you want them to be running a painfully slow replacement coach through London? If GTR get pressed on this, they'll block etickets on cross London Thameslinks again. If using e-tickets important to you, it's TfL that needs to be forced into accepting etickets.

Watershed · 24 May 2025

renegademaster said:
Do you want them to be running a painfully slow replacement coach through London?

Not particularly, but if it's that or telling digital ticket holders to go away, I know which option I prefer.

renegademaster said:
If GTR get pressed on this, they'll block etickets on cross London Thameslinks again. If using e-tickets important to you, it's TfL that needs to be forced into accepting etickets.

It's not just about eTickets though, it's also about smartcards - in particular smartcard season holders. You can't sell someone an annual/monthly season and then not honour that on certain days.

Benjwri · 24 May 2025

As I understand it TfL give a blanket no on accepting e tickets. This isn't a GTR issue, it happens with every TOC that arranges ticket acceptance with TfL, most just don't publish it and let their customers find out in a confrontation with TfL staff. GTR don't have the weight to throw around to fix that, it's something the DfT need to find a way to fix with TfL, however that may be.

Regarding replacement buses, as mentioned not only is it not feasible, the simple volume of cross London Thameslink passengers is too big, but if they did put on such a coach operation it would be an extraordinary waste of taxpayer money, given the amount of passengers who would actually choose to use such services.

Failed Unit · 24 May 2025

Watershed said:
Not particularly, but if it's that or telling digital ticket holders to go away, I know which option I prefer.

It's not just about eTickets though, it's also about smartcards - in particular smartcard season holders. You can't sell someone an annual/monthly season and then not honour that on certain days.

Which is my frustration, why can’t TfL gates read them? The smartcards have so many issues, this is one of them. The whole point of digital technology was you would thought could update in scenarios like this (or lines shut because of infrastructure damage etc)

Hopefully GBR rail will make this a thing of the past, although using Cockfosters on the piccadilly line will probably still be a no. (When the buses stop there to save passengers time)

Benjwri · 24 May 2025

Failed Unit said:
Which is my frustration, why can’t TfL gates read them? The smartcards have so many issues, this is one of them. The whole point of digital technology was you would thought could update in scenarios like this (or lines shut because of infrastructure damage etc)

Hopefully GBR rail will make this a thing of the past, although using Cockfosters on the piccadilly line will probably still be a no. (When the buses stop there to save passengers time)

TfL gates can read them, the issue is that they need to be updated to accept tickets which aren't usually valid before disruption, and then stop accepting after it. Possible for engineering works maybe, but not for unscheduled disruption.

redreni · 24 May 2025

Benjwri said:
TfL gates can read them, the issue is that they need to be updated to accept tickets which aren't usually valid before disruption, and then stop accepting after it. Possible for engineering works maybe, but not for unscheduled disruption.

The issue that the gates can read the ticket but can't decide to accept a ticket not normally valid is the same as with CCSTs. The only difference is TfL gateline staff can't manually inspect Smartcard tickets. Even though any of us could do exactly that provided we had a smartphone.

TfL's position as I understand it is that manual inspection of paper tickets during ticket acceptance is longstanding and they're willing to honour it, but manual inspection of other formats is a bit too difficult and slows things down too much. With e-tickets, I doubt it helps that their appearance is so variable and knocking up a convincing forgery (convincing as long as it isn't scanned) would be very easy.

In which case I would rather have a paper ticket, thank you very much, if there's any chance ticket acceptance on London Underground might be put in place. That attitude will only change when this issue is resolved.

Edvid · 24 May 2025

Following the recent trial of handheld Aztec code readers at certain NR/LU interchanges, I'd like to know TfL's latest position on fixed gateline readers and any changes to e-ticket acceptance that might follow. However their internal (bi)monthly newsletter is still on hiatus following last year's cyberattack.

MikeWM · 24 May 2025

renegademaster said:
I feel like GTR don't really want to encourage etickets but have been pushed into by DfT and implement it half heartedly

Maybe true in general, but whoever programmed the screens on the GN 387s certainly want to encourage it. They spend about 50% of their time telling us how paper tickets are terrible and we should all be using their app to buy tickets - and the other 50% of the time telling us all the ways we can be fined for not having a ticket, not having a charged phone, forgetting our railcard...... The difference compared to say Southern, that mostly use the same screens in a positive way to suggest nice places we might want to visit using their trains, is like chalk and cheese.

And yes, oddly enough all this on-train propaganda does not mention that there are disadvantages to not using paper tickets, as discussed here.

sheff1 · 24 May 2025

yorkie said:
Are they allowed to get away with discriminating people on the basis of the medium on which their ticket is held?

It would appear so

yorkie said:
According to GTR's Customer Services Director, journeys are "simpler" if you avoid paper tickets; but how is it "simpler" to have to pay again to make a journey that should be covered with your existing ticket?

How is it more convenient for people to pay again, for a journey they have already paid for?

It isn't.

If people are unhappy with this, they should avoid etickets and smartcards. I certainly do.

yorkie · 25 May 2025

sheff1 said:
It would appear so

On what lawful basis?

sheff1 said:
It isn't.

If people are unhappy with this, they should avoid etickets and smartcards. I certainly do.

Old style CCST paper tickets are becoming very rare these days; everything is moving towards barcode tickets.

Away from the London area, paper tickets are increasingly becoming the sort that LU don't accept, i.e. with an Aztec barcode and without a magnetic stripe.

There will come a day when you simply won't be able to get an old style CCST magstripe ticket.

This has been mentioned many times previously in other threads, so there's no need to debate that any further in this thread.

Watershed · 25 May 2025

Benjwri said:
As I understand it TfL give a blanket no on accepting e tickets. This isn't a GTR issue, it happens with every TOC that arranges ticket acceptance with TfL, most just don't publish it and let their customers find out in a confrontation with TfL staff. GTR don't have the weight to throw around to fix that, it's something the DfT need to find a way to fix with TfL, however that may be.

You're not wrong, but the correct way to deal with the situation then would be to offer to reimburse additional costs that ticket holders incur. It should also be made abundantly clear when buying a ticket in digital formats that these will have fewer rights in the event of disruption.

Benjwri said:
Regarding replacement buses, as mentioned not only is it not feasible

It's absolutely feasible, if the money is spent. Again, I'm not saying it's necessarily the right option here, but it's one of a set of options that GTR could choose between if they wanted to honour their contractual obligations.

Benjwri said:
the simple volume of cross London Thameslink passengers is too big, but if they did put on such a coach operation it would be an extraordinary waste of taxpayer money, given the amount of passengers who would actually choose to use such services.

The number of passengers can't simultaneously be too big and also too small! If added to journey planners, with a suitable addition to the interchange time data feed (so that TL-TL connections to/from replacement buses only require 10 mins rather than 15 for example) then it would show up as the quickest cross-London option for affected journeys. A substantial proportion of people will follow the suggested journey that apps like Trainline spit out, so they would use the replacement buses.

Failed Unit said:
Which is my frustration, why can’t TfL gates read them? The smartcards have so many issues, this is one of them. The whole point of digital technology was you would thought could update in scenarios like this (or lines shut because of infrastructure damage etc)

It's all possible, it's just a question of funding and getting heads bashed together. At the moment there is basically no attempt to align the incentives in a way that makes it work.

Benjwri · 25 May 2025

Watershed said:
The number of passengers can't simultaneously be too big and also too small!

I worded that a bit confusingly, my point was that there would be a huge amount of potential passengers each way, and the buses would need to be able to cater for this.

The fixed link to the tube between LBG and STP is 25 minutes, the non stop driving time without traffic is 20. I would counter most people would just Google Maps the cross London bit, which will direct you to the Northern Line, but you can’t count on that.

Richardr · 25 May 2025

I'm not sure very many people would use a replacement bus even if available. I've used the replacement bus from St Albans City to Potters Bar several times this year for onward travel into London. The first time earlier this year there were plenty of buses and I was the only one on the one I caught. Subsequently they have gone to a less frequent half hourly bus service and there must have been a maximum of 20 on the buses I've caught, usually fewer. This is a replacement for a service that is often virtually full 12 carriage trains four times an hour for the fast ones from St Albans plus plenty of slower trains.

As an aside they don't expect a ticket to be held on the replacement buses, and what's more if they did they have no way of checking Key cards or e-tickets. It does make it cheaper into London, offset by any additional tube cost, so not much different. That may not be the case for those travelling through London.

Sonic1234 · 25 May 2025

Richardr said:
I'm not sure very many people would use a replacement bus even if available

People really don't like travelling by bus. Replacement buses reduce the numbers travelling to those who absolutely have to make the journey.

It's why if looking at public transport options to get people to switch from cars, it needs to be on rails.

Non Multi · 25 May 2025

Sonic1234 said:
People really don't like travelling by bus. Replacement buses reduce the numbers travelling to those who absolutely have to make the journey.

It's why if looking at public transport options to get people to switch from cars, it needs to be on rails.

Bus travel is the most popular mode of public transport.

NTS 2023: Trends in public transport use and multi-modal public transport trips

www.gov.uk

island · 25 May 2025

This is quite simply down to the fact that TfL can't/don't/won't equip gateline staff with equipment allowing them to read and verify the details of tickets held on ITSO, whereas they can read paper tickets with the mark 1 human eyeball.

redreni · 25 May 2025

yorkie said:
On what lawful basis?

Old style CCST paper tickets are becoming very rare these days; everything is moving towards barcode tickets.

Away from the London area, paper tickets are increasingly becoming the sort that LU don't accept, i.e. with an Aztec barcode and without a magnetic stripe.

There will come a day when you simply won't be able to get an old style CCST magstripe ticket.

This has been mentioned many times previously in other threads, so there's no need to debate that any further in this thread.

Is it true that TfL don't accept PRT tickets?

It's certainly true they wouldn't work most of TfL's ticket barriers, but as we're talking about ticket acceptance during engineering work or disruption, that would be true of any ticket that is valid only by dint of special ticket acceptance. There's nothing in GTR's announcement regarding ticket acceptance to distinguish between CCST and PRT.

I can't find the thread just now, but I'm sure forum members have reported being sold PRT cross-London tickets by a train guard and having it accepted by staff on London Underground barriers, though obviously I accept that's anecdotal and may or may not be TfL's policy. Personally I would be more confident in them accepting a PRT if it was on the orange and cream stock rather than the even cheaper plain white variety.

I certainly think the question of what happens to passengers legitimately using a National Rail ticket on the tube is hardly an edge case and should have been sorted out in the very early days, and certainly before barcode-based tickets were rolled out at any great scale. It's been handled extremely badly, causing great inconvenience and upset and unjustifiable additional cost to passengers caught in the middle of this unresolved disagreement.

800Travel · 25 May 2025

Aware this could risk fare evasion, but surely if GTR can’t operate the trains, and can’t provide required equipment to very Smartcards are valid/loaded, they could just treat it as the following

Paper ticket - confirm validity
Smartcard - authorise passage on sight of possessing a smart card

And then you could scatter a few plain clothed RPIs at anticipated replacement travel hotspots to check smart cards.

Not an ideal approach I know, but this way at least it wouldn’t inconvenience those who are legitimately using smart cards as it seems unfair tbh

Benjwri · 25 May 2025

800Travel said:
Aware this could risk fare evasion, but surely if GTR can’t operate the trains, and can’t provide required equipment to very Smartcards are valid/loaded, they could just treat it as the following

Paper ticket - confirm validity

Smartcard - authorise passage on sight of possessing a smart card

And then you could scatter a few plain clothed RPIs at anticipated replacement travel hotspots to check smart cards.

Not an ideal approach I know, but this way at least it wouldn’t inconvenience those who are legitimately using smart cards as it seems unfair tbh

It would be TfL have to do that, and they’d still have to inspect and open gates manually, which they wouldn’t agree to, as this is their issue in the first place.

furlong · 26 May 2025

Provide staff at the relevant stations with the equipment to read the types of tickets TfL refuses to accept and to issue passengers with replacements in a suitable format covering the relevant journey segments? Basically pre-printed piles of tickets to hand out for the common journeys. Could be accompanied by a leaflet explaining the problem and encouraging affected passengers to join the train company in campaigning to make it unnecessary.

island · 26 May 2025

furlong said:
Provide staff at the relevant stations with the equipment to read the types of tickets TfL refuses to accept and to issue passengers with replacements in a suitable format covering the relevant journey segments? Basically pre-printed piles of tickets to hand out for the common journeys. Could be accompanied by a leaflet explaining the problem and encouraging affected passengers to join the train company in campaigning to make it unnecessary.

That would make far too much sense so it'll never happen.

GTR/TfL policy to deny travel to smart/e-ticket holders during disruption/closures

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