Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

StripeyNick · 23 May 2025

tfw756rider said:
Many thanks both

This now means that 20 (of 24) 756s have been in service.

3 (of 7) 3-coach 756s have been in service (756004/005/007)

All 17 4-coach 756s have been in service (756101/102/103/104/105/106/107/108/109/110/111/112/113/114/115/116/117)

==============================

The number of 756s still to enter service is down to 4, all of which are 3-coach units (756001/002/003/006)

==============================

The overall number of new Transport for Wales (TfW) trains that have been in service is now up to 96 (of 148):

39 (of 51) 197/0s
All 26 197/1s
All 11 231s
3 (of 7) 756/0s
All 17 756/1s

This leaves 52 new TfW trains still to enter service:

12 197/0s
36 398s
4 756/0s

place your bets.....which one will be next? I reckon 006

RailUK Forums

Peter Sarf · 24 May 2025

tfw756rider said:
@Envoy and @Peter Sarf, where did you get tri-mode from? That was the first I heard of that, and would turn the 231s into more 756s - am I missing something?

All that had been discussed until you guys' mentions of tri-mode had been about what was understood to be a conversion of the 231s to bi-mode units, which would make them more like 755s.

Sorry @tfw756rider. Probably is Bi-Mode.
The person I was replying to said Tr-Mode and I guess I had that in my head.
(will edit post)

Cardiff123 · 24 May 2025

I make it that just five 231s are out in service today. With the Caerphilly to Rhymney line open again, you'd think the 231s would be back in full service on the Rhymney / Bargoed - Barry Island diagrams. Instead 2 car 150s are still ploughing up and down on most Rhymney to Barry services, on a Rugby event day in Cardiff as well.

TT-ONR-NRN · 24 May 2025

Cardiff123 said:
I make it that just five 231s are out in service today. With the Caerphilly to Rhymney line open again, you'd think the 231s would be back in full service on the Rhymney / Bargoed - Barry Island diagrams. Instead 2 car 150s are still ploughing up and down on most Rhymney to Barry services.

The sooner they run out of miles the better. Force TfW into making an effort to use the right stock.

chrisjo · 24 May 2025

Cardiff123 said:
Instead 2 car 150s are still ploughing up and down on most Rhymney to Barry services, on a Rugby event day in Cardiff as well.

A rugby event between teams from England and France probably isn't going to place any significant demand on Rhymney - Barry services. Probably be reduced demand if anything as many will be avoiding travel to Cardiff if possible

Kite159 · 24 May 2025

TT-ONR-NRN said:
The sooner they run out of miles the better. Force TfW into making an effort to use the right stock.

Nah, they will just cancel the service citing a lack of rolling stock

Cardiff123 · 24 May 2025

In absence of mainline drivers being trained on 231s or 756s, one way to get the 150s off the Vale of Glamorgan line would be to split Rhymney / Caerphilly to Bridgend services at Cardiff Central and run 197s Bridgend - Barry - Cardiff and 231s Cardiff - Caerphilly / Rhymney.

But I suspect the 150s will keep running on VoG services for another 18 months or until they've all dropped dead.

Topological · 24 May 2025

Cardiff123 said:
In absence of mainline drivers being trained on 231s or 756s, one way to get the 150s off the Vale of Glamorgan line would be to split Rhymney / Caerphilly to Bridgend services at Cardiff Central and run 197s Bridgend - Barry - Cardiff and 231s Cardiff - Caerphilly / Rhymney.

But I suspect the 150s will keep running on VoG services for another 18 months or until they've all dropped dead.

Isn't the aim to get 231s out replacing 197s rather than finding more uses for 197s?

The 150s are at least staying near Cardiff now instead of running the long-distance services. I appreciate it is a long way via the VoG to Bridgend, but it is nothing compared to Manchester (which is one of the routes that gets 197s taken from it by way of short forms).

MikePJ · 24 May 2025

Topological said:
Isn't the aim to get 231s out replacing 197s rather than finding more uses for 197s?

As far as we know, the Metro stock cascade currently looks like:

- 3-car 756s are being introduced - so far 3 of the 7 have been in revenue service. None have yet run on their intended route between Coryton, Penarth and Caerphilly) and they're promised for "later in the summer". These are replacing 150s on that route.
- 398s are due "later this year" on the TAM services. There are still some 231s (and indeed some 150s) on the TAM services and so extra electric trains will release diesel ones for other duties.
- at some point TfW will need to have both enough units and enough driver-instructors available to train the mainline drivers on 231s and 756s. Finding spare units for training will have been a challenge when there was a shortage of stock for passenger services, so I can see why that's been put back (though obviously I can see why folks using the Vale of Glamorgan route to Bridgend are fed up with being on old units). I do wonder if they can only really handle one programme of driver training at a time - the 398 training has picked up as the Valleys 756 training finished, so perhaps we have to wait for the 398 training to be complete before the mainline drivers get to drive Stadler units.

Peter Sarf · 24 May 2025

MikePJ said:
As far as we know, the Metro stock cascade currently looks like:

- 3-car 756s are being introduced - so far 3 of the 7 have been in revenue service. None have yet run on their intended route between Coryton, Penarth and Caerphilly) and they're promised for "later in the summer". These are replacing 150s on that route.
- 398s are due "later this year" on the TAM services. There are still some 231s (and indeed some 150s) on the TAM services and so extra electric trains will release diesel ones for other duties.
- at some point TfW will need to have both enough units and enough driver-instructors available to train the mainline drivers on 231s and 756s. Finding spare units for training will have been a challenge when there was a shortage of stock for passenger services, so I can see why that's been put back (though obviously I can see why folks using the Vale of Glamorgan route to Bridgend are fed up with being on old units). I do wonder if they can only really handle one programme of driver training at a time - the 398 training has picked up as the Valleys 756 training finished, so perhaps we have to wait for the 398 training to be complete before the mainline drivers get to drive Stadler units.

Until all the 398s are in service the 231s and 756s will not get to their final stamping grounds away from the TAM lines.
When that happens the 150s will go and more 197s will be available for their intended routes outside South Wales.

The wait is because 398s are nowhere near all delivered and I expect training has a long way to go.
Not sure how ready the wires are on the TAM lines, currently good enough for 756s.
The intended routes for the 756s are not yet ready electrification wise any way.
I agree the TAM lines switching to 398s is probably the last hurdle.

It does take drivers away from services to carry out training and that training is pointless if the drivers competency expires before they can use it..

tigermonstera · 24 May 2025

Peter Sarf said:
Not sure how ready the wires are on the TAM lines, currently good enough for 756s.

Looking at TfW Board minutes (available here), it looks like the OLE works on the TAM lines are complete:

From May 2024, p. 5:

Treherbert energisation is due next week which will complete TAM energisation.

and from June 2024, p. 4:

The last month saw the successful energisation of the Treherbert line as well as ORR authorisation of both the Treherbert OLE system and the platform extensions on Aberdare and City Line stations. Although several infrastructure authorisation processes are due for completion in the year, this marks a significant milestone with the completion of all major infrastructure works on the TAM side of the network.

Peter Sarf · 25 May 2025

tigermonstera said:
Looking at TfW Board minutes (available here), it looks like the OLE works on the TAM lines are complete:

From May 2024, p. 5:

and from June 2024, p. 4:

Thanks. I keep forgetting the wires on the TAM lines might be completed. On my last visit to Taffs Well I swear I saw no wires and its stuck in my head. Of course it does not need to be 100% since the 398s have a battery for some range. Not as far as the 756s I assume but how far ?.

I really will miss the Flirts for my journeys up to Pontypridd from Cardiff and Penarth.

StripeyNick · 25 May 2025

Peter Sarf said:
Thanks. I keep forgetting the wires on the TAM lines might be completed. On my last visit to Taffs Well I swear I saw no wires and its stuck in my head. Of course it does not need to be 100% since the 398s have a battery for some range. Not as far as the 756s I assume but how far ?.

I really will miss the Flirts for my journeys up to Pontypridd from Cardiff and Penarth.

Batteries on the 398s don't even last double figures according to a chap who took a group of us around the depot

John R · 25 May 2025

Peter Sarf said:
Thanks. I keep forgetting the wires on the TAM lines might be completed. On my last visit to Taffs Well I swear I saw no wires and its stuck in my head. Of course it does not need to be 100% since the 398s have a battery for some range. Not as far as the 756s I assume but how far ?.

I really will miss the Flirts for my journeys up to Pontypridd from Cardiff and Penarth.

You won’t see wires at Taffs Well on the main line as it is one of the sections where the batteries are used to avoid wiring “complex areas”.

tfw756rider · 26 May 2025

StripeyNick said:
Batteries on the 398s don't even last double figures according to a chap who took a group of us around the depot

Double figures of what unit of time?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2025 ==

Peter Sarf said:
Sorry @tfw756rider. Probably is Bi-Mode.
The person I was replying to said Tr-Mode and I guess I had that in my head.
(will edit post)

No worries

I'm still not sure where @Envoy got tri-mode from for a conversion of the 231s, as I had only heard bi-mode.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2025 ==

Peter Sarf said:
The wait is because 398s are nowhere near all delivered and I expect training has a long way to go.

Do you (or anyone) know how many 398s have been delivered?

StripeyNick · 26 May 2025

tfw756rider said:
Double figures of what unit of time?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2025 ==

No worries I'm still not sure where @Envoy got tri-mode from for a conversion of the 231s, as I had only heard bi-mode.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2025 ==

Do you (or anyone) know how many 398s have been delivered?

Apologies, miles. They'll do something like 8 miles on battery apparently.

And in answer to the last question, 26 have been delivered so far

tfw756rider · 26 May 2025

StripeyNick said:
Apologies, miles. They'll do something like 8 miles on battery apparently.

And in answer to the last question, 26 have been delivered so far

Thanks

mansonlo49 · 26 May 2025

StripeyNick said:
Apologies, miles. They'll do something like 8 miles on battery apparently.

And in answer to the last question, 26 have been delivered so far

26 out of 36？not bad then

Bob Price · 26 May 2025

This is a screenshot of the schedule off Railcam, Coryton station, on 3rd June. Looks like test runs for the 756's could be starting. Originating from Barry Depot, to Coryton, back to Heath Junction and then up to Caerphilly.

Rhydgaled · 29 May 2025

John R said:
I’m not sure a decision has been made yet? Although TfW has to make it very soon from what I read. So I cannot imagine any have been done yet, I would have thought there would be a bit of a lead time once the order is placed before the first unit is ready to be done.

Peter Sarf said:
My impression is that the OPTION Stadler offered for the conversion of 231s to ~~Tri-Mode~~ Bi-Mode is expiring soon and this has prompted decision makers to, well erm, think about deciding !.

Yes, it is an OPTION and (as of 20th March 2025) TfW hadn't decided yet. Sadly, that statement called it a 'Hybrid' so we're none the wiser regarding bi-mode/tri-mode or other such details of what the possible modification involves.

positron · 29 May 2025

From everything previously published it was bi-mode rather than tri-mode. I don't imagine it'll be a fast overnight conversion probably more likely just taking one unit out at a time and converting it. Maybe during the beginning of the cascade?

I believe the previous board minutes didn't result in program approval but an approval to develop a business case to then approve. Though I was under the impression that the deadline was end of april so idk if they ended up exercising that option in the end. Would be a big waste not to imo.

Even though it's maximally a shortish stretch from Cardiff to caldicot that's electrified it's still a waste to run on diesel under the wires, when there's a minimal intervention to prevent that (as opposed to the 197a and mark 4s).

If they don't covert them it's indicative that they don't expect to get any further electrification anytime soon.

MikePJ · 30 May 2025

positron said:
Though I was under the impression that the deadline was end of april so idk if they ended up exercising that option in the end

An option is just a commercial contract which can be varied by agreement, so it’s possible that Stadler have agreed to extend the deadline while TfW go through the formal process of a business case.

Rhydgaled · 30 May 2025

positron said:
If they don't covert them it's indicative that they don't expect to get any further electrification anytime soon.

and, given the Welsh Government's "long-held objective" for more electrification, it would be rather counter-productive to miss an opportunity to reduce the proportion of the fleet which is unable to utilise electrification.

D6975 · 30 May 2025

Topological said:
The 150s are at least staying near Cardiff now instead of running the long-distance services. I appreciate it is a long way via the VoG to Bridgend, but it is nothing compared to Manchester (which is one of the routes that gets 197s taken from it by way of short forms).

Errr no they aren't staying near Cardiff, 150s are still doing Swansea-Shrewsbury which is both a long run and a fair schlep from Cardiff.

Jez · 30 May 2025

D6975 said:
Errr no they aren't staying near Cardiff, 150s are still doing Swansea-Shrewsbury which is both a long run and a fair schep from Cardiff.

True but to be fair the Heart of Wales and Crewe Local are booked for Sprinters so it isnt as much a big deal as when Sprinters went on the core Manchester-Cardiff route.

Topological · 30 May 2025

D6975 said:
Errr no they aren't staying near Cardiff, 150s are still doing Swansea-Shrewsbury which is both a long run and a fair schep from Cardiff.

They are not doing Manchester, which is what I said.

There is some rotation because of the Crewe-Shrewsbury and Heart of Wales being inter-worked. My understanding is that they would only use the late night short-workings to move stock around.

The complaints on this thread were about the VoG and hence my point that it is more suitable for 150s to be on the VoG than going to Manchester.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 May 2025 ==

Jez said:
True but to be fair the Heart of Wales and Crewe Local are booked for Sprinters so it isnt as much a big deal as when Sprinters went on the core Manchester-Cardiff route.

Indeed. The Heart of Wales is also in a transition stage with the work on the active travel 153s.

Also the 150s will be disappearing from the VoG. This is all just about the most suitable places for them to see out their last days.

D6975 · 30 May 2025

Topological said:
They are not doing Manchester, which is what I said.

But you also said

'The 150s are at least staying near Cardiff now instead of running the long-distance services.'

Which is what I was replying to.

The 153s are supposed to be taking over the HOWL, but anybody's guess as to when that will happen.

BillStampy · 30 May 2025

Bob Price said:
This is a screenshot of the schedule off Railcam, Coryton station, on 3rd June. Looks like test runs for the 756's could be starting. Originating from Barry Depot, to Coryton, back to Heath Junction and then up to Caerphilly.

This Sunday looks rather interesting! (Screenshot of Cardiff Central STPs on RTT for Sunday, 1st of June)

Bob Price · 30 May 2025

BillStampy said:
View attachment 181024
This Sunday looks rather interesting! (Screenshot of Cardiff Central STPs on RTT for Sunday, 1st of June)

Planning to go out and take some pictures if they run.

StripeyNick · 30 May 2025

BillStampy said:
View attachment 181024
This Sunday looks rather interesting! (Screenshot of Cardiff Central STPs on RTT for Sunday, 1st of June)

Ohhhh interesting! I'll have to get myself down to Penarth before/after work (not that the phot there will be that different to a 231)

Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

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