ECML Power Supply Upgrade

Trainbike46 · 11 May 2025

Bald Rick said:
I said it was not needed for the service specification that was expected at the time

When you say, "At the time", what time are you referring to? I was reading it as late 2020/2021, so after the situation of bimodes running diesel under the wires existed already? Am I misunderstanding?

EDIT for clarity: This is not intended as a criticism of you in any way, Bald Rick. I know you usually have a very good knowledge of what is happening, so hence my questions regarding when the descoping happened and whether the descoped section does in fact overlap with the section that has bimodes running diesel under the wires. It seems like an odd decision to descope power upgrades on a section of line where the OHLE isn't able to support current operations, so maybe I'm missing something?

Bald Rick said:
Regarding Lumo and 10 car trains. Do you think it would be a good use of the limited railway capital budget to spend tens of millions on power upgrades specifically to enable a privately funded oprator to carry more passengers from London to Edinburgh?

Probably not tbh, but then again, on a railway as path-constrained as the ECML, running 5-car trains on busy routes (by any operator) is similarly a waste. In the situation where there is not really enough capacity to Edinburgh, it does not make sense to run 5-car trains on London-Edinburgh, no matter the operator.
As others have already pointed out, while maybe you wouldn't upgrade it just for Lumo, there is also the many other services limited by the current situation. If/when XC starts running bimodes, this will only become more of an issue.#

GraphitProjekt said:
The project was halted mid-construction, so lots of the investment has already been spent just to create no benefit

Just to check, when exactly did this happen?

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Richard123 · 11 May 2025

Trainbike46 said:
When you say, "At the time", what time are you referring to? I was reading it as late 2020/2021, so after the situation of bimodes running diesel under the wires existed already? Am I misunderstanding?

EDIT for clarity: This is not intended as a criticism of you in any way, Bald Rick. I know you usually have a very good knowledge of what is happening, so hence my questions regarding when the descoping happened and whether the descoped section does in fact overlap with the section that has bimodes running diesel under the wires. It seems like an odd decision to descope power upgrades on a section of line where the OHLE isn't able to support current operations, so maybe I'm missing something?

Probably not tbh, but then again, on a railway as path-constrained as the ECML, running 5-car trains on busy routes (by any operator) is similarly a waste. In the situation where there is not really enough capacity to Edinburgh, it does not make sense to run 5-car trains on London-Edinburgh, no matter the operator.
As others have already pointed out, while maybe you wouldn't upgrade it just for Lumo, there is also the many other services limited by the current situation. If/when XC starts running bimodes, this will only become more of an issue.#

Just to check, when exactly did this happen?

To be fair to Bald Rick, at the time of cancellation the view from Milton Keynes was that ECML has far too many trains chasing each other to Edinburgh carrying fresh air, and that under GBR 2 trains an hour would be more than adequate.

They clearly didn't travel on ECML as shortage of demand isn't the problem

GraphitProjekt · 11 May 2025

Trainbike46 said:
Just to check, when exactly did this happen?

I don't know unfortunately, planning permission was granted in 2021, groundwork and some installation was happening still in late 2022 maybe?? All i can really do is keyword search this thread

Trainbike46 · 11 May 2025

GraphitProjekt said:
I don't know unfortunately, planning permission was granted in 2021, groundwork and some installation was happening still in late 2022 maybe?? All i can really do is keyword search this thread

Sometime between 2021 and the present day is precise enough, I'd say

Narrowgauge725 · 11 May 2025

I could never and still don't understand why a franchise (TPE) has to run diesel and an open access (Lumo) was allowed to use pure electric, if Lumo wanted to run electric they should have contributed to the upgrade of the supply.

swt_passenger · 11 May 2025

Narrowgauge725 said:
I could never and still don't understand why a franchise (TPE) has to run diesel and an open access (Lumo) was allowed to use pure electric, if Lumo wanted to run electric they should have contributed to the upgrade of the supply.

When this came up for discussion about two years ago, I thought it was because LUMO bid for their paths well before TPE, and TPE north of Newcastle was never a firm DFT requirement. So effectively LUMO‘s pure electric stock was approved on a first come first served basis.

Narrowgauge725 · 12 May 2025

swt_passenger said:
When this came up for discussion about two years ago, I thought it was because LUMO bid for their paths well before TPE, and TPE north of Newcastle was never a firm DFT requirement. So effectively LUMO‘s pure electric stock was approved on a first come first served basis.

That is interesting and explains why thanks

GraphitProjekt · 31 May 2025

Why is there a feeder station at Ferme Park? What does it do, it's pretty much next door to Wood Green so how can they both feed at once?

Nicholas Lewis · 31 May 2025

GraphitProjekt said:
Why is there a feeder station at Ferme Park? What does it do, it's pretty much next door to Wood Green so how can they both feed at once?

I recollect Wood Green was the original Feeder Stn installed as part of Great Northern Electrification in 1976 and Ferme Pk was added after to reinforce this section although im pretty sure it wasn't done at the time ECML was electrified beyond Hitchin. Originally CEGB were against connection at above 132kV, Elvanfoot (WCML) being an exception at 275kV, so these were both connected at Hornsey 132kV Grid Supply Point.

GraphitProjekt · 31 May 2025

Nicholas Lewis said:
I recollect Wood Green was the original Feeder Stn installed as part of Great Northern Electrification in 1976 and Ferme Pk was added after to reinforce this section although im pretty sure it wasn't done at the time ECML was electrified beyond Hitchin. Originally CEGB were against connection at above 132kV, Elvanfoot (WCML) being an exception at 275kV, so these were both connected at Hornsey 132kV Grid Supply Point.

Okay so are Wood Green and Ferme Park are on the same phase so they can both supply simultaneously? Or is it that Ferme Park powers the route up to Wood Green neutral section - and then Wood Green FS feeds the Hertford Loop beyond Bowes Park neutral section. Having looked at Ferme Park and Wood Green on public UKPN documents each have their own 132/25 transformers off Hornsey grid.

There were a series of upgrade works done to the power supply in the years after the full opening in 1991, so maybe then? This was especially around Peterborough and then later in 2001 with Coreys Mill grid connection supplying Hitchin and Langley Jnc feeder stations with new mid points at Hertford North and Litllington.

59CosG95 · 31 May 2025

Nicholas Lewis said:
I recollect Wood Green was the original Feeder Stn installed as part of Great Northern Electrification in 1976 and Ferme Pk was added after to reinforce this section although im pretty sure it wasn't done at the time ECML was electrified beyond Hitchin. Originally CEGB were against connection at above 132kV, Elvanfoot (WCML) being an exception at 275kV, so these were both connected at Hornsey 132kV Grid Supply Point.

Might Ferme Park have been added once the IC225s (first 90s, then 91s) came on stream? Not being around when it happened, I don't know whether Bounds Green Depot was wired from day dot.

Langley Jn FS was certainly added later, ISTR, and both it and Hitchin FS were fed from Wymondley. (Both were, of course, redundant when the supply was consolidated to Corey's Mill)

GraphitProjekt · 3 Jun 2025

Found it on the UKPN side finally! (Also note Railtrack Northumberland Park for the WAML, and Manor House LUL)

The fact they're on different 132kV lines from Tottenham suggests they run separately (not on the same phase). So I'll tentatively conclude Ferme Park is Kings Cross/Drayton Road to Wood Green OHNS - and Wood Green FS is normally Bowes Park OHNS to Hertford North MTPSC. I think the mainline northwards from Wood Green is Welwyn B?

thecrofter · 3 Jun 2025

59CosG95 said:
Might Ferme Park have been added once the IC225s (first 90s, then 91s) came on stream? Not being around when it happened, I don't know whether Bounds Green Depot was wired from day dot.

Langley Jn FS was certainly added later, ISTR, and both it and Hitchin FS were fed from Wymondley. (Both were, of course, redundant when the supply was consolidated to Corey's Mill)

In tin-hut days, Bounds Green Depot used to be fed from Wood Green via a separate Circuit Breaker (WG-9) off of the North (of the 3) busbars it had. That single circuit became the test bed for the first Siemens Siprotec Protection relay. It now has its own independent supply from Ferme Park (FP250) as I'm sure you know.

GraphitProjekt · 3 Jun 2025

You can actually see FP250 from google streetview!

ECML Power Supply Upgrade

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