South WCML substations

thecrofter · 2 Jun 2025

Ah, I see your confusion and yes, that drawing is a tad misleading.

As for Camden TSC, it is one of the original WCML Switchgear & Cowans K11 equipment of 1960's vintage that had cable feeds underneath the substation slab hence no outward signs of it being a connected to the OLE.

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GraphitProjekt · 2 Jun 2025

thecrofter said:
Ah, I see your confusion and yes, that drawing is a tad misleading.

As for Camden TSC, it is one of the original WCML Switchgear & Cowans K11 equipment of 1960's vintage that had cable feeds underneath the substation slab hence no outward signs of it being a connected to the OLE.

Yeah this seems to be the style of original WCML Mrk1 installations. Something similar going on at Wembley TSC as well. Most of the substations on similar era GEML lines I'm more familiar with seem to have been rebuilt in the 1980s metal-box building with bushings format.

Another (2014) UKPN document I found made mention to a North Pole feeder station on the next-door 132kV circuit to one of Acton Lane's. Does that operate simultaneously to Acton Lane or was it removed when North Pole depot became connected to the GWML?

Elecman · 2 Jun 2025

GraphitProjekt said:
Thanks for that, there's not as much of an obvious lineside building with bushings coming out of it one would expect so I suppose it's all connected by ducted cables from somewhere. As it happens, I chanced across the DC substation named "Camden" on about what googlemaps says no.38 Gloucester Avenue is. Also on that road, there is a squat whitewashed 1960s-ish brick building between apartment blocks and the big "number 36" block; that's my suspect for where Camden TSC's equipment is.

View attachment 181184
This rather confusing diagram I've found on a letter from NwR about constrained power capacity. Now that I looked at it with fresher eyes, I see I've made a complete error in comprehending what it was trying to say - my bad. Now that I know what Brunel Road TSC is, I suppose "Acton Ln FS extension" is an extension made in the 1990s for NLL wiring - not in 2018 for the T&H.

Your correct with that location of Camden DC Substation and TSC

GraphitProjekt · 2 Jun 2025

Elecman said:
Your correct with that location of Camden DC Substation and TSC

that was the last Watford DC substation I was looking for, they're all now on openinframap.org - they only one that eludes me is Harlesden TSC because where-ever it is it's very close to the track feeds that must be Acton Lane.

bramling · 2 Jun 2025

GraphitProjekt said:
that was the last Watford DC substation I was looking for, they're all now on openinframap.org - they only one that eludes me is Harlesden TSC because where-ever it is it's very close to the track feeds that must be Acton Lane.

Harlesden is a TSL not a TSC. It’s just north of Harlesden station. Being a TSL most of the switchgear is structure mounted, with only a small container building.

Richard123 · 3 Jun 2025

thecrofter said:
The seven West Coast National Grid (AT) sites were procured as part of the original WCRM budget and included in that overall total (£9.6b) so that's why you won't find them in any subsequent PSU figures. The last site to be completed was Frodsham / Weaver (2009) and cost around £32m (that's National Grid costs only).

Interesting - so £60m in today's infrastructure money for the grid side works.

That's one of the other things that makes totalling it hard, construction price inflation with works done in various control periods over 20+ years.

And the mix of OLE work done in the original WCRM, exemption from schedule 4 costs during original WCRM (with weekend closures for years that most upgrades would dream of) but then included from 2008...

thecrofter · 3 Jun 2025

Richard123 said:
Interesting - so £60m in today's infrastructure money for the grid side works.

That's one of the other things that makes totalling it hard, construction price inflation with works done in various control periods over 20+ years.

The West Coast Grid sites varied enormously in complexity and cost - National Grid were finding their feet too. Some involved difficult cable routes (e.g. Bushey cables run through Watford High Street from Elstree!) whilst Leighton Buzzard was built (conveniently, but not as it turned out) directly adjacent to the Sundon-East Claydon 400 kV transmission line so apples and pears really.

Edvid · 3 Jun 2025

thecrofter said:
Bushey cables run through Watford High Street from Elstree!

Until this thread I didn't even know the Bushey site was already a feeder station. Or - by extension - that NG Elstree supplies two feeder stations on different lines / is all but midway between them.

[Borehamwood (MML) is the other one]

GraphitProjekt · 3 Jun 2025

The classic feeder station for the MML at Grahame Park is also basically fed from Elstree NG. It's tee'd off from one (of the 2) 132kV lines between Elstree NG and Hendon UKPN

Edvid · 3 Jun 2025

Yes, but I'm thinking of dedicated connections from the NG 400/25kV supergrid transformers. (Or is the Bushey feed routed through DNO assets as well?)

Also, there are longstanding plans for Bushey to gain a second circuit / requisite neutral section and the feeding system to be upgraded from classic to autotransformer (south of Bourne End), but they've essentially been pushed back to 2028.

GraphitProjekt · 3 Jun 2025

Edvid said:
Yes, but I'm thinking of dedicated connections from the NG 400/25kV supergrid transformers. (Or is the Bushey feed routed through DNO assets as well?)

Due to the way things have developed in that area, architecturally speaking there's no other substation between Grahame Park and NG Elstree - but yes I see your point. (In the realm of true 'fun-facts', said Hendon 132 also supports Neasden 132/22 bulk supply point for TfL)

Edvid said:
Also, there are longstanding plans for Bushey to gain a second circuit / requisite neutral section and the feeding system to be upgraded from classic to autotransformer (south of Bourne End), but they've essentially been pushed back to 2028.

From the discussion earlier, it seems the second grid supply is already there ready to go, it's just the rest of the AT equipment on the OLE - I think the ATs have been installed at North Wembley even.

Class 170101 · 3 Jun 2025

thecrofter said:
whilst Leighton Buzzard was built (conveniently, but not as it turned out) directly adjacent to the Sundon-East Claydon 400 kV transmission line so apples and pears really.

Why was it convenient then and is not convenient now?

Elecman · 4 Jun 2025

Interesting that the Ooeninfra map still shows the old Wolverton 25kV Feeder station and the 132 cables over the railway, both been gone over 3years

GRALISTAIR · 4 Jun 2025

@GraphitProjekt - I saw this on another thread. Not sure how relevant it is.

https://www.thepwi.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/08_Electrification_Regional-plans-for-the-future_D-Chauke.pdf

NW&C 25kV Future Electrification requirements Dean Chauke - Network Rail

A lt of maps and good information on WCML in particular feeders and limitations etc.

GraphitProjekt · 4 Jun 2025

GRALISTAIR said:
@GraphitProjekt - I saw this on another thread. Not sure how relevant it is.

https://www.thepwi.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/08_Electrification_Regional-plans-for-the-future_D-Chauke.pdf

A lt of maps and good information on WCML in particular feeders and limitations etc.

I see you've been going through the PWI offerings - there's some great diagrams in there, the one about 3rd rail by Tony Hutchinson/Rob Fella is great as well. I've had a tab open with that one from Dean Chauke for months now - on my "I will get to it" pile. The diagram at the end is most useful although quite awkward to interpret.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jun 2025 ==

Elecman said:
Interesting that the Ooeninfra map still shows the old Wolverton 25kV Feeder station and the 132 cables over the railway, both been gone over 3years

Just a bunch of nerds like myself on OpenInfra, not a lot of them are clued up on railway affairs tbh. I'll go and change it in a minute.
Bit of a strange affair having a tiny 132kV cable from the next-door Bradwell Abbey Grid instead of installing the traction transformers at the grid substation. Is there a strange historical reason for that? Like perhaps the railway substation significantly predating Bradwell Abbey?
---
On a different note, does anyone know what's up with North Pole feeder station? If it does anything or what it used to do?

thecrofter · 5 Jun 2025

Class 170101 said:
Why was it convenient then and is not convenient now?

I didn't say it was not convenient now, but the chosen location presented challenges that were not fully foreseen until detailed design. National Grid (and Network Rail) were finding their feet with these sites back in the early 2000's so whilst the site appeared an ideal location for both the railway and the available 400 kV transmission line, the necessity to have a safe site fully protected in the event of a 400 kV fault to earth (known as a Rise of Earth Potential (RoEP)), wasn't helped by having an adjacent quarry that had removed the very earth that could have helped the situation. Hindsight suggested the Grid equipment may have been better placed another tower away from the railway. You live and learn.

m0ffy · 5 Jun 2025

GraphitProjekt said:
Bit of a strange affair having a tiny 132kV cable from the next-door Bradwell Abbey Grid instead of installing the traction transformers at the grid substation. Is there a strange historical reason for that? Like perhaps the railway substation significantly predating Bradwell Abbey?

This is very common engineering practice in the East Midlands and likely beyond. Tamworth Town 132/25 was a few hundred yards from the rest of the substation. My understanding is it’s about ensuring contracted power quality at the point of connection.

GraphitProjekt · 6 Jun 2025

m0ffy said:
This is very common engineering practice in the East Midlands and likely beyond. Tamworth Town 132/25 was a few hundred yards from the rest of the substation. My understanding is it’s about ensuring contracted power quality at the point of connection.

Maybe it was also the done thing in BR days, the only BR era feeder cables that come to mind for me are Springfield and Norwich though I'm sure there are a few others. But the grid connections on GWML quite some way off with surprisingly long 25kV feeders (or technically 50kV I suppose), but shorter feeders are quite common. An equivalent situation might be Pudding Mill Lane where the traction transformers are very clearly on the NG substations with short underground cables across the road to the NwR switching station.

hwl · 7 Jun 2025

GraphitProjekt said:
Maybe it was also the done thing in BR days, the only BR era feeder cables that come to mind for me are Springfield and Norwich though I'm sure there are a few others. But the grid connections on GWML quite some way off with surprisingly long 25kV feeders (or technically 50kV I suppose), but shorter feeders are quite common. An equivalent situation might be Pudding Mill Lane where the traction transformers are very clearly on the NG substations with short underground cables across the road to the NwR switching station.

The are some probably outdated legal issues (it has been a while since I had to deal with it so hopefully things have improved...) .
Turning the clock back to BR / pre privatised electricity era, demand connections were always assumed to be 132kV or below and would be done though what is now termed you local DNO i.e. no grid connections for end users.
Post privatisation this persisted and the way round this to get round this and have connections from 400/275kV was to run some cables under a tiny patch of land owned / leased to the tame DNO. (e.g. some NG 400kV to NR 33kV 3rd rail supply network.)
I think the situation has some what improved more recently being forced by an EU directive on renewable grid connections and an unusual* BEIS/OFGEM interpretation of the EU directive on HV supply cables from wind turbines/large solar that caused more headaches.

*every other country at the time took the common sense approach

Richard123 · 7 Jun 2025

BR made demand connections at 275kV where there was no alternative. However the cost (capital and annual) and space required are much, much higher at 275/400kV, and the supergrid network doesn’t coincide much with best locations for railway operations, compared to 132kV that is both more extensive and was built into the same industrial centres the railway was built to serve.

So more a case of BR and CEGB preferring connection at 132kV, than legal difficulties forcing it. The amount of greenfield land required for new supergrid connections still means the railway generally has to demonstrate that there is no reasonable alternative, in order to gain planning permission. Power quality issues have however in recent decades forced the increasing use of supergrid connections over 132kV.

WAO · Tuesday at 10:12

GraphitProjekt said:
That would be quite good indeed. As it stands, I'm out here piecing together some best guesses from hints and suggestions I come across. Mostly from this forum but also random corporate bulletins and the occasional highly detailed PWI seminar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flpQBPw3oPA this one is very interesting, up to date and all about power constraints on the WCML. From the slides that you can download on the website, I've got a good source for grid connections and mid-points. From this PWI seminar and another one on the West London Orbital London Overground line i've learned that there is an ATS at Hunsbury Hill (Northampton), and a TSC right out of Euston at Camden Jnc.

We are immensely grateful for the graphical collation of the railway electrification material added to the NG map.

I was pleased to see my little Sulzer 33kV site in South Leeds; when I worked there we had to have special permission to use the test bed (my first job was a 1.5MW motor test!) After the rebuilding they received their own supply, evidently.

Have you seen the following site?

Neutral sections

A list of all known UK railway electrification neutral sections with engineers' line reference and mileage

www.railwaycodes.org.uk

This gives extensive lists but not always with designations (eg FS, ATFS, TSC MPTSC ATS etc..). It also gives dates.

I'm also curious about the little Speke site, together with the Willow Park and Parkside stations; and where the Crewe lineside site is.

Many thanks,

WAO

GraphitProjekt · Tuesday at 16:06

WAO said:
We are immensely grateful for the graphical collation of the railway electrification material added to the NG map.

What map are you referring to? Is it openinframap.org

WAO said:
http://openinframap.org
http://openinframap.org
Have you seen the following site?
http://openinframap.org

Neutral sections

A list of all known UK railway electrification neutral sections with engineers' line reference and mileage

www.railwaycodes.org.uk

http://openinframap.org
This gives extensive lists but not always with designations (eg FS, ATFS, TSC MPTSC ATS etc..). It also gives dates

Yes it's my go to for starting out with a project. I've even dug deep enough in the anglia region to find evidence of a few ancient ones they don't have there (from the 6.25kV era).
http://openinframap.org
Collating ohns locations with the 2009 RUS info on grid locations should serve to build a decent picture of the situation essentially as BR left it, as 2009 is right before all the major recent works. Something i might do when im done with my current projects (london railway substations, anglia historical feeding)

WAO said:
I'm also curious about the little Speke site, together with the Willow Park and Parkside stations; and where the Crewe lineside site is.

I think Speke feeder station feeds up to Lime street and edge hill while speke to weaver jnc is fed classic by Weaver Jnc ATFS which also feeds south to Crewe (again classically) but also up to Euxton Jnc MPATS with AT.

Willow Park is the ATFS for chat moss route and st helens line (classically). But it can be arranged to feed wcml if needed. I'm not sure how many supplies there are at Willow Park but i think it might be one, with Willow Park to Ordsall/Euxton to Ordsall fed from Stalybridge via the extension lead

There are a lot of auxiliary neutral sections around that area, ie ones that normally switch the same supply on either side but come into use in various degraded situations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 16:25 ==

This is the picture I'm going off which was posted by @thecrofter a few years ago. It may not be fully up to date now with regards to "Edgeley FS" in central Manchester.

thecrofter · Tuesday at 16:51

Currently for the normal feeding arrangement, Weaver only feeds the WCML (South to Crewe and North to Euxton) with Speke FS feeding both ways. For added interest, before Weaver ATFS was energised in 2009, both Speke FS and Parkside FS (since replaced by Willow Park which has two feeders btw) had to have their phase rotations changed to avoid a 180° clash with Weaver!

GraphitProjekt · Tuesday at 17:26

thecrofter said:
Currently for the normal feeding arrangement, Weaver only feeds the WCML (South to Crewe and North to Euxton) with Speke FS feeding both ways. For added interest, before Weaver ATFS was energised in 2009, both Speke FS and Parkside FS (since replaced by Willow Park which has two feeders btw) had to have their phase rotations changed to avoid a 180° clash with Weaver!

This is the kind of off-topic I'd want anyway! Thank you for that, very helpful.
I have often wondered whats going on in Manchester, i made this sketch for my assumptions which i hope to get some corrections from. Stalybridge to Victoria/Guide Bridge is very recent so wonder how the hadfield line was powered beforehand considering the neutral section at adwick

Class 170101 · Tuesday at 21:00

thecrofter said:
Currently for the normal feeding arrangement, Weaver only feeds the WCML (South to Crewe and North to Euxton) with Speke FS feeding both ways. For added interest, before Weaver ATFS was energised in 2009, both Speke FS and Parkside FS (since replaced by Willow Park which has two feeders btw) had to have their phase rotations changed to avoid a 180° clash with Weaver!

Sorry you will have to explain about phase rotations to avoid 180 clash with Weaver. I don't know what you mean?

WAO · Tuesday at 23:29

There's also Appendix B of BR's "Working Instructions for Electrified Lines", if you can source one.

My 1967 edition also has tables of Water Columns in AC areas where it is permissible to climb upon locomotives and tenders!

WAO

GraphitProjekt · Wednesday at 00:50

I was able to purchase hard copies for the initial installs of LTS and GEML/North East london (1960). I think they probably stopped making those after the 1960s

GRALISTAIR · Wednesday at 01:29

Class 170101 said:
Sorry you will have to explain about phase rotations to avoid 180 clash with Weaver. I don't know what you mean?

Normally with 3 phase supply each of the phases is 2/3 pi radians out of sync or 120 degrees as there are 2pi radians in 360 degrees. With AT the phases are in effect pi radians or 180 degrees Out of phase. So balancing and great care is needed or spectacular explosions can occur.

thecrofter · Wednesday at 16:48

GraphitProjekt said:
This is the kind of off-topic I'd want anyway! Thank you for that, very helpful.
I have often wondered whats going on in Manchester, i made this sketch for my assumptions which i hope to get some corrections from. Stalybridge to Victoria/Guide Bridge is very recent so wonder how the hadfield line was powered beforehand considering the neutral section at adwick

You'll need a "North WCML Substations" thread for that.

South WCML substations

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