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West Coast Mk1s

renegademaster

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Have they given up trying to run these on the mainline? Theirs been no news about fitting CDL, nor do they or their sympathetic MPs seem to be campaigning to get the exemption back anymore. They seem to just be making do with the mark 2s , especially since they merged with Rivera , however they own a bunch of vac braked steam locos they can't do much with unless the Mk1s can return.
 
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Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
I suspect you are correct in that they have as good as given up. They made a not insubstantial amount of noise about exemptions and funding woes to retrofit the stock, no doubt in the hope that some tourism body or or similar might pay for some of it. But like you I've heard nothing
 

43096

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Have they given up trying to run these on the mainline? Theirs been no news about fitting CDL, nor do they or their sympathetic MPs seem to be campaigning to get the exemption back anymore. They seem to just be making do with the mark 2s , especially since they merged with Rivera , however they own a bunch of vac braked steam locos they can't do much with unless the Mk1s can return.
They will not get a further examption without a binding commitment to fit CDL in an agreed timeframe. If the ORR did anything else they'd be facing legal claims from those operators that have complied.
 

Masbroughlad

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If they don't do it? Sell to heritage railways? Sell for scrap? Sell to LSL/ANother for them to fit CDL and take the market?

Acetylene torch beckons? I do hope not.
 

fgwrich

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If they don't do it? Sell to heritage railways? Sell for scrap? Sell to LSL/ANother for them to fit CDL and take the market?

Acetylene torch beckons? I do hope not.
Nope. They’ve done well out of hiring them to a lot of Pres Railways (Embsay, South Devon, Spa Valley to name a few). They are still earning money for the company, if not being used on the mainline. And I suspect this arrangement will continue until they decide to either return them to the mainline with the required changes, or keep them hired out.
 

gingerheid

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Commercial manager James Shuttleworth added: “They're being used as they are already fitted with central door locking until such time as we gain an exemption for the Mark 1 vehicles. Dialogue is on-going with the ORR.

Dialogue? Really?

Is the dialogue something like:

"Pleeeease"
"No"
"Pleeeeeease"
"No"
"But I'll be good!"
"No"?
 

Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
I'm sorry but what kind of LaLa land are they in if they think an exemption is forthcoming? Definition of insanity springs to mind as does a picture of toddler who thinks that repeatedly asking for something will eventually grind there. Adult companion down and produce it. The money they make on that Jacobite alone must surely be enough to either pay for the work or do what anyone else might do in this situation. And go wizard's hat in hand to the bank manager and ask him to lend them the money for it. A couple of years, five at most and the money would be paid back. Either that or they put a tender out for something new and appropriate for running these trains, I'm sure there's nothing in the rules that says the carriages couldn't have for half opening windows that would allow the sounds and smells whilst not allowing passengers body parts out and of course they would have automatic doors already fitted
 

renegademaster

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'm sure there's nothing in the rules that says the carriages couldn't have for half opening windows that would allow the sounds and smells whilst not allowing passengers body parts
They've already fitted opening windows to a few of the mark 2 coaches.
 

BlueLeanie

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Either that or they put a tender out for something new and appropriate for running these trains,

That's not such a bad idea, realistically though, how much would a fake Mk1 compartment or open carriage cost to build?

I've been on the fake Mk1 cable-cars at Universal and they looked great.
 

Russel

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That's not such a bad idea, realistically though, how much would a fake Mk1 compartment or open carriage cost to build?

I've been on the fake Mk1 cable-cars at Universal and they looked great.

With all the modern safety requirements, it would be so far from a Mk1 that I doubt it would be worth it.

That said, I'd like to see it though.
 

BRX

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Just looking at the Jacobite website it appears it's fully booked out for the entire summer. Is that really true?
 

JonathanH

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Just looking at the Jacobite website it appears it's fully booked out for the entire summer. Is that really true?
It wouldn't be that surprising. Some of the seats are sold to tour operators, and it is a key tourist attraction in that area. The car park at Glenfinnan is also oversubscribed with people wanting to take photographs of it.
 

JKF

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It’s not just the opening windows, it’s the wooden panelling, the smell of the upholstery. An open Mk2 carriage just doesn’t feel like an old train.
 

Wyrleybart

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Dialogue? Really?

Is the dialogue something like:

"Pleeeease"
"No"
"Pleeeeeease"
"No"
"But I'll be good!"
"No"?

Exactly. Every other charter stock supplier committed to a programme of fitting CDL to their stock - hence being granted exemptions. WCR's owners / directors refused to put their hands in their pockets so were denied any further exemptions in November 2023. As a result they have vacuum braked steam locos sitting around Carnforth shed with boiler certificates ebbing away.

I believe the NELPG are hoping to complete the restoration of K1 62005 this year, and it is alleged WCR would like it to work the Jacobite but....... the K1 is vacuum only and WCR do not yet have any vacuum braked stock fitted with CDL. Vintage Trains at Tyseley do !!!
 
Last edited:

peteb

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It’s not just the opening windows, it’s the wooden panelling, the smell of the upholstery. An open Mk2 carriage just doesn’t feel like an old train.
Except when it's a Mk2A with opening ventilators eg: the TSO's operated by vintage trains.
 

Dave S 56F

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Exactly. Every other charter stock supplier committed to a programme of fitting CDL to their stock - hence being granted exemptions. WCR's owners / directors refused to put their hands in their pockets so were denied any further exemptions in November 2023. As a result they have vacuum braked steam locos sitting around Carnforth shed with boiler certificates ebbing away.

I believe the NELPG are hoping to complete the restoration of K1 62005 this year, and it is alleged WCR would like it to work the Jacobite but....... the K1 is vacuum only and WCR do not yet have any vacuum braked stock fitted with CDL. Vintage Trains at Tyseley do !!!
I think Wyrleybart it would be very highly unlikely that V.T. at Tyseley loco wks wouldn't hire or even do the jacobite trains for 2 reasons:
1. Is that V.T. run their own railtours in Wales the east and west midlands nearly all year round from March and thus do the shakespeare tours and are currently solely the only G.W.R. society only currently running G.W.R. style coaching stock although their carriages are chocolate and cream M.K. 2,s.
2. Is that V.T. only have 1 full rake of carriages they do own a mix of 24 carriages wether or not there all operational and all C.D.L. fitted I wouldn't be sure on although when I go out with V.T. regularly on their tours they usually take 9 carriages behind 5043 E.o.M.E. or 7029 Clun castle Inc the GUV water carrier.
 

JonathanH

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I think Wyrleybart it would be very highly unlikely that V.T. at Tyseley loco wks wouldn't hire or even do the jacobite trains for 2 reasons:
More importantly, the carriages that Vintage Trains run have vacuum brakes to match their locomotives. Without that set of coaches they can't operate.
 

yorksrob

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It’s not just the opening windows, it’s the wooden panelling, the smell of the upholstery. An open Mk2 carriage just doesn’t feel like an old train.

This is very true.

A mk1 provides a very distinct passenger experience in itself.
 

Wyrleybart

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More importantly, the carriages that Vintage Trains run have vacuum brakes to match their locomotives. Without that set of coaches they can't operate.
Oh yes. Vintage Trains have their own programme and obviously would not prejudice that. The point i didn't really expand on is their precedent for operating vacuum braked Mk1and Mk2s in commercial service on Network Rail metals.

WCR could easily convert exactly the same designs of their own vehicles at Carnforth, but IMHO messrs Smith and Shuttleworth choose not to do that. Because of that the Railway Touring Company are forced to travel in "sealed" air-conditioned Mk2 Intercity stock. The last two Great Britain annual tours have been formed thus
 

DelW

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It’s not just the opening windows, it’s the wooden panelling, the smell of the upholstery. An open Mk2 carriage just doesn’t feel like an old train.

This is very true.

A mk1 provides a very distinct passenger experience in itself.

Does that actually matter to most Jacobite passengers though? I think that most of them will be there for some combination of a scenic day out, and the Harry Potter train connection. Most of them have probably never been on a real Mk1 to compare the experience with.

Plenty of Potter fans ride in the theme park version (mentioned in post 10), and those are obviously modern reproductions, though I think they do have a compartment layout.
 

yorksrob

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Does that actually matter to most Jacobite passengers though? I think that most of them will be there for some combination of a scenic day out, and the Harry Potter train connection. Most of them have probably never been on a real Mk1 to compare the experience with.

Plenty of Potter fans ride in the theme park version (mentioned in post 10), and those are obviously modern reproductions, though I think they do have a compartment layout.

I've not seen much of the Harry Potter films, however I note that they seem to use a mk1 for some of their scenes.
 

peteb

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I've not seen much of the Harry Potter films, however I note that they seem to use a mk1 for some of their scenes.
The Harry Potter films feature (mainly) compartment stock but. (no spoilers) there are a few scenes using open carriages. All are MK1. I think young people are very much aware of things such as the type of carriage. The VT BFK got a lot of attention at Birmingham New Street the other evening with many asking "is this the Harry Potter train?".
 

stu

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Does that actually matter to most Jacobite passengers though? I think that most of them will be there for some combination of a scenic day out, and the Harry Potter train connection. Most of them have probably never been on a real Mk1 to compare the experience with.
Have a butchers at West Coast's TripAdvisor, Google Reviews, Trustpilot etc, almost all of the complaints feature the use of "modern" mk2 carriages and not the mk1s (not that there is a massive time gap between the two mks being constructed!). And if they don't mention that, it's diesel substitution.
 

Wyrleybart

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Have a butchers at West Coast's TripAdvisor, Google Reviews, Trustpilot etc, almost all of the complaints feature the use of "modern" mk2 carriages and not the mk1s (not that there is a massive time gap between the two mks being constructed!). And if they don't mention that, it's diesel substitution.
To be honest, I really don't the proprietors of WCR give a stuff about this. The ORR rescindment of the WCR's exemption for use of non CDL was withdrawn in November 2023, so WCR have been forced to use CDL fitted Mk2s for seated passengers ever since, although trains have still operated with buffet / shop / brake vehicles.

The whole of the Jacobite 2024 season used air con Mk2s, the period for which the Tripadvisor posts have been more relevant. Also the annual GB series in both 2024 and 2025, where the RTC customers pay the top rates for a week of steam haulage, have been formed of the Mk2 "coffins". I suspect neither RTC nor it's customers were particularly happy, but nothing appears to have changed since November 2023, except that WCR have taken control of the ex Riviera fleet, and painted some vehicles maroon and some vehicles blue and grey.
 

theblackwatch

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The whole of the Jacobite 2024 season used air con Mk2s, the period for which the Tripadvisor posts have been more relevant. Also the annual GB series in both 2024 and 2025, where the RTC customers pay the top rates for a week of steam haulage, have been formed of the Mk2 "coffins". I suspect neither RTC nor it's customers were particularly happy, but nothing appears to have changed since November 2023, except that WCR have taken control of the ex Riviera fleet, and painted some vehicles maroon and some vehicles blue and grey.
It is noticeable that a lot of RTC tours are now made up of around 9 coaches, whereas prior to 2024, they were often load 11 or 12. So, while some won't mind the 'aircons', I suspect they have lost a number of customers as a result of WCRC's policy.
 

BlueLeanie

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Does that actually matter to most Jacobite passengers though? I think that most of them will be there for some combination of a scenic day out, and the Harry Potter train connection. Most of them have probably never been on a real Mk1 to compare the experience with.

Plenty of Potter fans ride in the theme park version (mentioned in post 10), and those are obviously modern reproductions, though I think they do have a compartment layout.
They do indeed have a compartment layout (4+4). The windows, along with the internal windows to the corridor are actually screens that allow animations to be displayed. The "accessories" may well be genuine BR surplus or reproductions.

This Youtube link shows the trains (CableCars) in action. In reality, I'm sure someone could build a "Steam Engine" DVT with all of the steam special effects with a Stadler Flirt PP as a fake tender and no tourist would really care, (and most rail enthusiasts would be smug knowing the "secret").

 

Krokodil

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Because of that the Railway Touring Company are forced to travel in "sealed" air-conditioned Mk2 Intercity stock. The last two Great Britain annual tours have been formed thus
Weren't they always that way? Wasn't there a rake of Mk2s in a special livery for the train?
 

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