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Is a Metrolink (Manchester) east-west tram-train tunnel needed?

Howardh

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The Metro from Victoria through Exchange Square doesn't seem to do anything, other than mean less traffic on the other lines; as in there's Exchange stop, which Shudehill could cover, and then nothing until St Peter's Sq, which is served by the other trams; I find that odd! Why not a stop on Cross St?
 
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NCT

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Indeed, unless you converted the entire Inner Ring Road to a inner GM Metrolink loop.

Even in a maximal 'urbanise the Inner Ring Road' scenario (which I'd be very much in favour of), you still only have new residential on one side (the Great Jackson glass towers)
and old residential on the other (Hulme). It could become a reasonably vibrant modern inner city corridor but it'll be some way short of city centre. The main central business districts of Spinningfiels, SPS, Piccadilly Gardens are too far from the Mancunian Way. Yes there's the university and First Street employment cluster but that doesn't feel like enough.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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The Metro from Victoria through Exchange Square doesn't seem to do anything, other than mean less traffic on the other lines; as in there's Exchange stop, which Shudehill could cover, and then nothing until St Peter's Sq, which is served by the other trams; I find that odd! Why not a stop on Cross St?

A Cross Street stop was dismissed early on because of the difficulty of locating high-floor platforms. 2CC should have run down Deansgate - perhaps a 3CC will?
 

AlastairFraser

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Even in a maximal 'urbanise the Inner Ring Road' scenario (which I'd be very much in favour of), you still only have new residential on one side (the Great Jackson glass towers)
and old residential on the other (Hulme). It could become a reasonably vibrant modern inner city corridor but it'll be some way short of city centre. The main central business districts of Spinningfiels, SPS, Piccadilly Gardens are too far from the Mancunian Way. Yes there's the university and First Street employment cluster but that doesn't feel like enough.
True. It might be a useful loop in the long term, when Metrolink (hopefully) has a decent selection of radial lines from Manchester to outlying towns and an orbital line in outer GM, but not yet.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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A Cross Street stop was dismissed early on because of the difficulty of locating high-floor platforms. 2CC should have run down Deansgate - perhaps a 3CC will?
Could continue to Pendleton shopping centre via Salford Central, Cathedral and Crescent. And from there possibly join onto the Atherton line or take over the V1/V2 busway, but I’m getting really far fetched now.
 

William3000

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I can't speak for the tram priority, but at the time the system was being designed around 1990 low-floor trams were in their infancy and high floors and platforms were the only viable solution for level boarding.
I imagine also given that the first line ran from Bury to Altrincham with a spur to Piccadilly, the fact it used converted heavy rail stations that it was much cheaper to have high floors otherwise every former station would have had to be demolished and replaced with lower platforms.

While initially it probably was a cheaper solution than tunnelling, I actually think overall it’s more effective. The trams are visible in the centre and can be boarded quickly. Compare this to an underground system where it takes 2 or 3 minutes to get down to platform level.
 

Senex

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I imagine also given that the first line ran from Bury to Altrincham with a spur to Piccadilly, the fact it used converted heavy rail stations that it was much cheaper to have high floors otherwise every former station would have had to be demolished and replaced with lower platforms.
I think that was it. The stations with high-level platforms were already there, there weren't at the start going to be that many new stations on the road sections, and it was thus cheaper, quicker, and easier to build the system for high-level access. The fact that the second section was the Altrincham line simply strengthened this position. With hindsight, I think a great opportunity was lost.

While initially it probably was a cheaper solution than tunnelling, I actually think overall it’s more effective. The trams are visible in the centre and can be boarded quickly. Compare this to an underground system where it takes 2 or 3 minutes to get down to platform level.
I don't think it's necessarily more effective, but it certainly can be — but only if the trams have a good route on the surface and have full running priority over the road sections. They are visible and they have quick and easy access, and they certainly feel much safer than a genuine underground can, especially at quiet times. And compare the lack of hassle using a major tram interchange in any number of continental cities with the time spent in seemingly endless subterranean walking at somewhere like King's Cross.

A useful compromise that seems to work well in a number of foreign cities is putting just the absolutely central bits of tram systems immediately below surface level in cut-and-cover tunnels — very little addition to access times but the advantages of brisk running through central areas.

There's some very interesting comment touching on light rail in a discussion between Richatd Bowker and David Leeder at 10' 44" (and following) the start of this week's "Green Signals" at
. The comments on how France does trams and particularly the Paris example quoted are especially interesting.
 

Winthorpe

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While initially it probably was a cheaper solution than tunnelling, I actually think overall it’s more effective.

There wasn't a range of options. The Picc-Vic tunnel was cancelled. The light rail option eventually emerged to fill the void.

The problem is the Metrolink is much lower capacity. And the capacity keeps being reached, especially at peak.

Or to put it another way. The problem the tunnel was designed to solve hasn't gone away. Metrolink has just only partially solved it. That's what I meant by it has kicked the can down the road.
 
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Howardh

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There wasn't a range of options. The Picc-Vic tunnel was cancelled. The light rail option eventually emerged to fill the void.

The problem is the Metrolink is much lower capacity. And the capacity keeps being reached, especially at peak.

Or to put it another way. The problem the tunnel was designed to solve hasn't gone away. Metrolink has just only partially solved it. That's what I meant by it has kicked the can down the road.

...and a lot of the trams passing through Victoria don't go to Piccadilly anyway! And those that do are ponderous having to wind through the streets and stop at "halts" three times. The "free bus" doesn't help either, the No1 goes nowhere near Piccadilly, and the No2 calls at Victoria but that winds its way around too - it's worse returning from Piccadilly - and I've never found a timetable for it other than "every ten minutes" which, due to traffic, isn't always going to be 10 mins, so one never knows which is coming first, the tram or the bus! One plus for the bus is it's free whereas some pax may have to pay for the tram.
 

Senex

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There wasn't a range of options. The Picc-Vic tunnel was cancelled. The light rail option eventually emerged to fill the void.

The problem is the Metrolink is much lower capacity. And the capacity keeps being reached, especially at peak.

Or to put it another way. The problem the tunnel was designed to solve hasn't gone away. Metrolink has just only partially solved it. That's what I meant by it has kicked the can down the road.
PiccVic was very much a local trains solution that would have done nothing for through-Manchester routes for N/S or E/W traffic. The connection at the Victoria end was into the Bury electric line; Bolton was to be reached not over the main line but by way of Radcliffe. What seems hardly ever to be mentioned but what would have been a major benefit now is that the plans did include flyovers at both Edgeley Junction and Slade Lane Junction.

I think it's quite right to say that the problem that tunnel was designed to solve hasn't gone away and that Metrolink is only a partial solution (and doesn't itself know whether it is a fast way into and out of the city or, like the airport line, just a meandering local service). But whatever, Metrolink does nothing for, and PiccVic would have done nothing for, improving the appalling east-west main line link across Manchester or providing a fast and high-capacity link between the Crewe main line (and/or a new main line in from the south) and the Bolton main line.
 

Howardh

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PiccVic was very much a local trains solution that would have done nothing for through-Manchester routes for N/S or E/W traffic. The connection at the Victoria end was into the Bury electric line; Bolton was to be reached not over the main line but by way of Radcliffe. What seems hardly ever to be mentioned but what would have been a major benefit now is that the plans did include flyovers at both Edgeley Junction and Slade Lane Junction.

I think it's quite right to say that the problem that tunnel was designed to solve hasn't gone away and that Metrolink is only a partial solution (and doesn't itself know whether it is a fast way into and out of the city or, like the airport line, just a meandering local service). But whatever, Metrolink does nothing for, and PiccVic would have done nothing for, improving the appalling east-west main line link across Manchester or providing a fast and high-capacity link between the Crewe main line (and/or a new main line in from the south) and the Bolton main line.
You mention Bolton, I find the East-West link isn't too bad other than always having to change at Victoria or Stalybridge towards Huddersfield/Leeds, it's squeezing through the Castlefield Corridor that's a real problem, example, if you have a flight or train to catch at Piccadilly, I would advise, if possible, catching an earlier one from Preston/Chorley/Bolton to counter any delays there. Much more confident of catching a connection at Victoria!
 

Grimsby town

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The problem is the Metrolink is much lower capacity. And the capacity keeps being reached, especially at peak.
This is the big problem with Metrolink. In the short term this can be mitigated with more double trams but long term there is going to be capacity issues on the trams and at city centre stops. There's very little that can be done to the existing system given space constraints, particularly when any adaptions to existing stops is going to require track modifications which will be extremely disruptive. A new line is going to be needed in the city centre and another surface line is likely to be politically difficult and cause significant disruption to other modes of transport.
 

edwin_m

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The stations with high-level platforms were already there, there weren't at the start going to be that many new stations on the road sections, and it was thus cheaper, quicker, and easier to build the system for high-level access. The fact that the second section was the Altrincham line simply strengthened this position. With hindsight, I think a great opportunity was lost.
However, the Oldham line stations were totally replaced with new (high) platforms when converted to Metrolink, so perhaps the extra cost of doing so wasn't too great - especially when considering the ongoing maintenance costs of a range of heritage structures instead of a uniform set of simple modern ones.
But whatever, Metrolink does nothing for, and PiccVic would have done nothing for, improving the appalling east-west main line link across Manchester or providing a fast and high-capacity link between the Crewe main line (and/or a new main line in from the south) and the Bolton main line.
By replacing the Altrincham heavy rail service, Metrolink did free up capacity in the Castlefield Corridor for through trains between the Airport or Stockport lines and the Bolton or Liverpool.
 

supervc-10

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A 'full length' tram would go some ways to improving capacity, but from what I understand would be tricky with the M5000 design and would probably require something altogether new. Kind of how the DRL is replacing triple units with 2x 3 section trains, reducing the number of cabs taking up space (and money! Cabs are expensive).

A 'stadtbahn' style tunnel might be helpful, but is it the best use of perpetually limited funds? Would pedestrianising more of the city-centre on-street areas be a more cost-effective way to get a lot of the reliability and speed improvements? Having said that - the street running is mostly on Princess Street/Cross Street on the 2nd City Crossing line via Exchange Square - pretty much the rest of the city centre lines are just effectively 'level crossings'. A way of ticketing people who block the trams coming out of Piccadilly might be an idea.
 

Mcr Warrior

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A way of ticketing people who block the trams coming out of Piccadilly might be an idea.
Are you saying that the stretch of London Road (A6) immediately outside of the Piccadilly Metrolink station isn't camera monitored /enforced? It is essentially a long yellow box junction, isnt it?
 

edwin_m

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A 'full length' tram would go some ways to improving capacity, but from what I understand would be tricky with the M5000 design and would probably require something altogether new.
A stretched M5000 would have more articulations, but the current design only has motors on the non-articulated bogie. So it would need a new design of motored articulation bogie. I suspect at that point, and considering the age of the M5000 design, it would be better to go out to tender for something new and accept the likelihood of a different design with little or no commonality. Operationally they will have a split fleet whatever they do.
 

NCT

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In the short term just take out the middle driving cabs - they do it in Cologne with their new HF6 (albeit delivered with cab on one end only not retroffited).

In the medium term, the next generation order could be based on the HF6 specification (open tender, but we already know Alstom, Siemens and CAF all do similar products given confirmed orders for Dusseldorf and Bonn), but have a gangway between the two 'units' - like they do in Frankfurt - no Jacob bogies. Or Stadler could do a tram version of the Class 555.
 

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