Can DfT/ORR delay/revoke the authorisation for Lumo’s service?
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Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates
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Wyrleybart
Established Member
Not only that I seem to recall that the fleet of 27 222s was going to match the replacement of the 25 (was originally 26) HSTs. Thirty vehicles have now been contracted to the First Group (Lumo) as 5 x 6 car units, so the fleet for fleet replacement won't now pan out. In one sense it is a bit of a surprise that FG didn't get offered some ex AWC 221s with their TASS equipment, but they wouldn't have got the sixth cars - unless a deal done with the XC 221s which don't use the tilt capability.
Scotrail only need the ones left to cover diagrams that the hsts use and have spares I believe it's 19 sets in traffic then 3 spare
DfT have nothing to do with it. Technically ORR could, but they would need a very, very good reason otherwise it would a trip to the High Court.
A unit can be given/loaned/hired to EMR that is not up to the correct specifications for driver and crew training (as they did the other months for the train the trainer runs) .If this actually happens, is this genuine progress or a panicked reaction to the fact that 222s are going to start exiting the fleet and exposure to this is a real threat?
The numerous delays have been discussed to death here and elsewhere, no (apparent) 10-car testing has commenced and we’ve now heard that there are major wiring issues. So, to hear that a unit is being handed over in September seems a bit premature given the introduction issues are not insignificant.
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2028?!
Causing an existing non open access service to become unviable might perhaps be considered to be a good reason. Delaying Lumo’s operation by a year or so would be the sensible course of action.
QSK19
Member
I stand to be corrected by people with expertise here, however I think the High Court would look at ways that the ORR could mitigate refusing to release the 222s to Lumo.
As much as deploying 170s on mainline services would significantly compromise EMR’s operations (particularly the Regional side), it is nevertheless mitigation - just as hiring in the 180s would be.
As @Bald Rick has stated, the ORR would need a damn good, watertight case proving that every other option were genuinely 100% impossible.
Win the battle, lose the war. Lumo’s parent is looking to expand their open access operation. Upset the Secretary of State and see what happens. Best to play nicely and wait a year.
meld3
Member
Yeah, Lumo need to treat the SoS with the same kid gloves you treat Trump with !!
But it doesnt become ‘unviable’..
Lumo have a contract for paths, and a contract to lease trains. ORR can’t do anythign sbout the train lease. It could do something about the Track Access Agreement, but as I said, it would have to demonstrate that Lumo were not able to operate the service in a safe and efficient manner. It is extremely unlikely.
What is more likely, (in the same way it’s more likely that I will get 4 numbers on the lottery tomorrow than 5) is that DfT instruct EMR to open negotiations with Lumo and the lessor to see how much they want to allow them (EMR) to keep the trains a bilt longer. The words ‘over’ and ‘barrel’ would be adjacent.
snookertam
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ScotRail are under pressure to get rid of HSTs before 2030.
Politics will come into this. EMR run a pretty good intercity service, and one that runs into many marginal seats. If that service gets disrupted because of an open access operator then the Secretary of State will take a dim view. She’s already fired warning shots about open access operations in an earlier letter to ORR. (Not connected with the EMR issue). Future open access expansion is entirely in the gift of the DfT, so Lumo’s parent company needs to tread carefully. Having contractual rights and choosing to exercise them are different matters.
The_Train
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Well at the moment, the best they are going to get is to shave 3 years off that, more likely 2 when you factor in moving the stock, training maintenance teams, training crew, appeasing the unions etc. Then they are going to get more "English cast offs" and diesel cast offs at that which won't go down well politically at a time when the SNP are under a mountain of pressure anyway!
cj_1985
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So the government can then be accused (quite rightly) of meddling in a private business's affairs?... and what what exactly would 'they' (Lumo/FG) get out of it, beyond damaged brand reputation?
I mean in this case, Lumo (ScL/WC) have access rights until a specific date... it's NOT for a set period from when they start operating, to suit EMR/DfT.
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Lumo’s parent is looking to introduce more open access routes. The government is luke warm to the concept at the best of times. Now is not the time to antagonise.
cj_1985
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Even if they don't antagonise, it doesn't guarantee that it'll improve their fortunes with future applications... so could just be wasted time and money just to benefit DfT/EMR
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Stopgap options to cover for delays to introduction of Class 810 for EMR?
Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-810-for-east-midlands-railway-construction-introduction-updates.195052/page-115#post-7169043 Recent rumour control (and I emphasise RUMOUR, albeit from “inside”)… First 222s to leave in December for full refurb prior to...
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Clarence Yard
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I can assure you that they are now not remotely bothered what the DfT might think. Lumo will get its first unit on time and the DfT can do nothing about it.
What’s the latest estimate (no guesses!) for the first 810 being introduced? It can’t be more than a few months, surely?
EMR still think September but realistically I can see it being well into next year, unless we end up in a similar situation as SWR where only one or two units see service for a long while
Nicholas Lewis
On Moderation
Also given Eversholt Rail have awarded a £10m contract to Alstom to refurbish the class 222's as part of a £50m train services agreement there are potentially penalties included in that agreement if the 810's aren't in traffic to release them.
https://www.alstom.com/press-releas...-enhance-and-service-class-222-trains-lumo-uk
99009
Member
So, to avoid reading through all 128 pages, can I just check this brief summary is an accurate picture of the current situation please?
1. 5 222's will be leaving EMR in September 2025 to go for refurbishment and enter service with Lumo in 2026.
2. No replacement rolling stock will be provided to EMR and since the 810's aren't anywhere close to being accepted, a reduced timetable, or 170's going to/from St Pancras, is a realistic possibility.
3. 6 221's (221101-221106) sit stored at Derby or Burton with no known future and due to costs+the time it would take to train staff, these units won't be drafted in to EMR temporarily cover the 5 departing 222's.
4. The 810's have problems with welding, wiring looms catching fire and working in 10 car operation. There has been no public update or transparent communication from either Hitachi or EMR to passengers and staff about the delay, or the problems, or what the solution will be.
5. Thankfully these problems were found testing the units, which is a good example of why testing takes place first before entry into service, but it's currently unknown if Hitachi have a solution for these problems.
6. If Hitachi do have a fix for the problems, EMR are expecting to accept their first unit for driver+staff training in September 2025.
1. 5 222's will be leaving EMR in September 2025 to go for refurbishment and enter service with Lumo in 2026.
2. No replacement rolling stock will be provided to EMR and since the 810's aren't anywhere close to being accepted, a reduced timetable, or 170's going to/from St Pancras, is a realistic possibility.
3. 6 221's (221101-221106) sit stored at Derby or Burton with no known future and due to costs+the time it would take to train staff, these units won't be drafted in to EMR temporarily cover the 5 departing 222's.
4. The 810's have problems with welding, wiring looms catching fire and working in 10 car operation. There has been no public update or transparent communication from either Hitachi or EMR to passengers and staff about the delay, or the problems, or what the solution will be.
5. Thankfully these problems were found testing the units, which is a good example of why testing takes place first before entry into service, but it's currently unknown if Hitachi have a solution for these problems.
6. If Hitachi do have a fix for the problems, EMR are expecting to accept their first unit for driver+staff training in September 2025.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Yes
Potentially (either replacement/reduced/170s).
Unknown.
Yes, not sure if it is specifically related to 10 car operation.
Yes
99009
Member
Cheers @pokemonsuper9 and nice username. 
I accept that issues can be found during testing and that these can take time to resolve. But given that originally the 810's were expected to enter service on the MML in 2023, it's the lack of transparent communication to EMR passengers (and staff) since then that I find annoying.
I accept that issues can be found during testing and that these can take time to resolve. But given that originally the 810's were expected to enter service on the MML in 2023, it's the lack of transparent communication to EMR passengers (and staff) since then that I find annoying.
Clarence Yard
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I believe the release to Lumo has always been a phased release, not all at once in September - unless something has changed very recently.
jfowkes
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If there was ever an argument for an actual unified, comprehensive rolling stock procurement strategy and an end to ROSCOs, it's this sorry state of affairs.
43096
On Moderation
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In what way is the ROSCO setup to blame for Hitachi’s inability to deliver trains anywhere near to the contracted delivery schedule? Because that is the root cause.
Nicholas Lewis
On Moderation
Thats makes sense given they are going for a refurb first and i guess Widnes will only be resourced to deal with 1-2 units at a time. So are they taking one 7 car and one 5 to make 2 x six cars or is that detail not yet decided?
Indeed. Though one would expect EMR's contract comes with some damages for late delivery of the product. Not that this would necessarily cover the difference.
eastwestdivide
Established Member
Could this be an 810 move tomorrow 16/6?
A 5Q70 1221 Old Dalby to Merchant Park Sidings
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A 5Q70 1221 Old Dalby to Merchant Park Sidings
Realtime Trains | 5Q70 1221 Old Dalby to Merchant Park Sidings | 16/06/2025
Real-time train running information for 5Q70 1221 departure from Old Dalby to Merchant Park Sidings on 16/06/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk