Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[800001]

Feels like an absolute age ago!

Coming up to 3 years and yet this project seems to be turning into the 701 saga, but for different reason

 

[Wyrleybart]

Coming up to 3 years and yet this project seems to be turning into the 701 saga, but for different reason

But not greatly surprising. Hitachi were handed orders for practically all former Intercity traincos for new stock. GW, LNE, AWC, TPE, FHT, Lumo and EMR. Was this vast orderbook achievable in such a short period of time - just like the Alstom nee Bombardier "Aventra" family, where one class of trains collapses the house of cards.

 

[QSK19]

But not greatly surprising. Hitachi were handed orders for practically all former Intercity traincos for new stock. GW, LNE, AWC, TPE, FHT, Lumo and EMR. Was this vast orderbook achievable in such a short period of time - just like the Alstom nee Bombardier "Aventra" family, where one class of trains collapses the house of cards.

I think this was always a real worry when it came to putting all the eggs into one nest. Add to that, in the 810s’ case, a very complex modification from the standard 80x.

Also IMO, Hitachi have been complacent, assuming they would always be the IC manufacturer of choice and TOCs wouldn’t go elsewhere. The 810s are victims of this; except with these, the saga has gone on for so long now that the attitude seems to have changed into not giving a damn.

Nevertheless, looking forward to seeing Rock Rail East Midlands’ accounts to see if Hitachi have coughed up another tranche of “liquidated damages”!

 

[Aspen90]

I’m personally estimating next spring for these things in service. What are we now, virtually June and so far all that’s been completed is ‘train the trainer’ - I mean, can that lapse? Will that need to be redone? There’s no agreement for driver training, no agreement for TM training, no idea when validation checks are due to continue and be completed. Also, no testing of 10 cars has even been started yet.
Then let’s be honest, the teething problems are going to require full dentures the way we’re going so I don’t see them being ready for service any time soon. Annoying I know, but I think EMR were very naive when they announced a 120 day countdown to service a few weeks back - I mean what were they thinking?!

 

[InTheEastMids]

I think this was always a real worry when it came to putting all the eggs into one nest - the backlog was inevitable.

Also IMO, Hitachi have been complacent, assuming they would always be the IC manufacturer of choice and TOCs wouldn’t go elsewhere.

I think this is a little unfair. Hitachi could only beat the competitors in front of them. Whilst I may be misremembering, I do no think those options were great - Bombardier (as was) and Stadler.

The bimode Aventra didn't exist and never has, there was a sizeable backlog and the track record of EMU introductions is the stuff of legend here. Stadler would have faced a similar challenge as Hitachi, as they'd also have needed about 1000 HP more on diesel vs a 755/4, which could impact the size, weight and/or reliability of the power pack.

i.e. it'd be brave to confidently assert that other options available to EMR at the time would have had a smoother entry into service than 810s.

Various sources on 810s discuss extensive changes required for the shorter carriages with more engines, the simpler idea is that despite making best efforts, Hitachi under-estimated the complexity of the changes vs 80x. Given my experience of complex programmes, I suspect a cascade effect of change that couldn't have really have been foreseen given the design maturity when the bid was submitted.

As somebody that works in a company that tenders for work, an intrinsic issue of this model is that a bidder's desire to win can mean delivery risks get waved away as a Tomorrow Problem.

Some of these things may look like complacency, but aren't.

 

[800001]

I think this is a little unfair. Hitachi could only beat the competitors in front of them. Whilst I may be misremembering, I do no think those options were great - Bombardier (as was) and Stadler.

The bimode Aventra didn't exist and never has, there was a sizeable backlog and the track record of EMU introductions is the stuff of legend here. Stadler would have faced a similar challenge as Hitachi, as they'd also have needed about 1000 HP more on diesel vs a 755/4, which could impact the size, weight and/or reliability of the power pack.

i.e. it'd be brave to confidently assert that other options available to EMR at the time would have had a smoother entry into service than 810s.

Various sources on 810s discuss extensive changes required for the shorter carriages with more engines, the simpler idea is that despite making best efforts, Hitachi under-estimated the complexity of the changes vs 80x. Given my experience of complex programmes, I suspect a cascade effect of change that couldn't have really have been foreseen given the design maturity when the bid was submitted.

As somebody that works in a company that tenders for work, an intrinsic issue of this model is that a bidder's desire to win can mean delivery risks get waved away as a Tomorrow Problem.

Some of these things may look like complacency, but aren't.

Unable to name sources, but a lot of the issues is not the redesign of components to fit in a smaller space, it’s the quality of work undertaken by the factory at Aycliffe.

There is one other major difference with the 810, these are the first units to be fully assembled/welded at Aycliffe, has this caused a issue with staff completing a very important but new task?

 

[QSK19]

I’m personally estimating next spring for these things in service. What are we now, virtually June and so far all that’s been completed is ‘train the trainer’ - I mean, can that lapse? Will that need to be redone? There’s no agreement for driver training, no agreement for TM training, no idea when validation checks are due to continue and be completed. Also, no testing of 10 cars has even been started yet.
Then let’s be honest, the teething problems are going to require full dentures the way we’re going so I don’t see them being ready for service any time soon. Annoying I know, but I think EMR were very naive when they announced a 120 day countdown to service a few weeks back - I mean what were they thinking?!

A very sad state of affairs. I won’t believe anything at all until we see them properly in the flesh and we hear tangible progress from the forum’s various trusted, inside sources!

I think this is a little unfair. Hitachi could only beat the competitors in front of them. Whilst I may be misremembering, I do no think those options were great - Bombardier (as was) and Stadler.

The bimode Aventra didn't exist and never has, there was a sizeable backlog and the track record of EMU introductions is the stuff of legend here. Stadler would have faced a similar challenge as Hitachi, as they'd also have needed about 1000 HP more on diesel vs a 755/4, which could impact the size, weight and/or reliability of the power pack.

i.e. it'd be brave to confidently assert that other options available to EMR at the time would have had a smoother entry into service than 810s.

Various sources on 810s discuss extensive changes required for the shorter carriages with more engines, the simpler idea is that despite making best efforts, Hitachi under-estimated the complexity of the changes vs 80x. Given my experience of complex programmes, I suspect a cascade effect of change that couldn't have really have been foreseen given the design maturity when the bid was submitted.

As somebody that works in a company that tenders for work, an intrinsic issue of this model is that a bidder's desire to win can mean delivery risks get waved away as a Tomorrow Problem.

Some of these things may look like complacency, but aren't.

Fully get your points and whilst admittedly I cannot point to experience in the rail industry, my area of work is Facilities Management and I deal with tenders from existing and potential suppliers as the end user awarding contracts.

Maybe I view the tendering process with plenty of skepticism, but this is because I’ve dealt with dozens upon dozens of contracts, many of which suppliers have not delivered to an acceptable standard. Some of those failures have been down to complacency; so naturally, I view any hiccups with some level of caution and “here-we-go-again!”

I do not tolerate any Tomorrow’s Problem attitude from suppliers - to win the work, they will have a plan in place to eliminate any unnecessary risk and any lapse in progress can only be down to genuinely unavoidable circumstances.

Obviously the 810 contract is different to Facilities Management, but the principle of delivering to the customer properly is the same.

Nevertheless, looking at it as positively as possible, we have seen at least some level of progress thus far; so all isn’t lost.

 

[DimTim]

What is the total order. How many units have been completed by Aycliffe, how many delivered, how many accepted by EMR?

 

[Bald Rick]

In all seriousness though, this delay is appalling. When was the first steel cut for the 810s? 2019/2020?

Pedantically, it hasn’t. At least not for the bodyshells. (They are aluminium).

 

[800001]

What is the total order. How many units have been completed by Aycliffe, how many delivered, how many accepted by EMR?

No one can say how many complete, none delivered to EMR, none accepted by EMR.
810001, 810003-810004 at Old Dalby for tests.
All other units (up to 013 and excluding 002) seen at Aycliffe.

 

[Trainbike46]

I think this is a little unfair. Hitachi could only beat the competitors in front of them. Whilst I may be misremembering, I do no think those options were great - Bombardier (as was) and Stadler.

From what I know of stadler I would be confident that their offering was likely high quality, but it likely was also expensive compared to alternatives

The bimode Aventra didn't exist and never has, there was a sizeable backlog and the track record of EMU introductions is the stuff of legend here. Stadler would have faced a similar challenge as Hitachi, as they'd also have needed about 1000 HP more on diesel vs a 755/4, which could impact the size, weight and/or reliability of the power pack.

I would suspect there would have been more than 1 power pack. Then again, the 4s are relatively overpowered, so would they really need that much extra power?

i.e. it'd be brave to confidently assert that other options available to EMR at the time would have had a smoother entry into service than 810s.

Various sources on 810s discuss extensive changes required for the shorter carriages with more engines, the simpler idea is that despite making best efforts, Hitachi under-estimated the complexity of the changes vs 80x. Given my experience of complex programmes, I suspect a cascade effect of change that couldn't have really have been foreseen given the design maturity when the bid was submitted.

I think the low risk option would have been to order standard 9-car 80x, with 26m coaches this would have given 234m long trains, a perfect fit for StP.
Of course this didn't fit the envisaged service plan so the 810s were selected. I just hope they enter service soon so the 222s can be used to replace the very outdated HSTs in Scotland sooner rather than later.

 

[class442]

Attached is a post from 8X group on Facebook showing first car of 810001 undergoing some tests outside factory in August 2022. This was first time a picture of the unit appeared on the group from what I can see.

No one can say how many complete, none delivered to EMR, none accepted by EMR.
810001, 810003-810004 at Old Dalby for tests.
All other units (up to 013 and excluding 002) seen at Aycliffe.

If construction started in 2022, and three years later only 13 have been built, then construction is either very slow or the production line has been paused - depends on when 810013 was first seen.
Are they waiting for some units to be accepted before they start construction of the following 20 trains?

 

[800001]

If construction started in 2022, and three years later only 13 have been built, then construction is either very slow or the production line has been paused - depends on when 810013 was first seen.
Are they waiting for some units to be accepted before they start construction of the following 20 trains?

More than 13 will have been built, but just not seen.
At the moment there is not a single EMR unit outside the factory, all are inside.

Another 2 second search on Facebook shows 810013 for the first time outside on 20th March.