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Euston overcrowding

Hadders

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Was at Euston on Saturday evening, unfortunately, during the weekly WCML meltdown, goes without saying it was pure chaos.
There was some disruption this afternoon but I wouldn't say it was severe. Just late departures from what I could see. Nothing showing as cancelled while I was there.

Interesting to know when these trains actually departed. Do barrier staff close off with significant numbers of passengers still coming towards them?
You could look that up but it really isn't the issue. People will rightly rely on the departure boards and if they see there's less than five minutes to go until the train is advertised as departing there is going to be a herd mentality and people are going to stampede down the ramps.
 
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Russel

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There was some disruption this afternoon but I wouldn't say it was severe. Just late departures from what I could see. Nothing showing as cancelled while I was there.

What I really found to be poor was the lack of information, it was clean on arrival at the station that things were going wrong, but it seemed that passengers were just left to fend for themselves.

Only staff I recall seeing were at the bottom of the ramps shouting at people for running...
 

RailWonderer

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Was at Euston on Saturday evening, unfortunately, during the weekly WCML meltdown, goes without saying it was pure chaos.
While the Euston scrum has been a thing for years now and won't ever change, it's also been talked about to death on these forums over the years. It's obvious Network Rail needs to copy what they do at other stations like Liverpool St and announce platforms 20 mins before. I think though Avanti don't always have the staff to man every platform and they don't want people getting onto the trains without a ticket inspection (especially as I have taken many Avanti services without my ticket ever being inspected on board either).

More broadly, the country just feels very densely populated these days, everything is a scrum on the weekend - the shops, high streets, roads, stations. Being in crowds and a scrum is just British life. The pressure to put some good organisation into this scrum is more urgent now but the railway is in this awkward period right now where GBR hasn't started yet and the railway getting the details all in order will be down to GBR.
 

londonmidland

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I've noticed they've also added back the '..Will passengers intending to travel on this service, please join the train now, as it is ready to leave' part to their automated announcements. Especially so when the train has only just been advertised, but has gone past its booked departure time, during late boardings.

If anything, that makes passengers rush even more, when hearing that.
 

Russel

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...and they don't want people getting onto the trains without a ticket inspection (especially as I have taken many Avanti services without my ticket ever being inspected on board either).

Same here, surly Avanti instructing their Train Managers to put more emphasis on conducting ticket checks would be a quick win here?

If anything, that makes passengers rush even more, when hearing that.

Resulting in staff shouting at you not to run... Like, what do you expect?
 

MikeWh

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It's obvious Network Rail needs to copy what they do at other stations like Liverpool St and announce platforms 20 mins before. I think though Avanti don't always have the staff to man every platform and they don't want people getting onto the trains without a ticket inspection (especially as I have taken many Avanti services without my ticket ever being inspected on board either).
This doesn't explain why they don't announce LNR services in platforms 8-11 until a few minutes to go, when the stock has been sitting in the platform for ten or more minutes.
 

Russel

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This doesn't explain why they don't announce LNR services in platforms 8-11 until a few minutes to go, when the stock has been sitting in the platform for ten or more minutes.

Using RTT, I can be sat on an LNWR service 5+ minutes prior to it being announced, it's always very obvious when the announcement is made though...

I think the only way to really solve the issues at Euston is a complete change of management and staff.
 

Thornaby 37

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I think the only way to really solve the issues at Euston is a complete change of management and staff.
I would be inclined to agree, except for the last two words
Let's not forget that staff are only following management instructions, so any blame should be directed purely at management
 

SCDR_WMR

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This doesn't explain why they don't announce LNR services in platforms 8-11 until a few minutes to go, when the stock has been sitting in the platform for ten or more minutes.
As I've mentioned before, this is a procedural issue. Platforms are advertised once dispatched staff are on the platform and inform station control to release the platform for passengers.

There isn't enough LNR staff to cover all platforms at all times so there is a delay between trains arriving and staff being there to make the platform available
 

stuu

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This doesn't explain why they don't announce LNR services in platforms 8-11 until a few minutes to go, when the stock has been sitting in the platform for ten or more minutes.
When I used to commute via Euston on the suburban services, they just used to leave them unlocked between services, with the boards showing immediately the next departure. No staff were on the trains or the platforms. Obviously that changed at some point since but I wonder what made that practice be considered inappropriate?
 

Bletchleyite

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When I used to commute via Euston on the suburban services, they just used to leave them unlocked between services, with the boards showing immediately the next departure. No staff were on the trains or the platforms. Obviously that changed at some point since but I wonder what made that practice be considered inappropriate?

It changed when NR took over operating the CIS when it was previously operated by Virgin Trains. No reason was given at the time.
 

Hadders

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Whatever the reason, annluncing trains with less than five minutes to go, and yesterday egternoon with passengers being led to believe there is less than a minute to go before the train leaves is a recipe for someone to be seriously injured.

The answer isn't to keep people on a busy concourse, passengers need to be allowed onto the platform the train will be departing from.

Given the railway's focus on safety when will someone do something about it?
 

styles

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Interesting to know when these trains actually departed. Do barrier staff close off with significant numbers of passengers still coming towards them?
They don't close off the platform strictly no. There would be fights, possibly riots, if they tried to announce a platform 1 minute before departure then blocked people getting to the train. In any case it would be very dangerous, whether from a staff safety, passengers ending up on the tracks, or if the barriers are closed some Hillsborough-style disaster.

But the average passenger isn't going to know this, and can't be expected to. Also realistically staff know that if a train is announced at e.g. 14:40 for a 14:41 departure, that that train is not going to depart at 14:41, so it should really should as departing at something like 14:46.

I can see the ORR taking a keener interest in the Euston situation if this continues.
 

styles

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Avanti absolutely do, though they tend to leave it until nobody has been through for a few seconds. And yes they are strict about it.
Never experienced this with Avanti myself.

The original question was:

Do barrier staff close off with significant numbers of passengers still coming towards them?
I don't believe Avanti or any other operator routinely do this.

Dribs and drabs, yes, significant numbers of passengers coming towards them, I would be very surprised.
 

Bletchleyite

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Other stations tend not to do it at all as they are more likely to have a gateline covering multiple platforms and thus have no way to do it. I think Euston is the only station now that has ticket checks on boarding that are almost all conducted manually (aside from 1-3 and 8-11) and on a per platform basis? Paddington can do it in some cases but it depends what else is boarding.

In the case of 8-11 the platforms are only ever closed where there is engineering work on them for safety reasons, they are not closed before departures.

You could theoretically sneak through if a WMT was boarding at an adjacent platform, though, as boarding checks are only ever done on WMT services aside from the 8-11 gateline where an RPI sting is in progress.
 

Peter0124

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WIth regards to ticket checks, couldn't they just be done on the train after leaving? Its a whole 1hr 45mins from Euston to Warrington so plenty of time to check on that service.

Maybe different for services calling at Watford or MK
 

D1537

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WIth regards to ticket checks, couldn't they just be done on the train after leaving? Its a whole 1hr 45mins from Euston to Warrington so plenty of time to check on that service.
In my experience Avanti ticket checks are much less common than other TOCs. On the other hand a lot more of their major stations are gatelined than perhaps other TOCs are. I don't think I've ever been asked for my railcard on an Avanti service, although that's not something that's unique to them (hello LNER!)
 

BayPaul

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I still feel the regulator needs to step in here and ban trains departing from Euston with less than 5 minutes notice of platform to passengers. If they are slow announcing the train then it will need to depart late, or be cancelled. It is clearly a major safety, accessibility and customer service issue, and so needs to be fixed.

Yes, it would muck up the WCML for a few weeks while heads got banged together and a proper system is introduced, but this is no different to if there were issues staffing the train, and in a customer service industry, surely having the passengers on the train is at least as important as having the staff on board!

No one would dare suggest (and rightly so) that drivers ir guards should rush their safety checks to achieve an on-time departure, so why should passengers have to have a mad scramble?
 

saismee

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In my experience Avanti ticket checks are much less common than other TOCs. On the other hand a lot more of their major stations are gatelined than perhaps other TOCs are. I don't think I've ever been asked for my railcard on an Avanti service, although that's not something that's unique to them (hello LNER!)
I've had my ticket and railcard checked on every Avanti service I've been on. This is a bit misleading though as I've only used Avanti once!

Which days of the week and which times does Euston get the busiest? I'm planning a trip using LNWR and I really don't want to be stuck in a mess of people.
 

Benjwri

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Used Euston on Saturday morning, everything was late arriving because of some issue earlier, and so some very short turnarounds. An LNR arrived on the platform next to my service and they announced before it even pulled in. They then announced my service about 10 seconds later on the next door platform. This meant you had 2 trainloads of passengers going onto the platform, and a trainload trying to get out.

To make matters worse you had Avanti RPIs making no attempt to tell people which lanes they could use up top, but shouting at people for using the wrong ones once in them, including LNR passengers using the lane for their platform, that all the boards had told them is leaving in 1 minute.

They then proceeded to let 2 Avanti’s, including mine, out in front of it anyways, and it departed 10 minutes after the boards had said.
 

Richardr

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16:06 Avanti to Liverpool Lime Street
at 16:03 was shown as Expected 16:10 but no platform shown
at 16:05 was shown as Expected 16:10 from platform 1
at 16:08 was removed from the board
Passengers would think they only had five minutes to get to the train from the time the platform was first announced
Sorry, just to understand your email, and choosing the above as one example.

When you say "passengers would think" would they be right to think that, or is the implication that there was a longer period?
 

DynamicSpirit

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Other stations tend not to do it at all as they are more likely to have a gateline covering multiple platforms and thus have no way to do it. I think Euston is the only station now that has ticket checks on boarding that are almost all conducted manually (aside from 1-3 and 8-11) and on a per platform basis? Paddington can do it in some cases but it depends what else is boarding.

In the case of 8-11 the platforms are only ever closed where there is engineering work on them for safety reasons, they are not closed before departures.

You could theoretically sneak through if a WMT was boarding at an adjacent platform, though, as boarding checks are only ever done on WMT services aside from the 8-11 gateline where an RPI sting is in progress.

I thought all platforms at Euston, apart from platform 1, were island platforms (And if I recall correctly, platform 1 shares a gateline with platforms 2-3 anway)? Thatwould imply that in principle, it's always possible that a gateline might give access to more than one train. But perhaps Avanti deliberately arranges things so that there are rarely two trains departing at similar times from opposite sides of the same island (which would make sense from the POV of crowd control anyway)?
 

Hadders

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Sorry, just to understand your email, and choosing the above as one example.

When you say "passengers would think" would they be right to think that, or is the implication that there was a longer period?
The train was first shown as departing from Platform 1 at 16:05. It said Expected 16:10.

So Aunt Mable, standing on the concourse looking at the departure screen, would reasonably assume she had 5 minutes to get from the concourse to the train at platform 1.

Real Time Trains says the train actually departed at 16:13.
 

Bletchleyite

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I thought all platforms at Euston, apart from platform 1, were island platforms (And if I recall correctly, platform 1 shares a gateline with platforms 2-3 anway)?

Yes. Note I did say "aside from 1-3" because that has a proper gateline. 12-15 was supposed to get one but it fell by the wayside during COVID.

Thatwould imply that in principle, it's always possible that a gateline might give access to more than one train. But perhaps Avanti deliberately arranges things so that there are rarely two trains departing at similar times from opposite sides of the same island (which would make sense from the POV of crowd control anyway)?

It is indeed fairly rare, and you can see frustration on their faces when a WMT gets called on the opposite side as it provides an opportunity to sneak past.
 

Dr Hoo

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The train was first shown as departing from Platform 1 at 16:05. It said Expected 16:10.

So Aunt Mable, standing on the concourse looking at the departure screen, would reasonably assume she had 5 minutes to get from the concourse to the train at platform 1.

Real Time Trains says the train actually departed at 16:13.
The aim is to try and ensure that an already delayed train is loaded as promptly as possible once it is known that staff are on board, etc.

Especially during disruption a train may not get a proceed signal as soon as it is ‘Ready to start’ because of other conflicting moves. Let alone any issues with ‘stragglers’.
 

Mcr Warrior

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16:06 Avanti to Liverpool Lime Street
at 16:03 was shown as Expected 16:10 but no platform shown
at 16:05 was shown as Expected 16:10 from platform 1
at 16:08 was removed from the board
Passengers would think they only had five minutes to get to the train from the time the platform was first announced
Concur that it departed at 1613, so seven minutes after its booked 1606 departure time. Got progressively later as it made its way North, arriving into Liverpool Lime Street with a forty-one minute delay. Just one of many such delayed journeys, it seems.
 

Russel

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I would be inclined to agree, except for the last two words
Let's not forget that staff are only following management instructions, so any blame should be directed purely at management

These being staff who are presumably only following instructions given to them by management?

May just be following instructions, but the staff at Euston are some of the most hostile and unhelpful on the network, from experience. It will take more than a change of management only to solve anything, properly... The rot set in a long time ago and runs very deep, changing the staffs attitude after many years is no simple job.
 

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