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Proposed new Liverpool & Manchester Railway

HSTEd

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I think my primary complaint with the scheme in the documents is that it can't manage to obtain a route from Sheffield/Stockport onto the new line - which rather undermines the point of the exercise in my view.

I also worry that reliance on the alignment of the Fiddlers Ferry route will cripple the new line, reducing its advantage over the current ones.
 
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WAO

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Three? Are you counting Headbolt Lane in this? That isn't direct at all.
Not the view of the LYR (who did then have the Wigan cut-off).

There is a £17Bn+ price tag to the new proposal which will leave most of the present routes unimproved, so there's scope for some alternative, lesser, even big ticket schemes. Not every Lancastrian is aiming for RAF Ringway (aka MIA!).

One HS section that should be built right now is the Church Fenton - Crossgates element which would have immediate application to TP etc.

I am however open to being convinced.

WAO
 

MarkyT

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35 miles to Victoria via Headbolt and Wigan, compared to 30 miles as the crow flies.
But 40 miles to HS2 Piccadilly via Fiddlers Ferry and Manchester Airport.
At higher speeds, with no local stopping trains in front to catch up.
 

Brubulus

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I think my primary complaint with the scheme in the documents is that it can't manage to obtain a route from Sheffield/Stockport onto the new line - which rather undermines the point of the exercise in my view.

I also worry that reliance on the alignment of the Fiddlers Ferry route will cripple the new line, reducing its advantage over the current ones.
You can reach Sheffield via Ardwick, which relieves Stockport. Manchester Interchange will play Stockport's role as a regional parkway, if you put a portal there, you can have turnbacks and a link to both Sheffield and Leeds. There's enough space for 4 tracks all the way to Hyde Junction.

The Fiddlers Ferry speed restrictions can be ameliorated by having very high levels of cant, given how there will be no freight or low speed trains on the route.

This new line is effectively a short link between a modernised Fiddlers Ferry line and the planned HS2 route.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not the view of the LYR (who did then have the Wigan cut-off).

Things have changed. Even if the line was reconnected, it cannot be contemplated that Merseyrail would be trashed by running fast trains alongside theirs and destroying the timetable.

This is why the new line is needed - so similar high frequency local services can be operated on the CLC and Chat Moss and can be punctual and reliable. The situation is basically HS2 but imagine the line being 2 track south of Rugby rather than 4!
 

The Ham

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Many car drivers set off from home to work with no nearby railway station at either end of the journey. Does that aspiration appeal to car drivers with all the extra travel to and from railway stations and if put in a referendum to the workers in car plants, how do you think the result of such a referendum might reveal? A colleague who occasionally frequents the Skyscraper City Manchester Transport website once deliberately caused much annoyance by referring to the "get them out of the cars" brigade aspiration by then suggesting their next step would be to get people out of privately owned dwellings and into local authority social housing.

Many do, but equally many do not.

When people say reduce car use by 30% (for example), they do not assume an equal reduction across all user groups. They mean reduce the average. There will always be some for whom there is no way to reduce car usage.

At the other end of the scale are the many who live in densely populated areas and travel to other densely populated areas. These groups can be served by nodes and therefore the rail option works (as do other distance appropriate measures, such as Metrolink in Manchester).

Then there are those who live in sparsely populated areas but travel to densely populated areas. For these people railheading works. This is why Stockport has such a big demand to London (and Wilmslow / Macclesfield likewise).

Whilst I appreciate you are probably just trying to be obtuse, I think it is clear no one would expect the example traveller you give to switch mode.

As for having a referendum in a car plant - that is not how anyone makes policy. Otherwise we might get a government putting large tarrifs on imports...

If you look at the DfT data for the M62 there's 90,000 cars per day.

If we assume that we could see a reduction of 10%, that's 9,000 cars off the road. Over a 15 hour day with an extra 2tph that's an average of 150 people per service.

Assuming they average daily train capacity should be circa 25% then the trains would be to be 4 coaches long.

That's enough to justify increasing the frequency of the stopping services.

If we could achieve the same (10%) that would be enough to justify 4tph on the new line (2tph existing and 2tph for new services).

That doesn't account for any growth in travel.
 

The Planner

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Not the view of the LYR (who did then have the Wigan cut-off).

There is a £17Bn+ price tag to the new proposal which will leave most of the present routes unimproved, so there's scope for some alternative, lesser, even big ticket schemes. Not every Lancastrian is aiming for RAF Ringway (aka MIA!).
No one is interested in what occurred pre nationalisation, and I don't understand why people need to use a name for an air base that hasn't existed since 1957 according to Google.
 

gc4946

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I'd back a new Liverpool-Manchester high speed line because it allows for connections from both cities to HS2 once it's extended north of the Midlands.
It creates extra capacity releasing the existing Chat Moss and CLC lines for increased local stopping services.
The Manchester Piccadilly station will be underground and hopefully aligned in a NE-SW direction for extension towards Yorkshire.
 

Grumpy Git

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I've recently been travelling on a lot of short-haul flights out of Manchester. It doesn't go unnoticed, that when travelling home on a Friday, the train journey from MIA to LPY often takes longer than the flight I arrived on.

The Liverpool-Manchester (and onward to MIA) rail service is woeful.
 

Tremzinho

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I've recently been travelling on a lot of short-haul flights out of Manchester. It doesn't go unnoticed, that when travelling home on a Friday, the train journey from MIA to LPY often takes longer than the flight I arrived on.

The Liverpool-Manchester (and onward to MIA) rail service is woeful.
Yes it’s woeful, but so are the links to Liverpool Airport.

These plans will mean you can get from Liverpool to Manchester Airport in half the time it takes to get to Liverpool Airport from the city centre, and which point you might as well close Liverpool Airport.

It’s incredible that the LCR Mayor is incapable of seeing what this scheme could do to airport jobs in Liverpool, and has no plan to redress the imbalance other than creating a new bendy-bus route.

The chances are it will also lead to the slashing of long distance routes from Liverpool. Politicians aren’t going to want to see empty high speed trains running on their expensive new line, so the railway will force passengers to use it by removing express services on the CLC and Chat Moss routes. More people travelling beyond Manchester will have to change at Piccadilly, meaning longer journeys and less convenience.
 

HSTEd

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The chances are it will also lead to the slashing of long distance routes from Liverpool. Politicians aren’t going to want to see empty high speed trains running on their expensive new line, so the railway will force passengers to use it by removing express services on the CLC and Chat Moss routes. More people travelling beyond Manchester will have to change at Piccadilly, meaning longer journeys and less convenience.
If the route is properly engineered with acess to the lines beyond Manchester, why would they have to change at Piccadilly?

Also, why would we have express services on the CLC and Chat Moss routes that will inevitably get in the way of a high intensity local service?
 

may032

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These plans will mean you can get from Liverpool to Manchester Airport in half the time it takes to get to Liverpool Airport from the city centre, and which point you might as well close Liverpool Airport.

It’s incredible that the LCR Mayor is incapable of seeing what this scheme could do to airport jobs in Liverpool, and has no plan to redress the imbalance other than creating a new bendy-bus route.
Liverpool Gateway is clearly designed as a way to redress the balance of the Manchester Airport stop. The details just aren’t there yet but it’s the main change from the previous NPR proposals.
 

Halish Railway

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Liverpool Gateway is clearly designed as a way to redress the balance of the Manchester Airport stop. The details just aren’t there yet but it’s the main change from the previous NPR proposals.
I think the most similar comparison would be with Frankfurt Airport and Cologne/Bonn Airport, where the much more important airport for the region is served directly by a new-build high speed line, whereas Cologne airport is on a loop of the pre-existing mainline used to get high speed trains into the city and the airport generally only served by local trains.

Personally I think this is how things should work for Liverpool Airport, with local and regional trains looping off of the mainline to serve a small station rather than almost every long distance train to and from the city centre having to stop either there or at a ‘Gateway’.
 

AlastairFraser

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These plans will mean you can get from Liverpool to Manchester Airport in half the time it takes to get to Liverpool Airport from the city centre
Liverpool Airport serves a completely different experience. Manchester Airport is a sizeable hub with a big range of links to go further afield, but it's more expensive and stressful to use when heading short haul to Europe and further afield.

Liverpool Airport is very laid back with quick security and a terminal that is cheap to access from most of the city (although not fast - I've spoken about better rail links including a Merseyrail loop before I believe), so it will keep the core market of flights to Europe and continue to grow, including perhaps a few longer distance services if the A321 neo XLR is successful.
The chances are it will also lead to the slashing of long distance routes from Liverpool. Politicians aren’t going to want to see empty high speed trains running on their expensive new line, so the railway will force passengers to use it by removing express services on the CLC and Chat Moss routes.
If the proposed eastern tunnel portals are built, trains would continue from the new railway via Stalybridge to Leeds/York and further afield, as well as via Guide Bridge and Hyde to Sheffield. Especially with the frequency increase that would be enabled, that only increases connectivity!
 

daodao

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The whole thread is full of "ifs". Sunak cancelled HS2 north of Birmingham because it was not value for money in the current economic climate. This proposal for a completely new line via a roundabout route has even less potential benefit but is also likely to cost vast sums of money that the UK does not have.

However, it is reasonable to spend a little money to make modest improvements to the infrastructure and passenger services on the 2 existing direct rail lines from Liverpool to Manchester.

Despite its modest network of international scheduled routes, Manchester Airport remains primarily an airport for outgoing holiday flights to the Mediterranean and other tourist destinations. Its further development is unlikely to bring major economic benefits, so the proposed devious route of this new line to serve a station near (but not at) it, is unwarranted.
 

MPW

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I must admit feeling frustrated by all the negative comments about the new LMR. Why come to this forum if you're against railway infrastructure? In the hopes of finding out about cancelled projects to celebrate?

I am not quoting any particular post as I am mainly venting and not interested in any back and forth, which seems to always end up being a debate about cars vs rail (transport forum equivalent of Godwins Law).

There's a 60 page report linked earlier in this thread but it's as if only a single data point is used to argue against the scheme: the fastest journey times taken in isolation. The project is transformational for existing routes and connections due to the current mixing of stopping patterns. The new scheme only has a few stops in order to be fast and reliable, but crucially, all existing stations outside the scheme will benefit. A few screenshots attached on this point.
 

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The Ham

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The whole thread is full of "ifs". Sunak cancelled HS2 north of Birmingham because it was not value for money in the current economic climate. This proposal for a completely new line via a roundabout route has even less potential benefit but is also likely to cost vast sums of money that the UK does not have.

However, it is reasonable to spend a little money to make modest improvements to the infrastructure and passenger services on the 2 existing direct rail lines from Liverpool to Manchester.

Despite its modest network of international scheduled routes, Manchester Airport remains primarily an airport for outgoing holiday flights to the Mediterranean and other tourist destinations. Its further development is unlikely to bring major economic benefits, so the proposed devious route of this new line to serve a station near (but not at) it, is unwarranted.

Vs a do nothing option then you're probably right.

However, there comes a point where more capacity between the two cities is needed, then you're no longer at do nothing but doing something.

Minor upgrades aren't going to make much of a difference and so whilst cheaper might not gain you the capacity you need.

If options like widening the M62 or building a new motorway start being discussed then the costs of those would be quite a chunk of the new railway and would require other road improvements.

The risk is looking at what travel is like today and saying we don't need it, the thing is this railway isn't likely to open for around 5 years and probably is looking at 10+ year horizon for being useful.

Even if we assume travel demand of 1% per year in 15 years time traffic on the M62 would have increased from 90,000 to 105,000. That's about 5,000 vehicles and hour in the peak in each direction. A 3 lane motorway would likely to be congested at (or slightly below that) volume of traffic.

A fourth lane would get you another 20 years of growth at 1% until congestion was similar.

A railway line delivering an extra 10tph with 600 seats per train could have seated capacity of 6,000 (which is more cars than a 3 lane motorway can cope with and whilst cars have an average of 1.5 people it's unlikely that those cars with 3+ people would switch to going by train so the average is likely to be closer to 1).
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I must admit feeling frustrated by all the negative comments about the new LMR. Why come to this forum if you're against railway infrastructure? In the hopes of finding out about cancelled projects to celebrate?

I am not quoting any particular post as I am mainly venting and not interested in any back and forth, which seems to always end up being a debate about cars vs rail (transport forum equivalent of Godwins Law).
This thread on the Speculative Forum is for all opinions to be voiced, both positive and negative. You just cannot decry other thread contributors for holding a different point of view to the one that you hold and make comment of why those other thread contributors actually come to this forum.
 

Topological

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The whole thread is full of "ifs". Sunak cancelled HS2 north of Birmingham because it was not value for money in the current economic climate. This proposal for a completely new line via a roundabout route has even less potential benefit but is also likely to cost vast sums of money that the UK does not have.

However, it is reasonable to spend a little money to make modest improvements to the infrastructure and passenger services on the 2 existing direct rail lines from Liverpool to Manchester.

Despite its modest network of international scheduled routes, Manchester Airport remains primarily an airport for outgoing holiday flights to the Mediterranean and other tourist destinations. Its further development is unlikely to bring major economic benefits, so the proposed devious route of this new line to serve a station near (but not at) it, is unwarranted.
Manchester has direct flights to:

Shanghai
Beijing
Hong Kong
Singapore
Dubai
Doha
Abu Dhabi
Addis Ababa
Atlanta
Houston
Las Vegas
New York

Link for a full list: https://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/destinations-and-guides/a-z-list-of-destinations/

Somewhat more than a holiday airport. Quite a lot of business destinations in Europe as well as the holiday flights.
 

Grimsby town

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This thread on the Speculative Forum is for all opinions to be voiced, both positive and negative. You just cannot decry other thread contributors for holding a different point of view to the one that you hold and make comment of why those other thread contributors actually come to this forum.
Still it's pretty demoralising to younger people like myself that there are so many people saying all we can hope for is very small incremental improvements. Unfortunately, I think its an attitude that's permeated society, yet every other modern developed country seems to be building far more than us. I've been temporarily living in Canada, a country that is equally as terrible at building cheap public transport infrastructure but is still managing to build far more of it than the UK.
 

Topological

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Still it's pretty demoralising to younger people like myself that there are so many people saying all we can hope for is very small incremental improvements. Unfortunately, I think its an attitude that's permeated society, yet every other modern developed country seems to be building far more than us. I've been temporarily living in Canada, a country that is equally as terrible at building cheap public transport infrastructure but is still managing to build far more of it than the UK.
It is not too bad if the arguments against new infrastructure are well-founded. Some things are just really not possible for reasons that lay people may not be aware of.

However, anecdotes about people who obviously would not benefit, or votes at a factory that probably does not exist, are not well-founded. They are deliberately obtuse.

My advice to anyone who has an interest in anything is to reflect on constructive critiques, but keep going because whilst there will always be detractors, the desparation of the detractors to be contrary soon shows their desparation.
 

FrodshamJnct

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Grimsby town

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It is not too bad if the arguments against new infrastructure are well-founded. Some things are just really not possible for reasons that lay people may not be aware of.

However, anecdotes about people who obviously would not benefit, or votes at a factory that probably does not exist, are not well-founded. They are deliberately obtuse.

My advice to anyone who has an interest in anything is to reflect on constructive critiques, but keep going because whilst there will always be detractors, the desparation of the detractors to be contrary soon shows their desparation.
Agreed. I'm not going to stop advocating for improvements and hoping for better. The argument that the infrastructure is good enough doesn't stand up anyway. A comparison that is often given when arguing for NPR is the Rhine-Ruhr region. How many lines are there between Colonge and Dussledorf? Four? With some of those lines having both slow and fast lines. We're nowhere near that in northern England. If the CLC and Chat Moss lines were 4 tracked throughout and we had stations throats with 6 tracks or more and not 4 then we wouldn't be talking about a new line.

Personally I don't care how improved local and express services are achieved but I'm skeptical that turn up and go services can be achieved by upgrading the existing lines. They are just too constrained. In terms of a new line, I can see the benefits of serving South Manchester. Journey times from there to Liverpool/Warrington are awful by rail. I can also see the argument for a more direct and faster route between city centres. Either would release the capacity needed for improved local services. Again I don't really care which is built but I'm convinced something is needed.
 

Farnborough

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I also don't see why it needs to go to Manchester airport to achieve that goal either
Currently, the best Manchester Airport to Lime Street timing appears to be ~90 minutes (via Piccadilly!)

Driving, or taking a taxi, is therefore a more viable option.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Currently, the best Manchester Airport to Lime Street timing appears to be ~90 minutes (via Piccadilly!)
Driving, or taking a taxi, is therefore a more viable option.
75 minutes mostly, the direct Chat Moss stopper is 81 minutes.
Via Crewe (Northern/WMT) is 101 minutes, but that includes a 20 minute connection.
 

frodshamfella

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Liverpool Airport serves a completely different experience. Manchester Airport is a sizeable hub with a big range of links to go further afield, but it's more expensive and stressful to use when heading short haul to Europe and further afield.

Liverpool Airport is very laid back with quick security and a terminal that is cheap to access from most of the city (although not fast - I've spoken about better rail links including a Merseyrail loop before I believe), so it will keep the core market of flights to Europe and continue to grow, including perhaps a few longer distance services if the A321 neo XLR is successful.

If the proposed eastern tunnel portals are built, trains would continue from the new railway via Stalybridge to Leeds/York and further afield, as well as via Guide Bridge and Hyde to Sheffield. Especially with the frequency increase that would be enabled, that only increases connectivity!

The reasons you stated are why I hardly ever fly from Manchester. I pretty much always fly from Liverpool.
 

Grumpy Git

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The reasons you stated are why I hardly ever fly from Manchester. I pretty much always fly from Liverpool.
Me too, particularly as I live very close to Liverpool airport. The problem is, (unless you're travelling to either Dublin or the Isle of Man), that Liverpool really is a 'holiday' airport.
 

Farnborough

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75 minutes mostly, the direct Chat Moss stopper is 81 minutes.
Via Crewe (Northern/WMT) is 101 minutes, but that includes a 20 minute connection.

Please tell me what to put in the National Rail journey planner then?

Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street shown in the attached...
 

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Topological

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That list isn’t completely up to date. The Houston flights ended in April.
I remember them saying they would end, but the list was from Manchester Airport themselves.

The point about a lot of global destinations still stands and connecting to Liverpool has obvious benefits for the wider region.

Upgrades of the CLC or Chat Moss do not deliver the global connectivity that the proposed line does.
 

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