Minstral25
Established Member
And where does the Horsham to London service turn round. Many of us quite like getting a train to Farringdon every 10/20 minutes, so London Bridge doesn’t work.
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Service recovery (or lack of) on GTR Great Northern
- Thread starter Failed Unit
- Start date
And where does the Horsham to London service turn round. Many of us quite like getting a train to Farringdon every 10/20 minutes, so London Bridge doesn’t work.
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London Bridge.
Horsham passengers would also be able to change to/from Thameslink at all of Three Bridges, Gatwick and East Croydon. I do Cambridge-Horsham occasionally, I change at East Croydon.
Or it might be possible to do a Horsham-Welwyn Garden City service, though I was thinking of all day Sevenoaks-Welwyn to maintain the off peak GN-Thameslink core service.
As with Peterborough, I think it would be necessary to retain Horsham services through the core in the peaks.
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
Kings cross station is full from dec25. And it's currently also pretty full, very difficult to divert additional services into kings cross.
Were there infrastructure issues today (well, yesterday now...) - or was it just another typical Saturday for Great Northern? I got to Cambridge North around 1730 to find the next GN train in each direction cancelled. Except the southbound turned out to be running despite the screens saying it wasn't, just that it was starting short (Ely instead of Kings Lynn) and stopping short (Cambridge rather than Kings Cross), which worked out fine for me but probably not especially helpful for most people waiting for it.
Looking at Kings Lynn departures, I see that between 1342 and 1942 they managed to run a whole one train to London, plus one more that got as far as Ely. Another great Saturday on the Great Northern!
Looking at Kings Lynn departures, I see that between 1342 and 1942 they managed to run a whole one train to London, plus one more that got as far as Ely. Another great Saturday on the Great Northern!
Failed Unit
Established Member
Does anyone know why great northern were impacted yesterday? They were hiding the under the Thameslink problems. Do the drivers diagrams mix up that much?
choochoochoo
Established Member
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It was strange that they blamed a cancellation on the Hertford branch on a failed train at Loughborough junction.
Did the driver for that train get stuck on a cancelled service and could get to the start of their workings.
Failed Unit
Established Member
It does show yesterday that the people that are calling for the Thameslink service to be split, if they did it wouldn’t make any difference. Great Northern you would have expected to be self contained. However many of the cancellations on these services were blamed on the Loughborough Junction incident. Granted drivers might live in South London. It GTR are publicly saying that the cancellations on the metro service were down to an incident South of the thames - splitting it will not resolve the ability if GTR to recover the service.
choochoochoo
Established Member
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But wouldn't splitting it mean that a GN driver wouldn’t be diagrammed on any TL service either to work it or as a passenger. Thus isolating the GN service from the fallout of TL disruption ?
Nicholas Lewis
On Moderation
What Tlk need is a better contingency plan for when things go wrong as they have only one plan that i can see which is to suspend most services and thus deprive many routes of a service. Yesterday was a prime example albeit exacerbated by engineering works where they ought to have been able to at least deliver 4 TPH spinning at Blackfriars thus keeping at least an hourly service going to destinations on the North side. The South side was more tricky but again 2 TPH spinning in platform 2 at East Croydon should be the goal. All these are significant reductions on the normal plan but the real attribute of the 700's is their ability to carry vast amounts of people so a thinning of the service doesn't create the level of overcrowding you might see on other routes so exploit that ability and keep people moving.
Failed Unit
Established Member
It is hard to know what is the best solution as interworking can also help.
If all driver changes were done at Finsbury Park as we have seen it causes chaos when the station runs out of capacity. I understand the taking stock away from its diagrams doesn’t help maintaining the fleet.
Many have commented that since LNER / Avanti reduced route knowledge recovery got worse.
If all driver changes were done at Finsbury Park as we have seen it causes chaos when the station runs out of capacity. I understand the taking stock away from its diagrams doesn’t help maintaining the fleet.
Many have commented that since LNER / Avanti reduced route knowledge recovery got worse.
Ironically they are reducing the length of the loco hauled sets to facilitate the December 2025 uplift.
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What happened at Loughborough junction? I've seen footage of people being detrained. Particularly unfortunate that Horsham to Peterborough was diverted via Streatham so the service was in tatters for much of the day.
I'm pleased to say that Southern trains were stopping at Ifield and Littlehaven. The on board supervisor was quick to correct the automatic PIS and announce the extra stops, including the short platform. Arrived in Horsham all of three minutes late and back on time at Barnham. And the air con on the 377 was working very nicely.
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Minstral25
Established Member
No thank you, we are talking a significant proportion of passengers from some stations forced to make a change and they are not just Horsham customers but also from Crawley, Horley, Redhill, Merstham and Coulsdon South.
Any change at East Croydon or London Bridge would require a platform change off trains from these stations and thus significant extension of journey time, especially for the less able as the platform changes are not convenient.
Crawley, Merstham and Coulsdon only have Peterborough Thameslink's in the off peak too and the extension of journey times if the Bedford's called additionally at these stations, would make services less useful at the bigger stations, which I'd expect would reduce patronage.
At Redhill and Horley you would be cutting a four train per hour service all day to the core to just two - which with the increased use of Farringdon for Elizabeth line would be very limiting.
Failed Unit
Established Member
In this instance I don't think that the problem was down to GTR but more network rail.
On Wednesday 25th - There was an undisclosed infrastructure problem in the Potters Bar area.
A the time I was using the trains the trains on the slow line were diverted onto the fast at Marshmoor.These times are from WGC.
0751 - London Kings Cross - Scheduled to run non-stop from Hatfield - Finsbury park.
It did, but for some reason it was put back on the slow line at New Southgate behind the 0735 WGC - Moorgate. If it had stopped at Alexander Palace the delay would be as long. No idea why it didn't stay on the fast until Finsbury Park. As a result of its extra delay it also delayed the 0822 Finsbury Park - Brighton service as it was it needed to wait for our train to vacate the platform.
0753 Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate. Sheduled to skip Welham Green as there is no platfrom on the slow. Stopped at all other stations on the fast.
0802 Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks. Scheduled to skip all stations between Hatfeld and Finsbury Park. It did but was routed on the slow line where possible. So might as well have stopped as booked as it was right up the rear of the 0753.
I must admit the 0751 is a poor performer. It was let out behind the 0753 this morning because it missed its slot at Welwyn Garden City.
It is easy to say WTF when on the train, but I don't understand the regulation yesterday, unless it was automatic route setting.
On Wednesday 25th - There was an undisclosed infrastructure problem in the Potters Bar area.
A the time I was using the trains the trains on the slow line were diverted onto the fast at Marshmoor.These times are from WGC.
0751 - London Kings Cross - Scheduled to run non-stop from Hatfield - Finsbury park.
It did, but for some reason it was put back on the slow line at New Southgate behind the 0735 WGC - Moorgate. If it had stopped at Alexander Palace the delay would be as long. No idea why it didn't stay on the fast until Finsbury Park. As a result of its extra delay it also delayed the 0822 Finsbury Park - Brighton service as it was it needed to wait for our train to vacate the platform.
0753 Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate. Sheduled to skip Welham Green as there is no platfrom on the slow. Stopped at all other stations on the fast.
0802 Welwyn Garden City - Sevenoaks. Scheduled to skip all stations between Hatfeld and Finsbury Park. It did but was routed on the slow line where possible. So might as well have stopped as booked as it was right up the rear of the 0753.
I must admit the 0751 is a poor performer. It was let out behind the 0753 this morning because it missed its slot at Welwyn Garden City.
It is easy to say WTF when on the train, but I don't understand the regulation yesterday, unless it was automatic route setting.
Track circuit failure + possible track defect.
They've abandoned the Kings Lynn branch entirely for the rest of the day. Given the broken down freight seems to be north of Watlington, I'm not sure why they can't run to Downham Market and reverse there, but I guess that would involve GN actually having a plan for disruption, which is another area where they appear to be rather lacking.
Railperf
Established Member
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I'm on 1A41 Leeds to Kings Cross. Running on time through Stevenage, but a Thameslink Cambridge to Brighton service left Cambridge 4 late. It did not manage to recover any time to Stevenage, and departed there 4 late too. And now it has been put out ahead of the LNER service fast line all the way to Finsbury Park! I'm surprised the signallers put the Thameslink out ahead, but I guessing there is more of a worry that if it hits the core too late, then it will face further delay trying to get through South London.
bramling
Veteran Member
I believe the regulating policy tends to favour prioritising Thameslink trains for exactly that reason. In the northbound / down direction priority tends to go to longer-distance services instead.
That said, there’s plenty of cases where up Thameslink services end up getting held at Woolmer Green in preference to LNER.
Railperf
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In this case it worked out well. The LNER service had some 2.5 mins additional time in its schedule approaching KIngs Cross and ended up 1 min late by the public timetable but three minutes late on the working times.
The Cambridge to Brighton also had some spare time and departed Finsbury Park 2.5 min late and ended up making up the rest of the time on the way to Brighton.
Thankfully 9J55 Peterborough to Horsham was not put out in front at Peterborough, but it was let out in front of Grand Central 1A66 instead - 20 mins down on schedule.
The Thameslink service made up 5 mins of its almost 20 min late start by Finsbury Park. But was presented at the core 15 down. It seems to have had a craking run from London Bridge to East Croydon is something like 12 mins. And then may have skipped a few stops south of there to arrive in Horsham on time.
The GC service due to copious amounts of allowances managed to arrive early. So again - a good regulating decision by signallers.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Some of Kings Lynn services yesterday were turned at Downham Market but I just don’t get regulation on the ECML at times. In particular my example last week when the 0802 was declared as non-stop from Hatfield which would have meant it arrived at Finsbury Park on time if they had ran it on the fast. Instead it was stuck behind the Moorgate so could have made all its stops and arrived as late as it did anyway.
The other pet hate I saw last night was the stopping additionally of services. This is welcome of course. However they don’t see to tell anyone until the last minute. So if for example you are heading from Stevenage - Welwyn Garden City and see your train is cancelled you take alternative means. Only to find out if you had hung around they had stopped another services additionally. My worse example of this was once where I was on a Brighton - Cambridge, got off at Finsbury Park, off it went and then stopped at Welwyn Garden City. Granted in this case my plan was to change at Finsbury Park, but had I known I would have stayed on.
The other pet hate I saw last night was the stopping additionally of services. This is welcome of course. However they don’t see to tell anyone until the last minute. So if for example you are heading from Stevenage - Welwyn Garden City and see your train is cancelled you take alternative means. Only to find out if you had hung around they had stopped another services additionally. My worse example of this was once where I was on a Brighton - Cambridge, got off at Finsbury Park, off it went and then stopped at Welwyn Garden City. Granted in this case my plan was to change at Finsbury Park, but had I known I would have stayed on.
It's quite possible Stevenage (or Finsbury Park) is where the driver is asked to do those additional stops. Until then it may not be advertised in case they refuse (which they can and sometimes do).
Failed Unit
Established Member
Interesting but makes sense.
I have given up trying to figure out regulation on this route.
This morning I was travelling to Finsbury Park. Had a choice of the 0800 or 0809 from WGC. The 0809 was supposed to arrive first. I expected they would put it onto the empty fast at either Marshmore or Potters Bar. What really happened? No prizes for following the Moorgate all the way including its stops. Another avoidable delay. Why isn’t it possible to regulate the service correctly on a Sunday?
I have given up trying to figure out regulation on this route.
This morning I was travelling to Finsbury Park. Had a choice of the 0800 or 0809 from WGC. The 0809 was supposed to arrive first. I expected they would put it onto the empty fast at either Marshmore or Potters Bar. What really happened? No prizes for following the Moorgate all the way including its stops. Another avoidable delay. Why isn’t it possible to regulate the service correctly on a Sunday?
What are folk's views on Kings Cross to Scotland xx00/xx30 departures along with xx03/xx33 Kings Cross to Leeds departures being held on the run-up to Finsbury Park to let a late-running Horsham-Peterborough finish loading at Finsbury Park and then take up pole position on the fast line? It may well be absolutely the right course of action as the LNERs will likely recover the time but just seems strange when two long-distance trains defer to a multiple unit.
jammmmmsssssss
Member
Thameslinks are class 9 headcodes, so have higher priority than LNERs, which are class 1
I thought that was for prioritisation into the core, to avoid missing their slot in the busy section, not to delay long distance expresses at the start of their journey?
Steve Harris
Member
At a guess I would say that is ARS kicking in.
I can't remember what thread it was mentioned in but since Kings Cross and Peterborough PSB's were recontroled to York ROC ARS has been installed on the route from KX to Stoke Tunnel.
It's
All I do know is since the recontrol the regulation has gone to pot somewhat.
Edited details as I found this : https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-behind-moorgate-stopper.271444/#post-6869781
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jammmmmsssssss
Member
Probably, but maybe it's the ARS applying that everywhere
Someone should tell signallers that on the GWML in that case then!
In reality it doesn’t quite work like that and regulation into the core is more important.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Maybe. But considering the conflict points at Newark, Doncaster and York. I suspect the LNER losing time there is not exactly for the greater good. Regulation is awful under ARS.
The computers don’t seem to understand that holding an on- time Great Northern service due to stop at Welwyn North for an LNER to pass often results in a late start for the Kings Lynn service going north. Especially when the held service misses its slot at WGC and gets stuck behind the Moorgate.
Steve Harris
Member
Unless ARS has AI "the computers" will do what they are programmed to do.
As the old programming saying goes... garbage in = garbage out.