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That wouldn't be GBR, that would be HS2. The problem is that SW-Scotland demand is pretty low, and I don't think Bristol-Birmingham can take more than 2tph, so it would have to lose it's direct link to Manchester or Leeds, both of which likely see more demand than Scotland, though there is an argument for changing the Bristol-Manchester to a Exeter-Scotland. ( 2 fast tph between Bristol and Exeter).
This would also enable a Birmingham-Manchetester HS2 service, however to do that with Phase 1 would require split/joins at Crewe for Liverpool, Lancaster and Chester-London trains given the limited paths through Colwich.
That wouldn't be GBR, that would be HS2. The problem is that SW-Scotland demand is pretty low, and I don't think Bristol-Birmingham can take more than 2tph, so it would have to lose it's direct link to Manchester or Leeds, both of which likely see more demand than Scotland, though there is an argument for changing the Bristol-Manchester to a Exeter-Scotland. ( 2 fast tph between Bristol and Exeter).
This would also enable a Birmingham-Manchetester HS2 service, however to do that with Phase 1 would require split/joins at Crewe for Liverpool, Lancaster and Chester-London trains given the limited paths through Colwich.
Yes but there is also demand from NW to the south west, it isn't just Scotland that would gain a new route. Opens up the Liverpool, Manchester areas to the south west as well as huge tourist draws like the Lake district. Not to mention the current awful connections at Birmingham from the WCML onto the Birmingham to Plymouth route. One has to hope GBR will give us at least a few trains on this axis eventually.
That wouldn't be GBR, that would be HS2. The problem is that SW-Scotland demand is pretty low, and I don't think Bristol-Birmingham can take more than 2tph, so it would have to lose it's direct link to Manchester or Leeds, both of which likely see more demand than Scotland, though there is an argument for changing the Bristol-Manchester to a Exeter-Scotland. ( 2 fast tph between Bristol and Exeter).
This would also enable a Birmingham-Manchetester HS2 service, however to do that with Phase 1 would require split/joins at Crewe for Liverpool, Lancaster and Chester-London trains given the limited paths through Colwich.
Not every train needs to go to Leeds or Manchester. Running via the WCML also reconnects north west stations with the SW without the need for changing at Brum or Manchester.
Showing my age but for me "InterCity" would have a comparable ambience to HST / hauled Mk-III / aircon Mk-II.
I've never travelled in an 80x I have to admit, but they seem to be the standard for InterCity travel nowadays. With that caveat, rolling an 80x type unit out throughout the XC network would make sense as it would make the network comparable to London-based IC routes.
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I think "light refreshments" are a different topic. I worry that when posters here talk about on train catering they mean some kind of 1920's style silver service restaurant car which is simply not practical in the 21 st century.
As for the 2 hour journey I suspect most just do what i do and buy a drink before departure.
It would be nice to give people the option of a tea and a light snack en-route though, certainly for fairly long journeys like Weymouth to Waterloo. They might not feel like a drink at the departure time, but might an hour or two later. (Weymouth-Waterloo is considerably longer than 2 hours; it's 1hr15 Southampton-Waterloo alone).
Isn't that what the free market (which is supposedly what drives things nowadays) is all about? Customer choice?
Not every train needs to go to Leeds or Manchester. Running via the WCML also reconnects north west stations with the SW without the need for changing at Brum or Manchester.
It also complicates the operation though. At present, the through Scotland to London via West Midlands service provides Wolverhampton's through link with London, and running it to through to London with Pendolinos has provided more capacity on the services than if Voyagers had continued.
From a purely operational standpoint, running a given through service hourly is easier than having multiple destinations for that service in alternate hours.
One of the outcomes of GBR is to simplify things and reduce costs, which having more complex operations doesn't seem to achieve.
It also complicates the operation though. At present, the through Scotland to London via West Midlands service provides Wolverhampton's through link with London, and running it to through to London with Pendolinos has provided more capacity on the services than if Voyagers had continued.
From a purely operational standpoint, running a given through service hourly is easier than having multiple destinations for that service in alternate hours.
One of the outcomes of GBR is to simplify things and reduce costs, which having more complex operations doesn't seem to achieve.
With HS2 giving London to the W Midlands a service would that not free up capacity on the lower half of the WCML?
Why would a SW-NW service be more complex, it worked well years ago.
With HS2 giving London to the W Midlands a service would that not free up capacity on the lower half of the WCML?
Why would a SW-NW service be more complex, it worked well years ago.
That isn't the problem. Its north of Barnt Green and north of New St is where you'll struggle. Remember that the New St Scotland is effectively in the old XC path.
I suppose you could argue that the West Mids to Scotland train could be diverted to an XC destination once HS2 comes along, but I'm not sure I'd agree with that, if it were even possible.
Let's be clear here. Cross Country in its current guise is really just a glorified stitching together of lots of regional services. Things like Stafford - Birmingham and Macclesfield - Manchester are absolutely commuter flows where the frequencies provided by Cross Country are the baseline not 'bonus'.
As far as catering is concerned, most of Cross Country's passengers are far too short-distance to be on-trains catering's captive market and as several others have explained the economics just isn't there.
Let's be clear here. Cross Country in its current guise is really just a glorified stitching together of lots of regional services. Things like Stafford - Birmingham and Macclesfield - Manchester are absolutely commuter flows where the frequencies provided by Cross Country are the baseline not 'bonus'.
As far as catering is concerned, most of Cross Country's passengers are far too short-distance to be on-trains catering's captive market and as several others have explained the economics just isn't there.
If certainly does cater to that market, but there are no shortage of Man Picc to Oxford and Stockport to Banbury seat reservations when I'm travelling on them.
I think it's primarily a medium distance operator (between 1 and 3 hour journeys), at least on the Manchester - Reading section.
Saying that, personally I prefer to get my refreshments before boarding: the choice and quality at/near Oxford station is much better than what the train can offer, though that's not always the case at the other stations I use. New Street and Manchester have plenty, but there's not much happening at Stafford.
If certainly does cater to that market, but there are no shortage of Man Picc to Oxford and Stockport to Banbury seat reservations when I'm travelling on them.
I think it's primarily a medium distance operator (between 1 and 3 hour journeys), at least on the Manchester - Reading section.
Saying that, personally I prefer to get my refreshments before boarding: the choice and quality at/near Oxford station is much better than what the train can offer, though that's not always the case at the other stations I use. New Street and Manchester have plenty, but there's not much happening at Stafford.
Well exactly, even Manchester - Oxford isn't captive to on-train catering, then what chance does it have? The intersection of long enough distance AND poor food offering at both ends of the journey is vanishingly small.
Saying that, personally I prefer to get my refreshments before boarding: the choice and quality at/near Oxford station is much better than what the train can offer, though that's not always the case at the other stations I use. New Street and Manchester have plenty, but there's not much happening at Stafford
A large Tesco just across the road at Stafford is ideal for any downtime caused by waiting for connections there. I'd imagine very few people travel longer distance without some food and drink supplies.
A large Tesco just across the road at Stafford is ideal for any downtime caused by waiting for connections there. I'd imagine very few people travel longer distance without some food and drink supplies.
The Wetherspoons at Stafford a couple of hundred yards across the park is a superb conversion of an old cinema, one of the best of theirs that I have seen.
I've never travelled in an 80x I have to admit, but they seem to be the standard for InterCity travel nowadays. With that caveat, rolling an 80x type unit out throughout the XC network would make sense as it would make the network comparable to London-based IC routes.
That has to be true if you’re recommending the DfT orders them for XC. They’d do better with a Desiro Verve or an Alstom or Stadler build. But since the DfT didn’t maintain intercity standards with GWR I doubt they will for XC either.
As far as catering is concerned, most of Cross Country's passengers are far too short-distance to be on-trains catering's captive market and as several others have explained the economics just isn't there
Even when the economics is there like with GWR, serving many stations hours from London with scant nearby catering they still scrapped the shop for a trolley. They also had every unit fitted with a kitchen when only three return services per day offer the Pullman dining that uses it.
Don’t expect any decision to be well thought through, and expect the can to be kicked down the road as long as it will go.
Well exactly, even Manchester - Oxford isn't captive to on-train catering, then what chance does it have? The intersection of long enough distance AND poor food offering at both ends of the journey is vanishingly small.
The issue is we're viewing onboard catering as a distress purchase. That's reasonable if we were just going to put in a couple of vending machines and move on. If we are going to put effort in (pay humans) we can try and provide a better product than the objectively poor product/service provider by WHsmith etc.
Filling a trolley with preprepared heated meals, ordered online would enable the railway to serve almost restaurant quality food. Though I would argue a Roboburger style hot food vending machine would be perfect for XC.
Fine, but how is it going to be affordable, varied enough that there is something people want to buy, and reliable enough that people know they can buy on board? The maligned 'shop' on the XC Voyagers wasn't actually a badly presented format, but the railway still saw fit to remove it in favour of luggage racks.
Disagree. The current Cross Country network has been around in a more or less recognisable form for decades. The NE-SW route has operated since the 19th century. The biggest difference is the implementation of a near-clockface timetable by Virgin, and that was over 20 years ago. Arguably the existing network is the result of a long rationalisation of a complex web of long distance cross-country services rather than stitching together shorter regional services.
Fine, but how is it going to be affordable, varied enough that there is something people want to buy, and reliable enough that people know they can buy on board? The maligned 'shop' on the XC Voyagers wasn't actually a badly presented format, but the railway still saw fit to remove it in favour of luggage racks.
Clear advertising - hot meals available onboard, with online ordering. Doesn't need to cater to every possible taste - a few meals options that appeal to most people and can be quickly heated up en masse is perfect. I would much rather have some proper food than a meal deal sandwich, and would (and do) gladly pay for the privilege. Doesn't need to be via a buffet car, having a galley at the end of the train is completely fine so long as it isn't used as an excuse to abandon proper service as in the case of GWR.
I now realise my advocacy for FLIRTs is misplaced given the depot costs for a microfleet. The choice is between 7 car 80x and 8 car civity. CAF is probably cheaper, with more flexibility, slightly higher capacity, and tri-mode capability, making it the likely best solution for a 10-12 train microfleet for XC. 43 6 car 324 seat voyagers alongside 11 8 car 500 seat Civities works well in terms of providing adequate capacity, while limiting growth in fleet size.
They run a second one at peak times on weekdays - 14:45 Reading - Newcastle (leaves Birmingham New Street at 16:30) runs via Leeds. But not one the other way for some reason.
Clear advertising - hot meals available onboard, with online ordering. Doesn't need to cater to every possible taste - a few meals options that appeal to most people and can be quickly heated up en masse is perfect. I would much rather have some proper food than a meal deal sandwich, and would (and do) gladly pay for the privilege. Doesn't need to be via a buffet car, having a galley at the end of the train is completely fine so long as it isn't used as an excuse to abandon proper service as in the case of GWR.
I now realise my advocacy for FLIRTs is misplaced given the depot costs for a microfleet. The choice is between 7 car 80x and 8 car civity. CAF is probably cheaper, with more flexibility, slightly higher capacity, and tri-mode capability, making it the likely best solution for a 10-12 train microfleet for XC. 43 6 car 324 seat voyagers alongside 11 8 car 500 seat Civities works well in terms of providing adequate capacity, while limiting growth in fleet size.
I've also suggested FLIRTs as a possible solution, with 9 car variants for the Long Distance work and 5 car variants (assuming SDO fitted) for the 170 routes. All bi-modes. A small amount of fill-in wiring in the Birmingham area would mean no need for diesel power in New Street from these trains - A pan up zone at Landor St Junction and wires to Grand Junction, a similar pan up zone at Stoke Works Junction, and the fast lines wired from Longbridge - King's Norton, which actually benefits WMR as well, giving some operational flexibility. There's currently a big focus on diesel emissions on New St, if they went forward with this the only diesel traction to use it regularly would be the hourly TfW service and the WMR Shrewsbury. That's got to improve the station environment dramatically.
As I said in my previous post in this, the advantages would be simplification of crew knowledge as effectively there would be one traction type across the business, which could well help with the current crewing issues.
I appreciate that depot outstabling & fitter knowledge becomes an issue, I'd suggest a similar set up to the current one with Voyagers, with a central hub depot to maintain the fleet, and outstations doing daily checks etc.
As I’ve posted many times on this forum, XC loses out on the distribution of revenue on several flows e.g., GWR provides half the service on the Exeter - Taunton - Bristol - Cheltenham route and is allocated 50% of the fare income from open ticket sales between those stations, yet 90% of passengers between those stations use the quicker XC services.
As far as catering is concerned, most of Cross Country's passengers are far too short-distance to be on-trains catering's captive market and as several others have explained the economics just isn't there.
Are most XC passengers short-distance? Are many passengers not going from the South to the Midlands or the North?
I do maintain that not everyone might feel like a drink when they board a train for a 3- or 4-hour journey but might feel like that drink 2 hours in.
For this reason I continue to maintain that inter-city routes like XC or the prime routes out of London need to offer at least a trolley service.
Just speaking from my own behaviour when I used XC regularly (mostly from the late 90s to the 10s; have had little need to go up north since Covid) - I reguarly made use of the trolley on XC, and when going via Euston I regularly used the buffet counter. Not for a full hot meal, but certainly a tea and a snack.
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Disagree. The current Cross Country network has been around in a more or less recognisable form for decades. The NE-SW route has operated since the 19th century. The biggest difference is the implementation of a near-clockface timetable by Virgin, and that was over 20 years ago. Arguably the existing network is the result of a long rationalisation of a complex web of long distance cross-country services rather than stitching together shorter regional services.
The history of XC is quite a fascinating thing, particularly the Reading route - you learn a lot by accessing old timetables from the 70s which have become available in recent years.
Basically it came about via Paddington to Birmingham services being diverted from via-High Wycombe to via-Oxford in the 70s, and for several years there was an alternating Paddington-Birmingham and Paddington-Worcester service on a clockface timetable (see 1973 WR timetable on Timetable World).
In addition there were a small number of through services from Hampshire and Dorset, often nicely timetabled to fill the 2-hour gaps between Birmingham services. These included a long-standing Poole-Newcastle and v.v. and a couple of Liverpools.
In 1979 there was a ramp-up of South Coast services through the addition of the Brightons, and gradually over the next 5 years the number of Paddingtons were cut and the number of South Coast services increased, so that by 1984 most Reading-Birmingham services originated from the South Coast and most Paddington services were short workings to Oxford, with the occasional Worcester or Hereford extension (regular through Worcesters having ceased in 1982). The Oxford shorts, interestingly, were often still IC-standard, with many services HST or aircon Mk-II.
Let's be clear here. Cross Country in its current guise is really just a glorified stitching together of lots of regional services. Things like Stafford - Birmingham and Macclesfield - Manchester are absolutely commuter flows where the frequencies provided by Cross Country are the baseline not 'bonus'.
As far as catering is concerned, most of Cross Country's passengers are far too short-distance to be on-trains catering's captive market and as several others have explained the economics just isn't there.
Tell that to the chap I sat next to recently from Sheffield to Newcastle, too full for any catering to move down the train. He was on his way from Newton Abbot to Glasgow having started in Torquay and heading for somewhere up the West Highland line to pick up a boat. He was a seasoned traveller on XC so knew what to expect and had a large bag of provisions with him.
This is a strength and weakness of XC. An overlapping mix of infrequent long distance travellers combined with greater numbers of shorter distance commuters and allsorts of other travellers along the way, the load factors fluctuating massively from end to end depending on times of day.
On Saturday I noted two northbound XC services heading into Sheffield within 10 minutes. Tracking across the country there were multiple points of delay. Between Chesterfield and Sheffield alone XC loadings can be distorted by missing Northern or EMR services. That's replicated from Penzance to Scotland with XC forming part of many a local hourly or half hourly shorter distance service.
It's an absolute nightmare of conflicting priorities.
Tell that to the chap I sat next to recently from Sheffield to Newcastle, too full for any catering to move down the train. He was on his way from Newton Abbot to Glasgow having started in Torquay and heading for somewhere up the West Highland line to pick up a boat. He was a seasoned traveller on XC so knew what to expect and had a large bag of provisions with him.
This is a strength and weakness of XC. An overlapping mix of infrequent long distance travellers combined with greater numbers of shorter distance commuters and allsorts of other travellers along the way, the load factors fluctuating massively from end to end depending on times of day.
On Saturday I noted two northbound XC services heading into Sheffield within 10 minutes. Tracking across the country there were multiple points of delay. Between Chesterfield and Sheffield alone XC loadings can be distorted by missing Northern or EMR services. That's replicated from Penzance to Scotland with XC forming part of many a local hourly or half hourly shorter distance service.
It's an absolute nightmare of conflicting priorities.
In theory it should be more of a strength than a weakness. Intercity services to/from London are still dominated by uni-directional peak flows, so for much of the day they are carting fresh air around (or more correctly they massively discount advanced fares to fill up the trains). XC by contrast has lots of flows in lots of directions, so it should have a more spread out demand which is more efficient.
Longer trains is the short to medium term answer, the longer term answer is building a proper HS X network so we can rid ourselves of XC forever and regions can then quite rightly take over these services.
It's a nice to have, but ultimately these trains need more seats, more luggage space - vs a buffet. Trolley all well and good, but not if the aisles are full of people!
I prefer a move to Japan-style end car vending machines (doesn't work at thirds) - or even better - buy at the station and be prepared!
Tell that to the chap I sat next to recently from Sheffield to Newcastle, too full for any catering to move down the train. He was on his way from Newton Abbot to Glasgow having started in Torquay and heading for somewhere up the West Highland line to pick up a boat. He was a seasoned traveller on XC so knew what to expect and had a large bag of provisions with him.
Of course, there are many people who use these for longer, ad hoc journeys. But the core of the route is really many overlapping regional pairs and of course much long distance and business travel into Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Bristol and Reading. Plus some really long slogs - which are not the core business but definitely nice to offer. And it's more efficient having through trains not blocking up platforms and lines in the middle of the network.
I do agree that longer trains is the obvious first step. The next would be an incremental extensions new stock might allow in the same core slots (e.g. all Bristol terminators to Exeter, re-instate Reading-Newcastle and the Southamptons) - - - - or adjacent new services which help relieve XC (Chiltern Moor St to Oxford, as an example, or the Bristol/Cardiffs mentioned in the Midlands hub from Moor St too)
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