Can GBR bring XC back up to INTERCITY standard?

[Sad Sprinter]

But what does that mean or look like in the 21st century ?

On train catering is finished. Just go to Greggs!

Is it though? If I'm leaving Weymouth at 2 pm and wont be back into Waterloo by almost 5 I think I'd like a cup of tea halfway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2025 ==

I'm certain I bought a coffee at Plymouth station before, though I forget what chain it was. If it's closed, I'm sure another one will take its place in due course.

The ones I've found more of an issue are rural or small-town stations - the Far North Line might actually sustain a trolley more effectively than WMT London-Birmingham services, for example.

Edit: Oh, Plymouth is "Cafe Local"? To be honest their coffee is better than the Bucks and cheaper too. Anyone can buy a bean to cup machine, it's not hard to do good coffee these days as long as you bother to clean it properly.

Haywards Heath has two coffee bars, one for each platform island.

 

[DarloRich]

Is it though? If I'm leaving Weymouth at 2 pm and wont be back into Waterloo by almost 4 I think I'd like a cup of tea halfway.

I think "light refreshments" are a different topic. I worry that when posters here talk about on train catering they mean some kind of 1920's style silver service restaurant car which is simply not practical in the 21 st century.

As for the 2 hour journey I suspect most just do what i do and buy a drink before departure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it though? If I'm leaving Weymouth at 2 pm and wont be back into Waterloo by almost 4 I think I'd like a cup of tea halfway.

TBH the best way to ensure this these days is probably to get a properly closable thermal cup, pop over to McDs (just across the way from Weymouth station) and buy two, one to drink now in the cup provided and one for later in your thermal cup. Pretty sure I did exactly that last time I travelled from Weymouth!

The problem is probably more M&S Food and the likes killing sales of sandwiches and microwaved gristleburgers in a soggy bun - you don't really make much money selling tea, and trolley coffee is invariably rubbish because a full sized espresso machine doesn't fit on a trolley, and the alternatives tend to produce bad coffee. In Switzerland I have seen a Nespresso machine on a trolley which you could certainly do, but in the UK people don't want "short" coffees like that, they want a half pint (or in some cases even a pint) of latte or similar. The coffee bags and filter cups you sometimes see are OK, but they're just filter coffee, and even at the Bucks (when they bother to put it on) it's the cheapest drink, and only a quid at Pret.

 

[Trainbike46]

I think "light refreshments" are a different topic. I worry that when posters here talk about on train catering they mean some kind of 1920's style silver service restaurant car which is simply not practical in the 21 st century.

As for the 2 hour journey I suspect most just do what i do and buy a drink before departure.

A buffet/bar like is present on Avanti, LNER, or Eurostar, selling hot & cold drinks, snacks, sandwiches, and meals that are designed to be nice when microwaved would be perfectly sensible on XC, in my view. You should be able to fit a decent coffee machine in an onboard shop!

The problem is probably more M&S Food and the likes killing sales of sandwiches and microwaved gristleburgers in a soggy bun - you don't really make much money selling tea, and trolley coffee is invariably rubbish because a full sized espresso machine doesn't fit on a trolley, and the alternatives tend to produce bad coffee. In Switzerland I have seen a Nespresso machine on a trolley which you could certainly do, but in the UK people don't want "short" coffees like that, they want a half pint (or in some cases even a pint) of latte or similar. The coffee bags and filter cups you sometimes see are OK, but they're just filter coffee, and even at the Bucks (when they bother to put it on) it's the cheapest drink, and only a quid at Pret.

The key things is to focus on things you can do well, in my view. If you're microwaving the food, you shouldn't offer burgers, but instead offer something like a soup, a chilli, or a risotto, all of which taste great when microwaved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A buffet/bar like is present on Avanti, LNER, or Eurostar, selling hot & cold drinks, snacks, sandwiches, and meals that are designed to be nice when microwaved would be perfectly sensible on XC, in my view. You should be able to fit a decent coffee machine in an onboard shop!

TBH rather than the shop I think a Eurostar style "standing bar area" would make more sense. Some will choose to stand and drink there. Or you can do a fairly small one in a vestibule end as per the Voyager ones, still plenty of room for a proper coffee machine as both Voyagers and Pendolinos have had from day one.

The key things is to focus on things you can do well, in my view. If you're microwaving the food, you shouldn't offer burgers, but instead offer something like a soup, a chilli, or a risotto, all of which taste great when microwaved.

I'd agree with that. You can also get away with these sorts of products being hermetically sealed which means you can keep a large stock on board without any need for refrigeration (unlike even sandwiches). Tinned Stagg chilli tastes perfectly good enough for serving on a train, for instance, as does canned soup. You obviously wouldn't have them in cans, but sealed in plastic lined cardboard pots in which they can be served.

DB's onboard menu (aside from the microwaveable chips) gives you a bit of an idea - pretty much everything they sell, from Currywurst to Bockwurst to Goulash, doesn't lose quality when microwaved. Indeed stuff like chilli and curry, which I often cook at home, often tastes *better* when reheated as flavours have had time to infuse.

 

[DarloRich]

A buffet/bar like is present on Avanti, LNER, or Eurostar, selling hot & cold drinks, snacks, sandwiches, and meals that are designed to be nice when microwaved would be perfectly sensible on XC, in my view. You should be able to fit a decent coffee machine in an onboard shop!

no problem if a full length train. If not you are eating up valuable seating space. it is a trade off sadly.

A buffet/bar like is present on Avanti, LNER, or Eurostar, selling hot & cold drinks, snacks, sandwiches, and meals that are designed to be nice when microwaved would be perfectly sensible on XC, in my view. You should be able to fit a decent coffee machine in an onboard shop!


The key things is to focus on things you can do well, in my view. If you're microwaving the food, you shouldn't offer burgers, but instead offer something like a soup, a chilli, or a risotto, all of which taste great when microwaved.

agreed - you will only make catering even close to viable by offering, er, nice food!

 

[Bletchleyite]

no problem if a full length train. If not you are eating up valuable seating space. it is a trade off sadly.

Removing them didn't gain seating (other than that I once sat on the floor under the rack in there). It did gain luggage capacity, but that is only really needed because Voyagers have such uselessly small overhead racks. You just don't see the same issue on 80x because the overheads are huge.

 

[HSTEd]

I think you would definitely need any food prep area to be at the end of the train though - so you don't need an interior gangway that will eat up space.

Serving both standard and first class would be really difficult in that case, though.

I have no issue with a compact galley on a long train, but I don't think a full blown restaurant is really a good idea. Our journeys just aren't long enough and our loading gauge is just too small.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There isn't really any need for a full-scale food prep area on a train. It's a gimmick. Most pubs use "foodservice" food that just requires some form of reheating (be that sous-vide steaks in various cooking levels, microwaveable curries or deep-fryable* chips) and people are perfectly happy with that.

* Obviously chips on a train is never likely to be part of the offering for the very obvious safety reasons of having a large vat of boiling fat on a moving train.

 

[RailWonderer]

In a world of cost cutting etc, the 80x is the only rationale choice going forward for XC, as traincrew and engineering knowledge is widespread throughout the UK now. In many ways, the 80x has become the equivalent of the TGV (albeit far slower!). Muddying the waters with a 745 type train for every region of the UK to have to learn and maintain at night isn't going to help with Labour's cost cutting mission.

If there are factories like Derby and Newport that need work the government will want to keep them open. Then drivers and crew will need training regardless of what manufacturer builds the train, it will still be new to that specific route.

On train catering is finished. Just go to Greggs!

? Plenty of long distance services justify tea, coffee, pastries, crisps and chocolate and some fruit to keep the blood sugar up on a long journey. If not a shop, a trolley is very handy because not all passengers will board from stations with good facilities like London terminals have. On train coffee mahcines like many IR and IC trains in Europe would work well.

 

[AHBD]

* Obviously chips on a train is never likely to be part of the offering for the very obvious safety reasons of having a large vat of boiling fat on a moving train.

The dangers of hot fat is what lead to the invention of modern air fryers (as patented by

Fred Van Der Weij who was thinking specifically of safer chips apparently) surely?​

 

[Brubulus]

Lincoln can't take a 9-car 80x?

a fleet of proper-length 125mph bimode FLIRTS would be really good. The reason I proposed reusing existing 80x is that it would enable the removal of 5-car units from other IC operations. For the most part, buying 5-car IC units was a mistake, but in my view they'd be less problematic on XC, because they're still a massive capacity upgrade:

- 4-car 221: 186 seats
- 5-car 221: 246 seats
- 5-car 80x: 302/326 seats (LNER/GWR)

The issue with taking the other 5 car 80x is that it will create too much fleet complexity, in that GWR will have to replace their lost trains, and XC will not have enough units, so have to order more trains anyway.

Going back to the point of catering, it would be easy to provide hot, restaurant quality meals onboard.

Assuming app based ordering is used, this could involve staff in a small onboard kitchen preparing meals by the heating of pre prepared products, which would be loaded on to a trolley and served, as is done on airlines.

A secondary option would be off train food preparation, with hot meals loaded onto trains at stations (this requires level boarding)

However, staff load is reduced and productivity increased if this food heating is done at a fixed site, instead of at the far end of the train, and there could be a fixed point for food pickup. Maybe there could also be a coffee vending machine. Therefore a micro buffet between first and standard and no actual kitchen is likely the most effective way of organising catering.

The solution to catering on regional express services, is simply a couple of vending machines that can provide the same service as a trolley, but without the additional cost of staff.

There is no real reason to not have 125mph on XC services, it keeps scope for upgrades and enhancements, alongside ensuring fleet commonality.

125mph flirts are probably the best option, with vestibule doors in the middle of each coach, followed by 7 or 9 car 80x or even more 897, if they are substantially cheaper.

 

[HSTEd]

Therefore a micro buffet between first and standard and no actual kitchen is likely the most effective way of organising catering.

The problem with a buffet in the middle of the train is that you throw away way more train length than at the end.
You have to provide a gangway for passengers to move through the train, which is space that cannot be used for buffet equipment.

 

[Trainbike46]

The issue with taking the other 5 car 80x is that it will create too much fleet complexity, in that GWR will have to replace their lost trains, and XC will not have enough units, so have to order more trains anyway.

If the Lincoln services can take 9-car 80x, there are enough 5-car 80x for XC by taking the 5-cars from both GWR and LNER. I counted out the numbers in this post proposing the cascade. In short, that would give XC 80 5-car 80x, which is 2 more units than there are voyagers, and X doesn't have all voyagers.

GWR will need new trains, as I put in my original post suggesting GWR get full-length, level-boarding, 125 mph EMUs for Cardiff, Swansea, Oxford and Bristol services to replace the lost 5-car 80x. This way, bimodes are cascaded from routes that should (and hopefully will) be electrified to routes that need bimode capability.

Going back to the point of catering, it would be easy to provide hot, restaurant quality meals onboard.

Assuming app based ordering is used, this could involve staff in a small onboard kitchen preparing meals by the heating of pre prepared products, which would be loaded on to a trolley and served, as is done on airlines.

A secondary option would be off train food preparation, with hot meals loaded onto trains at stations (this requires level boarding)

This seems overly complex tbh

However, staff load is reduced and productivity increased if this food heating is done at a fixed site, instead of at the far end of the train, and there could be a fixed point for food pickup. Maybe there could also be a coffee vending machine. Therefore a micro buffet between first and standard and no actual kitchen is likely the most effective way of organising catering.

Agreed. Fit a good quality coffee machine for those who enjoy coffee, and a microwave to sell hot food that is nice microwaved.

125mph flirts are probably the best option, with vestibule doors in the middle of each coach, followed by 7 or 9 car 80x or even more 897, if they are substantially cheaper.

I'm sure other manufacturers would be happy to offer their solution. If new trains are ordered, level-boarding should be an absolute requirement though.

 

[Zomboid]

If the Lincoln services can take 9-car 80x,

The platforms are around 150m long, so there's no hope of that

 

[Trainbike46]

The platforms are around 150m long, so there's no hope of that

That is unfortunate.

Is there any scope for platform extensions?

 

[Zomboid]

Not without a huge rebuild that'll reduce the number of platforms/ tracks.

 

[Trainbike46]

Not without a huge rebuild that'll reduce the number of platforms/ tracks.

Thank you, as you may have guessed I'm not familiar with Lincoln! Every 5-car 80x I've seen on LNER has been coupled to another to form a 10-car so I (mistakenly) thought they weren't strictly necessary.

The only option that would leave is to keep at least enough 5-car 80x with LNER for the Lincoln service. This could still allow enough units for cascading to XC if the 5-car 801 (EMUs) could be turned into bimodes by adding extra engines, or by adding sufficient batteries to them that the 801s could cover the Lincoln service. But then we're into big changes to the Agility contract, which makes it less likely.

 

[Brubulus]

This seems overly complex tbh

Agreed. Fit a good quality coffee machine for those who enjoy coffee, and a microwave to sell hot food that is nice microwaved.

I have had meals delivered to my train by local restaurants abroad, this is just a proposal for the railway to work with a food delivery company to normalise the delivery of substantial quantities of hot food to stopping trains, with catering staff either delivering the food to customers, or customers picking up from a micro buffet.

If on train heating of food was to be preferred, the efficient method of delivery is to heat food in bulk, (ordered and paid in advance) as is done for airline meals then either distribute with a trolley, or keep at micro buffet for pickup. Therefore all that is needed at a micro buffet is a bulk convection oven for food heating, and stocks of cold snacks.

If people know they can get high quality food on trains reliably and consistently, they will use the catering service and it is essential for the 3+ hour trips often taken on XC, even though most passengers travel for shorter distances.

 

[Zomboid]

The only option that would leave is to keep at least enough 5-car 80x with LNER for the Lincoln service

Or just can it. Not that I'm advocating that, but a small batch of 5 cars solely to serve one destination a handful of times per day is unlikely to fly.

 

[Harpo]

Or just can it. Not that I'm advocating that, but a small batch of 5 cars solely to serve one destination a handful of times per day is unlikely to fly.

Isn’t that open access described in a single sentence?

 

[Zomboid]

Isn’t that open access described in a single sentence?

I suppose it is. But in this context there's a question of whether LNER would retain a handful of short trains as part of a fleet of 9/10 car units if their other 5 cars went to XC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose it is. But in this context there's a question of whether LNER would retain a handful of short trains as part of a fleet of 9/10 car units if their other 5 cars went to XC.

I'd be more inclined to say that if it doesn't justify a full length train LNER shouldn't be serving it at all, rather it should be a quality hourly connection. The ECML these days is starting to look like Castlefield with hourly trains from everywhere to everywhere (albeit one of the everywheres near enough always being London). The WCML is much simpler with a simple hourly clockface pattern and really does benefit from that.

 

[Zomboid]

I'd be more inclined to say that if it doesn't justify a full length train LNER shouldn't be serving it at all, rather it should be a quality hourly connection. The ECML these days is starting to look like Castlefield with hourly trains from everywhere to everywhere (albeit one of the everywheres near enough always being London). The WCML is much simpler with a simple hourly clockface pattern and really does benefit from that.

Lincoln may well be able to justify a full length train (probably not, but perhaps), but without colossal expenditure the station can't handle it. I wonder if it's only really getting a service to get in before GC or someone else has a go, but that's another issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FYI I've created a specific thread about simplifying the ECML pattern here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ecml-keep-it-simple.287656/

 

[Mark J]

you don't really make much money selling tea, and trolley coffee is invariably rubbish because a full sized espresso machine doesn't fit on a trolley, and the alternatives tend to produce bad coffee. In Switzerland I have seen a Nespresso machine on a trolley which you could certainly do, but in the UK people don't want "short" coffees like that, they want a half pint (or in some cases even a pint) of latte or similar. The coffee bags and filter cups you sometimes see are OK, but they're just filter coffee, and even at the Bucks (when they bother to put it on) it's the cheapest drink, and only a quid at Pret.

GWR do the Taylor of Harrogate Coffee Bags.

To be honest they produce quite a decent cup of coffee. Certainly better than Nescafe, or Kenco instant coffee cups.

It is also not practical to have an espresso machine on a train. It is too time consuming preparing a cup of coffee in this way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is also not practical to have an espresso machine on a train. It is too time consuming preparing a cup of coffee in this way.

Avanti West Coast and LNER would disagree, as both have bean to cup machines.

 

[danielnez1]

Avanti West Coast and LNER would disagree, as both have bean to cup machines.

A bean to cup machines are common these days too, plus are capable of making a variety of nice coffees (depending on their upkeep and beans used). LNER can offer a range of hot and cold food and drinks from their small buffets on their 800s for Standard Class passengers plus the trolley that cap drop off orders too. IMHO that should be the minimum catering standard for standard class, for any IC service.