Can GBR bring XC back up to INTERCITY standard?

[Brubulus]

While I agree that the CAF order should be lengthened to 12 coaches, I disagree regarding taking the LNER 5 car 800s, since to do so would make it impossible to run the Lincoln service.

Newbuild stock is the best answer for XC, though. Pick up set down flags are all but useless on XC, the only thing that could be done is to have journey planners not show XC on certain flows such as Birmingham-Wolverhampton, but for there to be no enforcement of this since there would be no actual prohibition, just a capacity management trick, much like fake compulsory reservations.

Regarding onboard service, I don't really care if there is an onboard buffet counter or not. However I do believe that generally, on XC services, sone should be able to have a hot meal of decent quality and a proper coffee (could be provided by batteries in a trolley). Don't really care where it's from or how it's made. Off train preparation really appeals to me with a "dark kitchen" in stations and on-app ordering for hot meals to be loaded on to trains. Or kitchens could reheat hot meals that could be sold by a trolley service, much like airlines but with app based ordering to minimise cost. Neither of these require a buffet counter. Co branding food and drink could be a good way to boost revenue from the catering operation to help it contribute to the finances of XC.

Another option for more regional services might be vending machines such as Roboburger and other options, which can provide hot food without staffing cost.

Going back to the service pattern, it is generally fine except 2tph from Birmingham to Leeds is vitally needed, being a link between the second and fourth largest cities in the country.

My preferred solution for XC would be bi mode 125mph class 745s, with level boarding and large doors that better enable XCs dual role. 80x are good intercity units, but they tend to have longer dwell times than needed on XC.

 

[The Planner]

My preferred solution for XC would be bi mode 125mph class 745s, with level boarding and large doors that better enable XCs dual role. 80x are good intercity units, but they tend to have longer dwell times than needed on XC.

You'll be lucky to find a sub 90 second dwell on the Voyager routes unless its a bodge, most are 2 minutes so an 800 would be fine.

 

[A S Leib]

Would an intercity-standard CrossCountry franchise have been needed in the long term if both northern legs of HS2 had still been under construction?

Some XC stations wouldn't have got HS2 routes – Coventry, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent, Macclesfield (to Birmingham), Tamworth, Burton-on-Trent – and others like York would have had less frequent HS2 services than with XC in 2019, albeit with higher capacities. It also wouldn't have helped direct services from the Bournemouth and Plymouth legs as much, but for those willing to change, routes like Bristol to York would have been an hour quicker via Old Oak Common.

I know that Birmingham to Bournemouth or Plymouth is still comparable in length to journeys like London to Newcastle, and that improvements to CrossCountry might have been possible long before HS2 had reached Manchester and the East Midlands or Yorkshire, making it desirable as a medium-term solution.

 

[Harpo]

My preferred solution for XC would be bi mode 125mph class 745s, with level boarding and large doors that better enable XCs dual role. 80x are good intercity units, but they tend to have longer dwell times than needed on XC.

My thoughts on 745s are still that they are superb regional trains as they wouldn’t be acceptable on the ECML/WCML, they are not InterCity sets.

XC dwell issues are a function of their short forming/overcrowding and stopping patterns more akin to a regional service.

XC will remain a beggars muddle while the fudge around its role on the railway network continues.

 

[Trainbike46]

While I agree that the CAF order should be lengthened to 12 coaches, I disagree regarding taking the LNER 5 car 800s, since to do so would make it impossible to run the Lincoln service.

Lincoln can't take a 9-car 80x?

Newbuild stock is the best answer for XC, though. Pick up set down flags are all but useless on XC, the only thing that could be done is to have journey planners not show XC on certain flows such as Birmingham-Wolverhampton, but for there to be no enforcement of this since there would be no actual prohibition, just a capacity management trick, much like fake compulsory reservations.

My preferred solution for XC would be bi mode 125mph class 745s, with level boarding and large doors that better enable XCs dual role. 80x are good intercity units, but they tend to have longer dwell times than needed on XC.

a fleet of proper-length 125mph bimode FLIRTS would be really good. The reason I proposed reusing existing 80x is that it would enable the removal of 5-car units from other IC operations. For the most part, buying 5-car IC units was a mistake, but in my view they'd be less problematic on XC, because they're still a massive capacity upgrade:

- 4-car 221: 186 seats
- 5-car 221: 246 seats
- 5-car 80x: 302/326 seats (LNER/GWR)

 

[Zomboid]

Would an intercity-standard CrossCountry franchise have been needed in the long term if both northern legs of HS2 had still been under construction

HS2 would have been great at linking large cities in the midlands and north of England to London and Birmingham, which is a small proportion of what XC does.

So yes, XC would still have been required, if not in exactly the its current form.

 

[Trainbike46]

My thoughts on 745s are still that they are superb regional trains as they wouldn’t be acceptable on the ECML/WCML, they are not InterCity sets.

Why not? Obviously a 125 mph FLIRT for XC (or other IC routes) would get a different interior, but the 745 interior is very nice and IC like already in my view.

 

[Falcon1200]

Adding extra capacity to the other services is GBR's problem, and outside the scope of this thread

I disagree; Any suggestion of reducing service should include ways to maintain capacity.

 

[Zomboid]

thoughts on 745s are still that they are superb regional trains as they wouldn’t be acceptable on the ECML/WCML, they are not InterCity sets

Why not? I don't know how they'd behave at 125, but Stadler say that Flirts can reach that speed.

Everything else is interior fit out, isn't it?

 

[Harpo]

Why not? I don't know how they'd behave at 125, but Stadler say that Flirts can reach that speed.

Everything else is interior fit out, isn't it?

1/3, 2/3 doors with seats in close proximity that expose passengers to icy blasts of cold air at stations are the stuff of suburban trains, not of quality long distance rolling stock.

 

[Trainbike46]

1/3, 2/3 doors with seats in close proximity that expose passengers to icy blasts of cold air at stations are the stuff of suburban trains, not of quality long distance rolling stock.

The IC 745 have vestibule doors, so that shouldn't really be an issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with this. For all of XC’s faults it’s route selection and frequencies is an incredible attribute that few other comparable countries in Europe have an equivalent of.

Apart from, say, the entire DB IC and ICE operation?

 

[irish_rail]

In a world of cost cutting etc, the 80x is the only rationale choice going forward for XC, as traincrew and engineering knowledge is widespread throughout the UK now. In many ways, the 80x has become the equivalent of the TGV (albeit far slower!). Muddying the waters with a 745 type train for every region of the UK to have to learn and maintain at night isn't going to help with Labour's cost cutting mission.

 

[Zomboid]

The IC 745 have vestibule doors, so that shouldn't really be an issue.

They also only have one door per carriage, so they can't be at 1/3 and 2/3 spacing.

I don't see anything about a 745 which suggests that it would be inherently unsuitable for proper Intercity operations, assuming London to Norwich doesn't count as such a thing.

 

[Harpo]

I don't see anything about a 745 which suggests that it would be inherently unsuitable for proper Intercity operations, assuming London to Norwich doesn't count as such a thing.

Having had a hand in things ‘InterCity’ in the past I strongly believe that Liverpool St to Norwich ought to be InterCity, as should XC but both are blighted by vehicles that would not have passed muster in the Prideaux days of striving for a high quality IC product.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They also only have one door per carriage, so they can't be at 1/3 and 2/3 spacing.

I don't see anything about a 745 which suggests that it would be inherently unsuitable for proper Intercity operations, assuming London to Norwich doesn't count as such a thing.

I do get the draughts issue, but if you have vestibule doors that doesn't occur with doors in the middle any more than at the ends, and it creates smaller, more private mini saloons rather than one big one which means you can more easily get away from e.g. an errant mobile phone user. The only downside is the need to go through more doors when passing through the train, but most people don't pass through the train, they get on at one door and sit somewhere near it.

To be honest I'd say a train with 24m vehicles, end gangways and doors at quarters/thirds would be a very good fit for XC. A faster, ideally bimode Class 185 (albeit with gangways and more vehicles) would be a really good fit to be honest, and it was designed for similar types of route with both long distance and short distance demand. It also creates a few natural spaces for things like a small buffet (as per the former Midland 170s) in the short inner vestibule section. I'll decide for definite when I get my first go on Wednesday (hopefully!) but I think a bimode version of the 730/2 but with proper first class rather than sham 2+2 would be very close to what they need. 5 car would be fine if they were gangwayed.

OK, 125mph gangwayed stock does not yet exist, but what proportion of XC requires 125mph running? Is it just north of York? That doesn't mean more suitable stock couldn't be used on parts of the network other than that.

 

[Zomboid]

, 125mph gangwayed stock does not yet exist, but what proportion of XC requires 125mph running? Is it just north of York? That doesn't mean more suitable stock couldn't be used on parts of the network other than that.

Birmingham - Derby as well - I'd say that axis did warrant 125mph.
Also Reading - Didcot and Wolverhampton - Stafford, I believe, but 110 is probably sufficient on that route, I'd guess.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Birmingham - Derby as well - I'd say that axis did warrant 125mph.

I suppose that does give a neat split between the NE-SW axis which needs 125mph and the rest of it which doesn't. 5 car 110mph bimodes would be good for XC-lite too, so you'd still have 2 fleets, just the split between them would be different.

Also Reading - Didcot and Wolverhampton - Stafford, I believe, but 110 is probably sufficient on that route, I'd guess.

There are certainly a lot of 110mph EMUs knocking around the fast lines of both of those. Yesterday I took the 1730 Swindon-Paddington, a 4 car EMU with maybe half the seats taken by Paddington*, and we shot past a Voyager about half way to Reading

* Not sure what the point of these is really, pleasant though it was as there was about one person per coach between Swindon and Didcot and it only got even vaguely busy-ish at Reading. I've used one of them before and it was similarly empty.

 

[Zomboid]

suppose that does give a neat split between the NE-SW axis which needs 125mph and the rest of it which doesn't. 5 car 110mph bimodes would be good for XC-lite too, so you'd still have 2 fleets, just the split between them would be different

I've said a couple of times now that a suitably powered 110mph 444 type unit would be ideal for the Bournemouth - Manchester route, and it may well suit the Stanstead - Birmingham & Nottingham - Cardiff routes with enough battery/ diesel capacity.

Newcastle - Bristol (plus extensions) and Newcastle - Reading would need the 125mph stock.

 

[DarloRich]

I hope GBR bring XC back up to INTERCITY standard

But what does that mean or look like in the 21st century ?

Maybe a proper catering offer brought back on the long distance routes, along with enough seats for all!

On train catering is finished. Just go to Greggs!

 

[Zomboid]

But what does that mean or look like in the 21st century ?

Depends who you ask, doesn't it? For a lot of people who have become accustomed to easyJet etc, it probably looks a lot like that/ Lumo.

 

[Killingworth]

Standardisation on railways has been a curse from very early days. By trying to produce the ideal rolling stock for all parts of the national network at random times and under constantly changing structures we end up with multiple classes of trains that can't easily work together. Cascading becomes challenging over a service life of 40 or more years.

Producing bi-mode 125mph capable trains that can operate almost anywhere, in walk though units no shorter than 5 car, would seem sensible - today. But we already have such trains and they may not be easily compatible with each other when cascading is considered. At that point 6 or 7 car might be more suitable.

TPE's 5 car Nova 1 and 2 units may be too short for some workings. Their 3 car 185s certainly are, but doubling up to 6 is usually overkill. 5 would be fine, oh dear what happened to their 125mph capable Nova 3s? Big cascading issue there - and that was only over 5 years!

But what does that mean or look like in the 21st century ? On train catering is finished. Just go to Greggs!

I'm sure Greggs would consider an on train franchising deal.

 

[Trainbike46]

They also only have one door per carriage, so they can't be at 1/3 and 2/3 spacing.

I don't see anything about a 745 which suggests that it would be inherently unsuitable for proper Intercity operations, assuming London to Norwich doesn't count as such a thing.

The 745s have 1 door per car, at approximately 1/3 of the length of the car.

 

[A S Leib]

But what does that mean or look like in the 21st century ?

Working WiFi and charging points on all routes would be a start, but there's plenty of non-IC routes which manage both, especially the latter, and Eurostar frequently doesn't have the former.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Working WiFi and charging points on all routes would be a start, but there's plenty of non-IC routes which manage both, especially the latter, and Eurostar frequently doesn't have the former.

On board WiFi absolutely should not be a priority in 2025.

The investment needs to continue in trackside infrastructure to deliver better mobile communications, which is happening already.

This has the advantage of benefiting all trains and passengers, as well as local communities, especially rural ones. Network Rail also do well out of leasing and access agreements with the mobile networks to install their kit on NR infrastructure.

Power sockets, for the time being, I'd potentially agree with, but with newer phones and devices now coming out with silicone carbon batteries, which essentially give around 20% additional capacity for the same size as a more traditional one, I suspect they'll eventually become less important and fairly dated.

I would suggest fast wireless charging should be installed instead, with the added benefit of no need to carry cables. Avanti have these on tables, but they're not particularly powerful or fast, i.e. cheap from China.

 

[The exile]

You'll be lucky to find a sub 90 second dwell on the Voyager routes unless its a bodge, most are 2 minutes so an 800 would be fine.

And “dwell times that are longer than needed” is the “glass half empty” way of saying “dwell times that help service recovery from minor delays before they snowball into major ones”

 

[irish_rail]

On train catering is finished. Just go to Greggs!

Don't forget in the southwest there are virtually no retail outlets at the stations (even the bigger ones) and most of the stations are out of the city centres so not close to decent food places. Plymouth a good example, just a cafe local and a Whsmith, not great for a large ish city. Plenty of smaller stations up north have greater provision than that!! Therefore it's vital that a decent standard of catering is available on intercity trains, and that goes for GWR as well!!!

 

[DarloRich]

Therefore it's vital that a decent standard of catering is available on intercity trains, and that goes for GWR as well!!!

you can buy sandwiches and rinks at WHSmith

 

[Zomboid]

A station like Plymouth really ought to be able to support a coffee chain. If it can't then somebody is doing something wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A station like Plymouth really ought to be able to support a coffee chain. If it can't then somebody is doing something wrong.

I'm certain I bought a coffee at Plymouth station before, though I forget what chain it was. If it's closed, I'm sure another one will take its place in due course.

The ones I've found more of an issue are rural or small-town stations - the Far North Line might actually sustain a trolley more effectively than WMT London-Birmingham services, for example.

Edit: Oh, Plymouth is "Cafe Local"? To be honest their coffee is better than the Bucks and cheaper too. Anyone can buy a bean to cup machine, it's not hard to do good coffee these days as long as you bother to clean it properly.