Lockerbie?

reb0118 · 22 Aug 2011

1) Is a Lockerbie - Glasgow ticket valid via Edinburgh?

2) Is a Lockerbie - Edinburgh ticket valid to travel to Glasgow via Haymarket?

3) Is a Lockerbie - Edinburgh ticket valid via Glasgow?

RailUK Forums

sonic2009 · 22 Aug 2011

Lockerbie's Routeing Point is Carstairs Permitted Routes are via MAP FK

Question 1. No, as there is no route shown on the map between Carstairs and Edinburgh
Question 2. No

Map FK

Lockerbie - Edinburgh permitted routes are via Map CG

Question 3. NO, as no other routes available without doubling back which is not allowed.

Map CG

I will stand corrected, but IMO i cannot see any other routes, unless an easement permits like

Journeys via Carlisle and Carstairs may double back from Motherwell. This
easement applies in both directions, but IMO that would only allow Lockerbie - Carstairs - Motherwell - Carstairs - Edinburgh.

DaveNewcastle · 22 Aug 2011

I think I asked similar questions a couple of years ago and recall that the answer was 'NO'.
However, it is a fact that if you attempt to make a booking for travel from Lockerbie to Edinburgh or Glasgow (I use the East Coast website) then it WILL sell you those tickets for the following routes:-

Lockerbie to Edinburgh (most services are via Carlisle, but includes some via GLC & GQS)
These are Anytime tickets at £15:20 irrespective of route taken.

Lockerbie to Glasgow (mostly services are direct, but also many via Carlisle and also some via Haymarket)
These are Anytime tickets at £12:80 irrespective of route taken.

sonic2009 · 22 Aug 2011

going via Carlisle fails the Fare Check, if i'm mistaken.

rosscbrown · 22 Aug 2011

I stay in Lockerbie and travel to Edinburgh all the time. While I can't say what is allowed as per the routing guides, I can tell you want I consitantly get away with on the ground

Lockerbie to Edinburgh, direct - fine.
Loc to Edi via Carlisle - this is a hard no. However I've found asking the Train Manager before boarding I get the OK to do this often from Edinburgh.
Loc to Edin via Glasgow Queen St - fine. Never been questioned on the trains either way. Been told I was on the wrong train a few times when traveling out of Lockerbie but never asked to take a new ticket.

I asked a while ago about Loc to Edin via Glasgow and was told it was a valid route. I'll have a look...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Here's the thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=22439

scotsman · 22 Aug 2011

Specifically asked if Lockerbie - Edinburgh was valid via Glasgow at the ticket office in Lockerbie. I was told so. None of the Conductors I encountered disagreeed.

CompactDstrxion · 22 Aug 2011

I agree, Lockerbie to Glasgow/Edinburgh is only valid on the direct routes.

DaveNewcastle · 22 Aug 2011

CompactDstrxion said:
Lockerbie to Glasgow/Edinburgh is only valid on the direct routes.

I am happy to accept that analysis.
But for the reasons I mentioned above (primarily that the tickets are offered for sale on specific services via Carlisle or (to Edin.) via Glasgow and (to Glasgoe) via Edin., with a printed itinery), then can a passenger have any justification for fear of challenge if travelling by any of those offered services?
And if so, on what grounds can a ticket issed for travel on a defined service be refused?

OwlMan · 22 Aug 2011

There is a negative easement

700159 Customers travelling from Carstairs to Haymarket or Edinburgh in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted' may not travel via
Motherwell. This easement applies in both directions.

So which ways can they travel? A Route Direct ticket is cheaper so surely the Carstairs - Edinburgh route can not be the only one?

Peter

All Line Rover · 22 Aug 2011

DaveNewcastle said:
I am happy to accept that analysis.
But for the reasons I mentioned above (primarily that the tickets are offered for sale on specific services via Carlisle or (to Edin.) via Glasgow and (to Glasgoe) via Edin., with a printed itinery), then can a passenger have any justification for fear of challenge if travelling by any of those offered services?
And if so, on what grounds can a ticket issed for travel on a defined service be refused?

Simply put, they can't be refused. However, having tried Lockerbie to Glasgow via Haymarket, WebTIS does route via Haymarket but refuses to issue reservations, so I wouldn't be too confident about using the ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would also point out that WebTIS has been acting slightly "weird" lately. It has been routeing many of my normal journeys via stations not permitted in the Routeing Guide.

DaveNewcastle · 22 Aug 2011

collybs said:
There is a negative easement

700159 Customers travelling from Carstairs to Haymarket or Edinburgh in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted' may not travel via
Motherwell. This easement applies in both directions.

Click to expand...

So which ways can they travel? A Route Direct ticket is cheaper so surely the Carstairs - Edinburgh route can not be the only one?

via Carlisle?

But I'm reluctant to import a Negative Easement applying to travel to/from Carstairs to a comparable journey to/from Lockerbie.

rosscbrown said:
I stay in Lockerbie and travel to Edinburgh all the time. While I can't say what is allowed as per the routing guides, I can tell you want I consitantly get away with on the ground

I must say that is reassuring; but I'm sorry to say that it doesn't leave me with much more clarity of what is technically permitted (I wish it did!).
These tickets have been offered for regular travel beween Lockerbie and both Edin and Glasgow thoughout the day. Whether many people travel those routes each day or not I don't know, but it beggars belief that passengers are being refused travel and yet the TOCs are still selling the tickets.

All Line Rover said:
I would also point out that WebTIS has been acting slightly "weird" lately. It has been routeing many of my normal journeys via stations not permitted in the Routeing Guide.

These journeys to/from Lockerbie on 10 or more services a day have been offered for sale from the TOC's Ticketing services for many years now. Thay are not all direct.

All Line Rover · 23 Aug 2011

DaveNewcastle said:
These journeys to/from Lockerbie on 10 or more services a day have been offered for sale from the TOC's Ticketing services for many years now. Thay are not all direct.

If these routes appear permanently in the journey planners, I suppose it can only be a good thing.

yorkie · 23 Aug 2011

Looks like the routeing may have been changed.

In theory the change has been approved by both DfT and Passenger Focus would have been given the chance to object. It would be 'interesting' to see if this changed has been approved. If it has not, then I have concerns that the legal obligations are being met, with respect to Routeing Guide changes. Perhaps someone would like to chase this one up...

reb0118 · 23 Aug 2011

The background to this query was that I came across two pax travelling together on my Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street service. One had a Lockerbie to Glasgow Cen/Qst ticket and the other a Lockerbie to Edinburgh ticket. Both tickets had been sold on-board the TPE train and had been issued consecutively, one of the pax also held a timetable enquiry, again issued on board the TPE train.

Whilst carrying out my ticket checks I was informed by these passengers that they were both travelling to Glasgow but that one had been issued with an Edinburgh ticket in error. They also asked that because the Edinburgh ticket had in fact cost more than the Glasgow fare would they both be allowed to travel.

I informed them that in my belief neither ticket was valid and at that time they then produced the timetable enquiry obtained on the TPE train and stated that the TPE guard had informed them that travelling via Edinburgh (Haymarket) was ok. I restated my original view but in this case allowed them to travel because they were acting in accordance with the instructions of an authorised employee - however I asked them to enquire at the booking office at Glasgow to confirm the valid routes for their future journeys.

yorkie · 23 Aug 2011

Interesting. I believe the TPE guard acted correctly in that it probably is a valid itinerary by many journey planners, probably (though perhaps kwvr45 can confirm?) including the one they use. It certainly used to be a valid route and ATOC are not legally allowed to change that without permission from the DfT. We have found that unfortunately the law has been broken by ATOC/DfT on occasions, though we were reassured that they were now complying with the law. I am not convinced that they are. If anyone is interested in pursuing this matter with ATOC, the DfT and perhaps their MP, feel free to contact me.

reb0118 · 24 Aug 2011

yorkie said:
Interesting. I believe the TPE guard acted correctly in that it probably is a valid itinerary by many journey planners, probably (though perhaps kwvr45 can confirm?) including the one they use. It certainly used to be a valid route and ATOC are not legally allowed to change that without permission from the DfT. We have found that unfortunately the law has been broken by ATOC/DfT on occasions, though we were reassured that they were now complying with the law. I am not convinced that they are. If anyone is interested in pursuing this matter with ATOC, the DfT and perhaps their MP, feel free to contact me.

I checked the itinerary on my own Avantix and it confirmed the TPE one - which is not surprising as I think we use the same operating systems - depart Lockerbie 0955 change at Haymarket, depart there 1104 & arrive Glasgow QS 1150.

However when checking at the Booking Office this itinerary was found to be not valid. Confusing for staff & passengers alike!

yorkie · 24 Aug 2011

Thanks for the update. Yes, and the blame is partly ATOC and partly the Government/DfT for allowing ATOC to effectively act as a regulator and fail to ensure ATOC are complying with the law when it comes to updating the Routeing Guide.

Lockerbie?

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