Northern trial £80 fixed penalty for people caught without ticket for 2nd time.

LexyBoy · 7 Nov 2012

I agree with Flamingo on the enforcement issues - I have never once seen anyone be issued with a PF on FGW; even on DOO services in PF areas I've only seen passengers issued normal tickets.

I'd favour scrapping the PF system and introducing a nationwide £10-20 supplement to be paid on top of tickets bought on-board (except where no facilities exist when boarding of course). No paperwork, no getting-away-from-it-unless-there's-an-RPI, easy to understand...

If Northern wanted to introduce a back-door PF system they could remove restrictions on their Off Peak tickets and treble the price of Anytime tickets, then enforce NRCoC Condition 2.

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RPI · 7 Nov 2012

LexyBoy said:
I agree with Flamingo on the enforcement issues - I have never once seen anyone be issued with a PF on FGW; even on DOO services in PF areas I've only seen passengers issued normal tickets.

I'd favour scrapping the PF system and introducing a nationwide £10-20 supplement to be paid on top of tickets bought on-board (except where no facilities exist when boarding of course). No paperwork, no getting-away-from-it-unless-there's-an-RPI, easy to understand...

Firstly, plenty of PF's get issued on FGW, unless the empty book I hand in every couple of weeks is a figment of my imagination, secondly, £10-£20 supplement? And how does one appeal against such "Supplement" when for example they say that the TVM was correct change only or excessive queues? the kind of situation where it may be deemed appropriate to issue the PFN up front as they may be the only person who doesn't have a ticket but the appeals service can make a judgment later on when looking at the full facts available to them. I think a PF scheme is, believe it or not, the most passenger friendly way of dealing with simple "no ticket" scenario's as they have that right to appeal by a (semi) independent body! I agree though that £20.00 isnt enough though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What I will add to that though is that all TOC's should have the same system to save confusion, although PF's in general should be kept to commuter routes rather than Intercity routes.

hairyhandedfool · 7 Nov 2012

michael769 said:
This is the crux of my concern. With the best will in the world everyone makes mistakes - including RPIs - and the passengers who fall foul of those mistakes need some protection.....

And on the first occasion you make a 'genuine mistake' of walking past usable ticket issuing facilities you get only a warning, on the second occasion you make a 'genuine mistake' of walking past usable ticket issuing facilities you get the £80 notice.

Compare this to a Penalty fare where you get a Penalty Fare of £20 or twice the single fare for your first 'genuine mistake' and a Penalty Fare of £20 or twice the single fare for your second 'genuine mistake'.

And compare it to the current status, where a first 'genuine mistake' could land you in court and/or leave you with a fine/settlement of £100+ and a second 'genuine mistake' could land you in court and leave you with a fine of £100+.

Legal or not I think it would be preferable to the travelling public who make multiple 'genuine mistakes'.

LexyBoy · 7 Nov 2012

RPI said:
Firstly, plenty of PF's get issued on FGW, unless the empty book I hand in every couple of weeks is a figment of my imagination

I'm not disputing that, just saying that in a lot of cases they don't (because guards can't issue PFs, nor would they be able to with the amount of work it involves).

RPI said:
secondly, £10-£20 supplement? And how does one appeal against such "Supplement" when for example they say that the TVM was correct change only or excessive queues?

It would be the same as currently happens when passengers are charged Anytime fares in such circumstances. If needed, an independent body could be set up for all ticketing appeals.

I understand your points (and I'm not saying that my proposal is wonderfully thought out or the best solution!) but the way Penalty Fares are implemented seems to me, as an interested user of the railway, to be a bit of a hotchpotch with a high chance of avoiding getting a PF. To be effective a system needs to be consistent rather than just having big headline fines.

RPI said:
What I will add to that though is that all TOC's should have the same system to save confusion, although PF's in general should be kept to commuter routes rather than Intercity routes.

Agreed! (although there's some overlap of commuter & Intercity with FGW). PF schemes are intended for frequent stop, high capacity commuter routes, according to the DfT's own guidelines.

pemma · 7 Nov 2012

yorkie said:
Northern would prosecute, as we know they do because of the threads here from people who are threatened with prosecution!

They do but by the time legal fees are deducted from the amount the court orders the defendant to pay is it still more than £80?

A £80 fine could be a win-win situation for Northern instead of going to the courts first because:
1. They'd usually receive the money faster.
2. No legal fees.
3. No cases which get thrown out of court (which has happened before when a judge ruled against Northern.)

island · 7 Nov 2012

kwvr45 said:
I suppose, if it was worded correctly then it could be the same as Manchester Metrolink's "Standard Fare", which is not a penalty fare, just a flat fare you pay if you don't have a ticket. I don't know how a penalty fares scheme applies to Metrolink, but if Northern somehow declared a "standard fare" on certain routes, then could this get round the PF regulations?

Possibly not, in the case of regulated fares.

There are a few flows with SVRs which are effectively unrestricted, and much more expensive SORs which essentially act as a penalty for buying on board.

John @ home · 7 Nov 2012

island said:
There are a few flows with SVRs which are effectively unrestricted

Set by Northern? My understanding was that all Northern's regulated SVRs became SORs at the time of Fares Simplification.

tbtc · 7 Nov 2012

Northern are in a tricky position

Plenty of their stations only see one train an hour, so staffing them all is unrealistic (compared to say Merseyrail who have at least four trains an hour at most stations)
Guards are more concerned with Train Safety and operating the doors than revenue collection
Only a few stations served by Northern have "gates"

So they need to do something to tackle fare evasion. The fact that so many people seem to have been caught in recent weeks suggests that this has been a big problem for some time (but ignored).

I think that I could give people the benefit of doubt once, but a second time, maybe not. Can see why they want to introduce this.

kwvr45 said:
I suppose, if it was worded correctly then it could be the same as Manchester Metrolink's "Standard Fare", which is not a penalty fare, just a flat fare you pay if you don't have a ticket. I don't know how a penalty fares scheme applies to Metrolink, but if Northern somehow declared a "standard fare" on certain routes, then could this get round the PF regulations?

We have (had?) a similar thing on First buses in Sheffield - the standard fare was £35 (so if you were caught on a bus without a valid ticket for the journey then you had to pay this)

pemma · 7 Nov 2012

tbtc said:
Plenty of their stations only see one train an hour, so staffing them all is unrealistic (compared to say Merseyrail who have at least four trains an hour at most stations)

Guards are more concerned with Train Safety and operating the doors than revenue collection

Only a few stations served by Northern have "gates"

Northern do seem to be acting on these on the western side. If we take my local line (the Mid-Cheshire line.)

Northwich (which has a ticket office that closes early afternoon) has had a TVM installed, as have Greenbank (which is the highest used unstaffed station on the line) and Knutsford (which has too many passengers on busy trains for one ticket clerk to be able to deal with.)

The weekday ticket office hours at Northwich and Hale have been realigned to better meet demand. (Unfortunately not the case with Sunday at Knutsford though.)

There are scheduled to be 2 x additional on board ticket inspectors in the morning and evening peaks between Northwich and Altrincham (subject to guard availability.)

G4S are now a regular site at Knutsford and Northwich, not just an occasional site and they remain there for longer than previously.

Platform 11 at Piccadilly (where most services terminate) is now barriered for most of the day - although passengers transferring to services departing from platforms 13/14 are no longer asked for tickets as a result of the relocation.

The automatic barriers at Chester are also in operation for longer hours (but that's an ATW decision.)

Stigy · 7 Nov 2012

jcollins said:
They do but by the time legal fees are deducted from the amount the court orders the defendant to pay is it still more than £80?

A £80 fine could be a win-win situation for Northern instead of going to the courts first because:
1. They'd usually receive the money faster.
2. No legal fees.
3. No cases which get thrown out of court (which has happened before when a judge ruled against Northern.)

Legal fees would be paid by the losing party....Hopefully the defendant!

They won't and cant make money from court, but then they won't from these penalties either, as their costs will be around £100 in any case when taking in to account staff costs etc.

RPI · 7 Nov 2012

LexyBoy said:
It would be the same as currently happens when passengers are charged Anytime fares in such circumstances. If needed, an independent body could be set up for all ticketing appeals.

So what you propose is....... a PF scheme!

Agreed! (although there's some overlap of commuter & Intercity with FGW). PF schemes are intended for frequent stop, high capacity commuter routes, according to the DfT's own guidelines.

Yes this is a bit of a grey area as the Intercity services double up as both commuter and local services however, the 3 FGW PF areas are operated independently of each other to prevent massive PF's being issued to people travelling long distance.

MikeWh · 7 Nov 2012

jcollins said:
Is that £80 figure the highest fixed penalty issued by a TOC (apart from the ones which involve double the single fare)?

I don't think this has been answered, but no. TfL penalty fares are all £80 (reduced to £40 if paid promptly) and they apply on London Overground as well.

eastdyke · 8 Nov 2012

MikeWh said:
I don't think this has been answered, but no. TfL penalty fares are all £80 (reduced to £40 if paid promptly) and they apply on London Overground as well.

So is London Overground a TOC? (my understanding is yes)

If yes than how can LO make an £80 Penalty Fare (I am not saying that this is unreasonable!) when the rest of the Industry is stuck on £20 (or Fare x 2) ?
Surely if LO is a TOC then they are bound to observe both the Penalty Fare Rules and the Penalty Fare Regulations?

I still think that NR are waving 2 fingers.

(But if the PF were to be £80 then perhaps NR would find a proper PF Scheme to be sufficiently attractive?)

causton · 8 Nov 2012

eastdyke said:
So is London Overground a TOC? (my understanding is yes)

If yes than how can LO make an £80 Penalty Fare (I am not saying that this is unreasonable!) when the rest of the Industry is stuck on £20 (or Fare x 2) ?
Surely if LO is a TOC then they are bound to observe both the Penalty Fare Rules and the Penalty Fare Regulations?

Apparently according to the TfL Byelaws (this definition was changed in 2011 with approval of the Secretary of State) the definition of railway is:

"railway" means:
(a) the railways and railway premises of Transport for London and any of its subsidiaries including any train, other vehicle, station, depot, track and any associated equipment; and
(b) any train, or other vehicle and any associated equipment which is for the time being used by a person or body for the purposes of providing railway services under an agreement with Transport for London or any of its subsidiaries;

Assuming PFs are issued under TfL byelaws, that would explain it...!

pemma · 8 Nov 2012

Stigy said:
Legal fees would be paid by the losing party....Hopefully the defendant!

Exactly.

If the court orders someone to pay a total of £100 and the legal fees are deducted from that, what goes to Northern is probably a lot less than £80.

LexyBoy · 8 Nov 2012

RPI said:
So what you propose is....... a PF scheme!

Except one where any ticket issued to passengers who passed by an opportunity to pay get charged, rather than only on the occasions that they get checked by an RPI rather than a guard or ATE. And which applies nationwide rather than only on certain TOCs in certain areas. Anyway...

RPI said:
Yes this is a bit of a grey area as the Intercity services double up as both commuter and local services however, the 3 FGW PF areas are operated independently of each other to prevent massive PF's being issued to people travelling long distance.

Yes, I think it works quite well in principle on FGW (though as I say I've not seen it applied), and it only seems unusual compared to other areas because FGW operate both IC and commuter routes, whereas on the ECML and WCML (and GWML in the past) they are seperate TOCs.

There's only one TOC which really abuses the PF scheme (and shouldn't have been allowed to implement it) by applying it to IC routes, but I won't Even Mention Them.

table38 · 8 Nov 2012

Well I've just taken a picture of this poster at Stalybridge. The question remains, how do I buy a £2 Evening Ranger after the Ticket Office has closed at 19:45?

-- update --

I've sent an email off to Northern via their website asking this very question. I'll post the reply here (assuming I get a reply; I'm not holding my breath as they only "aim to respond within 20 working days" and if they hold true to their previous form regarding enquiries about the availability of TfGM Evening Tickets, I'm expecting the usual deathy silence. So perhaps a follow up to TfGM may be in order!)

pemma · 8 Nov 2012

table38 said:
Well I've just taken a picture of this poster at Stalybridge. The question remains, how do I buy a £2 Evening Ranger after the Ticket Office has closed at 19:45?

The usual suggestion is to buy a cheaper ticket and to excess it but that wouldn't work on TPE if you were going to Manchester when the next stop is Manchester Piccadilly.

Also G4S seem to act more on people who've underpaid more than those who've 'not had the chance' to buy a ticket.

AndyLandy · 8 Nov 2012

It's been a while since I last used the MCR all the way to Piccadilly, so I'm quite intrigued to hear they're barriering platforms 11 and 12.

One thing I've never fully understood is why are there different PF rules for different TOCs? Why do some run (what appears to be a universal) PF scheme, yet others don't run one at all?

pemma · 8 Nov 2012

AndyLandy said:
It's been a while since I last used the MCR all the way to Piccadilly, so I'm quite intrigued to hear they're barriering platforms 11 and 12.

Which does of course make the ticket machine just before you go down to platforms 13/14 pretty useless.

Apparently the new arrangement results in G4S selling more tickets. I imagine they're doing a more effective job for Northern services, given that they'll get most of the Buxton and Chester service passengers being there.

One thing I've never fully understood is why are there different PF rules for different TOCs? Why do some run (what appears to be a universal) PF scheme, yet others don't run one at all?

Probably it dates back to the split up of BR when Network South East introduced penalty fares. Some operators outside that area have introduced them like Merseyrail, while others have kept things as they were like TPE.

Different companies have different views on how fare evasion is best tackled. For instance, Virgin are anti-ticket barrier while First proposed ticket barriers for WCML stations. I don't personally see the benefits of ticket barriers on Intercity travel but do on commuter lines with a frequent service like Merseyrail. So maybe different companies see penalty fares differently as well.

maniacmartin · 8 Nov 2012

jcollins said:
Virgin are anti-ticket barrie

They just have human ticket barriers instead!

table38 · 8 Nov 2012

Wow I got a reply from Northern after about one hour! I am suitably impressed and chastised in equal parts

Thank you for your e-mail, which I received recently.

If the ticket office is closed you can buy tickets on the train from the conductor.

If the ticket office is open then you should buy them from ticket office.

It is part of the conditions of carriage and is being monitored by revenue staff for all train operating companies.

This is due to significant fare evasion that exists currently.

if you offer to pay there is no issue.

I trust this information will help you further.

Which makes me think that on their poster the paragraph:

When you travel from a station with an open ticket office or ticket machine, you must have a ticket for the journey you are making before you get on the train.

could perhaps be worded a little more clearly!

pemma · 8 Nov 2012

maniacmartin said:
They just have human ticket barriers instead!

Which should be more effective for Virgin's services given that a lot of people travel on Advance tickets which are only usually valid on the specified train.

Starmill · 9 Nov 2012

jcollins said:
Northern do seem to be acting on these on the western side. If we take my local line (the Mid-Cheshire line.)

Northwich (which has a ticket office that closes early afternoon) has had a TVM installed, as have Greenbank (which is the highest used unstaffed station on the line) and Knutsford (which has too many passengers on busy trains for one ticket clerk to be able to deal with.)

The weekday ticket office hours at Northwich and Hale have been realigned to better meet demand. (Unfortunately not the case with Sunday at Knutsford though.)

There are scheduled to be 2 x additional on board ticket inspectors in the morning and evening peaks between Northwich and Altrincham (subject to guard availability.)

G4S are now a regular site at Knutsford and Northwich, not just an occasional site and they remain there for longer than previously.

Platform 11 at Piccadilly (where most services terminate) is now barriered for most of the day - although passengers transferring to services departing from platforms 13/14 are no longer asked for tickets as a result of the relocation.

The automatic barriers at Chester are also in operation for longer hours (but that's an ATW decision.)

The big question: does the Mid-Cheshire line have proper TVMs? Like the recently mentioned one on the 13/14 bridge at Piccadilly? Or the really rubbish ones that don't sell all the tickets you need (Metrolink, evening return ect. and possibly railcard, I haven't checked). Do they at the very least, accept cash?
In my view, installing a ticket machine that only accepts cards is totally pointless (I can see why they do it, increase ticket uptake for short journeys at unmanned/limited staff stations without having to pay to have cash taken to/from the machine, but that's beside the point).

The barrier changes at Piccadilly are rather odd. It has effectively split the station in two: 10,11,13 and 14 on one side, all the rest (including 12!!!) on the other. The moving "roadblocks" at the concourse ends of the platform also catch people, I think there are two (2/3 and 8/9 seem common)? Or maybe three. The problem is, of course, that there are holes. The overbridge is only barriered at the entrances to 13/14 - so its easily possible to access or exit any of platforms 1-9 by crossing the bridge and using the exit on platform 1. In addition, there is a lift from the unbarriered platform 12 up to 13 and 14!

In addition to this, G4S selling more tickets is exactly the opposite of what we should be aiming for - NORTHERN staff should be selling the tickets!!!

snail · 9 Nov 2012

starmill said:
The overbridge is only barriered at the entrances to 13/14 - so its easily possible to access or exit any of platforms 1-9 by crossing the bridge and using the exit on platform 1. In addition, there is a lift from the unbarriered platform 12 up to 13 and 14!

Last time I was there they had moved the barrier on the bridge to just after the steps to P10/11, so you couldn't get out that way. Also means you aren't checked twice coming off the concourse. Nothing at the lift though (which goes to ground level at Fairfleld St btw, I use it to get to Metrolink).

pemma · 9 Nov 2012

starmill said:
The big question: does the Mid-Cheshire line have proper TVMs? Like the recently mentioned one on the 13/14 bridge at Piccadilly? Or the really rubbish ones that don't sell all the tickets you need (Metrolink, evening return ect. and possibly railcard, I haven't checked). Do they at the very least, accept cash?

All the 3 TVMs at stations between Mouldsworth and Navigation Road are the new unbranded Northern ones. Greenbank and Northwich is card only, Knutsford is cash+card. Apparently, standard Northern practice is for stations which are unstaffed or which have a ticket office which is closed in the afternoon is to not install cash+card TVMs. The availability of evening returns and rail+Metrolink tickets is the same as other Northern TVMs. They weren't available but Northern were looking for a solution - I don't know if they've found one.

The number of TVMs does need increasing. I would suggest the following places need them installing:

* Altrincham platform 4 and Knutsford platform 2 because the accessible route to the ticket office from those platforms is quite lengthy.
* Hale - busiest station on the line without one.
* Navigation Road - it used to have an old style machine which Northern removed. Now it has no ticket selling facilities. Some locals have suggested putting a Northern TVM on the Metrolink platform at Navigation Road due to the level crossing barriers being down for long periods (and no foot bridge) so it would allow some rail passengers to purchase a ticket while waiting for the barriers to rise.

The barrier changes at Piccadilly are rather odd. It has effectively split the station in two: 10,11,13 and 14 on one side, all the rest (including 12!!!) on the other.

Are you sure about that? Last time I was there the door to platform 12 was locked off so any passengers going to that platform had to go via platform 11.

AndyLandy · 9 Nov 2012

jcollins said:
Are you sure about that? Last time I was there the door to platform 12 was locked off so any passengers going to that platform had to go via platform 11.

Hang about. Has Piccadilly been remodelled to accommodate these barrier checks? Last time I was there, there were sliding doors per pair of platforms, with 13-14 being between 9-10 and 11-12. If so, does anyone have any pics? I'd be curious to see what they've done to the place.

As for TVMs, I'm not a fan of them being installed at stations with no staff. If you want to sell tickets on the station, do it properly with a ticket office!

pemma · 9 Nov 2012

AndyLandy said:
Hang about. Has Piccadilly been remodelled to accommodate these barrier checks? Last time I was there, there were sliding doors per pair of platforms, with 13-14 being between 9-10 and 11-12. If so, does anyone have any pics? I'd be curious to see what they've done to the place.

Last time I was there those doors were locked with post office style barriers on either side of the doors.

I always used the doors marked 13-14 when going to platform 11 because it's quicker.

eastdyke · 9 Nov 2012

causton said:
Apparently according to the TfL Byelaws (this definition was changed in 2011 with approval of the Secretary of State) the definition of railway is: ......

Assuming PFs are issued under TfL byelaws, that would explain it...!

Thank you.

I found the Mayoral Decision paper prior to the TfL Penalty Fare Increase to £80 made in January 2012.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...jICAAQ&usg=AFQjCNGHqr3nr3lw8153linZq-a6th8_2w

Some sections make an interesting read. Section 7.1 outlines the consultation process under the relevant legislation.

Within Table 3 there is a comparison with Penalty Fares levied on other Worldwide transport networks.

With reference to (UK) TOC's:
"At least £20 but they are requesting an increase to a similar amount as the TfL scheme (DfT consultation outcome still pending)"

So my question is now what has happened to the DfT consultation?
I am aware of a response made by London TravelWatch in January 2010.

Which pending tray is the consultation buried in, has the consultation in fact been binned or is it just simply forgotten in the depths of Great Minster House?

snail · 9 Nov 2012

AndyLandy said:
Hang about. Has Piccadilly been remodelled to accommodate these barrier checks?

No. They have staff at the doors to 10/11 and temporary barriers to the left of the door so you can't enter at one of the other doors and walk through without being checked. The checks at 13/14 have been moved from the satellite lounge overbridge to between the stairs for 10/11 and 8/9 again using temporary barriers. So, for example, you can't use the escalator on P7 and get through to the lounge (or 13/14) without showing a ticket.

You can though now exit P14 without being stopped at the top of the stairs as the check is as you enter the concourse, or on the bridge if you head for P1-9.

Northern trial £80 fixed penalty for people caught without ticket for 2nd time.

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