Required walks

maniacmartin · 10 Feb 2013

I don't think your opinion would get you past LUL gateline staff without a maltese cross

I think this is one of the mysteries that could only be clarified by ATOC, and basemaps may render irrelevant anyway

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hairyhandedfool · 11 Feb 2013

Mojo said:
The NRCOC says "trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services;" surely someone walking is neither a train, nor a scheduled passenger service?

In which case the shortest route can only be by direct train.

soil said:
Indeed, however the routeing guide says:

"As the shortest route for any journey is always a permitted route, this can be checked, and the distance between stations calculated, from the National Rail Timetable. Mileages appear in the station column at the beginning of each major table, except table 51. To arrive at the throughout distance for travel between every station by any route, add mileages together for the component parts of the journey by referring to the relevant timetables. "

The timetable says

"Look up your destination. If it appears in up to ﬁve tables, those tables are listed (for example Hilsea appears in Tables 156, 157, 158, 165 and 188). If it appears in six or more then there may be sub-divisions. If your destination is subdivided in this way and your origin is NOT shown (for example Shipley is not shown under Lancaster) then look up the origin instead as it probably has fewer tables. Alongside the station name is shown a two character code indicating which operator is responsible for operating the facilities at that station (see also Train Operator pages)."

"If your journey is more complicated and involves several changes between tables, the Timetable Network Map will be very useful."

The London and Southeast map is admirably clear, and clearly shows the tables required:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/maps/NetworkRail_L&SEmap.pdf

So what you appear to be saying is that because the NRT appears to give no mileage for the LUL services they cannot be used to determine the shortest route.

If that is so, do you believe that the route Battersea Park-Victoria-Euston-South Hampstead is not a permitted route?

maniacmartin · 11 Feb 2013

hairyhandedfool said:
In which case the shortest route can only be by direct train.

My interpretation is that walking between platforms within a station is not classed as "walking", but walking between stations is. I believe that most people share this view. I believe that we had a similar discussion before, where Waterloo/Waterloo East and Kings Cross/St Pancras were given as an edgecases.

If that is so, do you believe that the route Battersea Park-Victoria-Euston-South Hampstead is not a permitted route?

This is perhaps a bad example, as ANY PERMITTED tickets have a maltese cross, and there are mapped routes "LONDON".

hairyhandedfool · 11 Feb 2013

maniacmartin said:
My interpretation is that walking between platforms within a station is not classed as "walking", but walking between stations is. I believe that most people share this view. I believe that we had a similar discussion before, where Waterloo/Waterloo East and Kings Cross/St Pancras were given as an edgecases....

Clearly people have different interpretations of what is allowed, so we need to know what the rules actually are or they become useless, thus 'interpretation' isn't what we need here.

Walking between some stations can be shorter than changing platforms on others. Why should one be allowed and the other not when there are no instructions to show that it is the case.

maniacmartin said:
....This is perhaps a bad example, as ANY PERMITTED tickets have a maltese cross, and there are mapped routes "LONDON".

The routes over which a ticket is permitted are:

The shortest route (or a route no more than three miles longer).
By direct train.
Routes allowed by the Routeing Guide (RG).

The Maltese Cross simply means that the cost of crossing London, by DLR, LUL or FCC (Thameslink) services, is included in the cost of the ticket, nothing more.

These rules are found in the NRCoC and the RG

So:

There are no direct trains between Battersea Park and South Hampstead
The RG states that because there is a common Routeing Point (London Group) the only route it permits is the shortest route (or a route no more than three miles longer).

Which leaves us with the shortest route and routes that are no more than three miles longer than the shortest route.

maniacmartin · 11 Feb 2013

The RG instructions also say

If the routeing code is "LONDON", journeys include the cost of cross-London
transfer either by London Underground or Thameslink services. In all cases
the transfer points should be along the correct line of route given by the
‘permitted route’ map combinations.

By saying that it was perhaps a bad example, I meant that in this case it wouldn't matter if the shortest route was via the tube, as it is a mapped route anyway.

hairyhandedfool · 11 Feb 2013

What Routeing Points are you using?

maniacmartin · 11 Feb 2013

Ah. I see my mistake. The LONDON maps are all for travel using RPs that wouldn't be relevant to the cross-London journey.

soil · 11 Feb 2013

Battersea Park - South Hampstead share a routeing point (London), so Battersea Park - Victoria and South Hampstead - Euston are definitely valid.

In addition, LU will accept your ticket between Victoria and Euston because of the Maltese Cross. Simple as that IMO.

(Walking of course would also be permitted)

maniacmartin · 11 Feb 2013

I don't think there's any disagreement on that. The ambiguity is whether it would be accepted under the shortest route rule, were it not a mapped route.

soil · 11 Feb 2013

It isn't a mapped route.

hairyhandedfool · 11 Feb 2013

soil said:
Battersea Park - South Hampstead share a routeing point (London), so Battersea Park - Victoria and South Hampstead - Euston are definitely valid....

On what basis are you saying it is definitely valid?

soil said:
....In addition, LU will accept your ticket between Victoria and Euston because of the Maltese Cross. Simple as that IMO.

(Walking of course would also be permitted)

The LUL accepting it across London does not make it valid to or from London though.

soil · 11 Feb 2013

hairyhandedfool said:
On what basis are you saying it is definitely valid?

"If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains."

Victoria and Euston are both 'London', and therefore a train from Battersea Park to Victoria and a train from South Hampstead to Euston is a route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point.

The LUL accepting it across London does not make it valid to or from London though.

"The via London, Maltese Cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket
may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket
specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to
use an alternative permitted route for their journey as provided by the
Routeing Guide"

I would interpret this meaning that the route

Battersea Park - Victoria
(walk)
Euston - South Hampstead
which is a valid route via the common routeing point is also valid

Battersea Park - Victoria
LUL
Euston - South Hampstead

hairyhandedfool · 11 Feb 2013

soil said:
"If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains."....

Ah, from page F7, one of the examples that that is supposed to help you understand the Routeing Guide rules, but actually one that spends most of it's time making up new ones.:roll:

yorkie · 11 Feb 2013

hairyhandedfool said:
Ah, from page F7, one of the examples that that is supposed to help you understand the Routeing Guide rules, but actually one that spends most of it's time making up new ones.:roll:

I can't accept your arguments with regard walks, but I share your frustration about "The Routeing Guide in Detail" which should have been merged with the "Introduction" to form one set of instructions.

I suspect that these sections will be both merged, and re-written, with the introduction of the new 'Basemaps', but what concerns me is the way it will be done has the ability to wipe out plenty of permitted routes at a stroke. Which requires Passenger Focus approval (they will just agree to it as they won't understand it!) and DfT approval (who will agree to it because if they don't the TOCs will complain of potential revenue loss).

IanD · 11 Feb 2013

hairyhandedfool said:
...
Where does it say that a route that is shorter than 'The Shortest Route' is allowed?

Exactly. It doesn't. The routeing guide says you can use "the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles" i.e. the route can be longer but by no more than 3 miles. Nowhere does it say you can use shorter routes.

Mutant Lemming · 13 Feb 2013

yorkie said:
You don't have to, and the tickets are to Newark Stations.

Although there are certain advances from Lincoln to Kings Cross that require a walk from Castle to Northgate - which is a bit of a trek and not that well signed for the unweary.

Required walks

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