Southeastern's Take on Change of Route Excesses

Having had a couple of cases where a Southeastern guard has asked for the full difference in price between two routes (although to be fair, on one occasion this was a trivial amount anyway), I was interested to see what the official view from Southeastern is.

I sent the following:

TheJRB said:

Dear Sir or Madam,


I'm writing to enquire about excess fares. On a couple of occasions, I have held tickets with a specific route and have wished to excess the ticket to one with a different, more expensive route for the return leg of the journey. The only part of the ticket I want to excess is the route on the return portion. I have been told by a number of people that with a single direction change of route excess, only half the difference between the appropriate fares is required (as only one half of the ticket is being changed).

On a couple of occasions, I have been told that this is not the case by Southeastern guards and that the full difference is necessary. Which is true? For example if I held an off-peak day return Ashford to Gatwick with 16-25 railcard routed "Via Edenbridge" priced £9.90 and wished to excess to "† Any Permitted" priced £25.50 for the return portion only, should I be charged £15.60 or £7.80?


Many thanks

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Today, I received an interesting reply from Southeastern:

Southeastern said:

Thank you for your web form dated 4 June 2014.

I understand that you wish to know if you can pay an excess of the return portion of ticket to go via any route permitted.

Unfortunately, this is not possible you would need to either buy an any route permitted return. Or purchase two singles. Using your example:

1st single Ashford to Gatwick via Edenbridge.
2 single Gatwick to Ashford any permitted route.

If you would like us to find cheapest tickets for any route you would like, please do not hesitate to contact us on the above number.

Thank you once again for taking the time to contact us.

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They seem to be suggesting that I shouldn't even be being offered the £15.60 option! I am of course grateful for the quick and courteous response and can see the merit of what is being suggested (if indeed we lived in a world where singles where actually half the price of returns!) but is this actually correct?

Why are these things so very complicated that even getting a clear official answer is so tough?! :roll:

Given that this is SouthEastern, I would say you need to reply in a firm tone. You can tell them to check the iKB as their reply is nonsense.

You can also tell them that if a satisfactory response is not received in 28 days, you will report their breach of the franchise terms and the terms of the TSA to the DfT.

They need to be told, or this will drag on forever.

The issue here is a lack of accreditation for ticketing knowledge within the railway industry. The truth is, people who aren't au fait with the intricacies of ticketing are liable to accept the judgement of someone who purports to be an expert - they might ask a friend who has checked tickets for 20 years or some other person who is regarded as good with tickets, but doesn't actually keep up to date with the developments.

What Southeastern ought to do with queries of this nature is identify an individual within their organisation who has the ability to read and understand the relevant part of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which can be found here - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf. They have definitely done so in recent weeks - I will expand on this later.

In this case, Condition 13e is relevant.

As for their guards - don't have it from them if they refuse to sell you what you're entitled to buy and compel you to buy a more expensive ticket. If they need to obtain information that is satisfactory to them in this respect, they need to do it in their own time and at no cost or inconvenience to you.

Might be worth mentioning that, AFAIK, customer relations staff get as much ticket training as platform staff (i.e. none), so asking them anything about excess fares procedures is likely to get an incorrect response (in fact most ticket office staff seem to get bugger all training in regard to excess fares!).

hairyhandedfool said:

Might be worth mentioning that, AFAIK, customer relations staff get as much ticket training as platform staff (i.e. none), so asking them anything about excess fares procedures is likely to get an incorrect response (in fact most ticket office staff seem to get bugger all training in regard to excess fares!).

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Those Customer Relations staff need to be referring the query to someone who does know the answer then. Rather than making it up as they go along. These procedures are allowed by the NRCoC to give passengers maximum flexibility in their contract with TOCs. It's high time more was done by Passenger Focus to ensure these contractual rights are correctly given when requested. Without bullsh*t, obfuscation, lies, and the all to often 'I can't be ars*d to do anything other than sell a ticket from A to B'.

It's not beedin' rocket surgery (or brain science if you prefer ). After all, the correct procedures for excess fares are there in iKB (thanks National Rail Enquiries for putting that in the public domain, albeit briefly - long enough though to download the whole shebang) and they aren't that hard to read and follow.

The problem is that there is no official answer - the excess should be half the fares, going on industry guidance, but this is not public information so you have a hard time if they claim otherwise.

TheJRB said:

I am of course grateful for the quick and courteous response

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An incorrect answer is worse than a late one. It's the responsibility of customer services to get the right answer even if it's not something they know offhand. If speed is so important then there's nothing wrong with a "thanks for your enquiry, we are consulting with an expert bod and will get back to you soon".

I had a similar issue with FGW at Paddington - in the end they admitted I was right but I got the impression it was get me off their backs (for the sake of a fiver), rather than because anyone had actually checked.

Why do rail companies exude such incompetence in their own business area? Again and again customers are financially penalised for the companies' lack of understanding of their own rules.

I often travel to London on southeasterns 'classic lines', meaning I obtain a super off peak ticket.

Fairly often I end up in the situation where it would be useful to travel to London Charing Cross but then return via HS1.

There is no high speed upgrade available for this, and the ticket office is always closed on my return, how exactly am I expected to obtain the excess? I don't really want to end up in the situation where I am arguing with the gateline staff minutes before the last train!

RJ said:

As for their guards - don't have it from them if they refuse to sell you what you're entitled to buy and compel you to buy a more expensive ticket. If they need to obtain information that is satisfactory to them in this respect, they need to do it in their own time and at no cost or inconvenience to you.

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Is there any process for refusing a guards demands whilst actually on the train if you know he is wrong?
Could one make him read the NRCoC, or other such information source, and if he refuses can you then refuse his request, secure in the knowledge that you are correct?

RJ said:

What Southeastern ought to do with queries of this nature is identify an individual within their organisation who has the ability to read and understand the relevant part of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which can be found here - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/NRCOC.pdf. They have definitely done so in recent weeks - I will expand on this later.

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A promise is a promise - I've scanned in a letter I received from Southeastern. It's completely at odds with what their front line staff believe and act upon, it wouldn't surprise me if they actually asked ATOC to provide answers for most of the questions. I rang them because of yet another dispute I was dragged into whereby their staff took exception to the valid ticket I was using.

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higthomas said:

Is there any process for refusing a guards demands whilst actually on the train if you know he is wrong?
Could one make him read the NRCoC, or other such information source, and if he refuses can you then refuse his request, secure in the knowledge that you are correct?

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All you can do is try. If they don't know in the first instance which ticket is the most appropriate to excess to, you must always tell them which ticket you wish to be excessed to and if possible, the price.

Some will correctly excess to what you require. Excellent.
Some will listen to what you have to say or read your documentation then sell you the excess. Very good.
Some will refuse to listen to you and demand you pay what they think you should pay. Not so good.

I've found the best way to deal with guards in the third category is to end the conversation. If they aren't listening to you, or dismissing what you say when you have evidence to support it, it isn't a two way conversation, so your participation isn't required. You then pay for the excess at the first practicable opportunity. Paying up with a view to getting a refund later isn't making things easy - the investigative abilities of those in Customer Services aren't always up to scratch as can be seen from the first post - getting reimbursed is unlikely to be a straightforward process.

It might sound somewhat insolent, but it won't apply to many guards, who are both knowledgeable and good with their customers. Some guards cannot be seen to be learning something new from a customer and would sooner press on with their original stance. Ending the conversation takes the power away from these bullying types. Arguing the toss, no matter how you do it, is only ever going to get their back up. By taking a more reserved stance, it knocks them for six and can even pique their interest. It's extremely effective in getting them to go away, have a think and come back to you prepared to listen to you.

RJ said:

Some will correctly excess to what you require. Excellent.
Some will listen to what you have to say or read your documentation then sell you the excess. Very good.
Some will refuse to listen to you and demand you pay what they think you should pay. Not so good.

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The funny thing is that I've never had a difficulty in getting a change of route excess for the whole ticket. It's just that every Southeastern guard I've spoken to has automatically tried to charge me the full amount even when I've said I only wanted to change one leg. This was proven by the time I went along with it (40p vs 20p so I was hardly going to complain) that I received excesses for both portions (which could have come in handy on that day though, I admit).

On the occasion that I did contest paying the full difference, arguing that I was being offered an excess for both portions, the guard told me that as the difference between the single and return was only 10p, I couldn't pay only half the difference!

FWIW here's what SET said to me recently after I had an issue getting an excess at Strood. I ended up buying a single to complete my journey but managed to get the excess anyway from the guard on the train.

Thank you for your web form dated 28 March.

I'm very sorry you were sold the incorrect ticket for your journey at Strood station. I realise this must have been frustrating for you.

As the cost of your ticket is the same from East Farleigh no additional fare should have been charged and you should have been given the excess ticket at no additional cost. Our staff should be aware of how to issue excess tickets, so please be assured I've brought this matter to the attention of the station manager.

I'm pleased to reimburse the additional cost and have posted a national rail voucher to the value of £1.30 to your address. This should arrive within the next few days.

Once again, please accept my apologies for the mistake that was made on this occasion and thank you for taking the time to contact us.

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I found a fascinating FOI request to East Coast. Their response gives clear procedures for how to calculate excess fares in all circumstances including, most importantly for my case, change of route excesses on page 2.

Here's the document (links directly to the PDF): https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/121910/response/297518/attach/4/Appendix%20I%20Rev%20Prot%20Handbook%20Section%20C7%20May%202012.pdf.

This evening I collected a TOD ticket from the TVM at Maidstone East for travel tomorrow and was refused an excess at the ticket office because "the conductor has an excess button on his machine and it's a convoluted process here".

O/T but the woman 2 in front of me wanted an open return to a London Underground station - she was given a ticket to London and told to buy an Oyster card upon arrival (instead of a Zone U1 etc ticket)

thebigcheese said:

This evening I collected a TOD ticket from the TVM at Maidstone East for travel tomorrow and was refused an excess at the ticket office because "the conductor has an excess button on his machine and it's a convoluted process here".

O/T but the woman 2 in front of me wanted an open return to a London Underground station - she was given a ticket to London and told to buy an Oyster card upon arrival (instead of a Zone U1 etc ticket)

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Depends on the Underground Station but if its an open return it must be off peak so its probably good advice?

thebigcheese said:

This evening I collected a TOD ticket from the TVM at Maidstone East for travel tomorrow and was refused an excess at the ticket office because "the conductor has an excess button on his machine and it's a convoluted process here".

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I'm not sure what system they use, but I know a few staff at Southern ticket offices who will not find the process at all slow or annoying, even if it is a bit convoluted. In fact, some of them will look upon it as an interesting diversion from selling CDRs to London. So, on the face of it (and I stress that), that does sound a bit lazy or like there is an underlying system issue for them.

O/T but the woman 2 in front of me wanted an open return to a London Underground station - she was given a ticket to London and told to buy an Oyster card upon arrival (instead of a Zone U1 etc ticket)

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This can sometimes be good advice. I've given it myself in some circumstances, as appropriate. Nobody's ever complained that I've done so.

Well I feel she should have been given the choice - espec as she'll have to fork up £5 for a deposit and queue up again in London.

As for my excess got on the train this morning and the conductor spent a good 5 minutes prodding his machine before declaring he couldn't do it "as the machine doesn't recognise the ticket as it was from a TVM, when you next change trains go to the ticket office". Something mighty iffy is going on at SET.

thebigcheese said:

Well I feel she should have been given the choice - espec as she'll have to fork up £5 for a deposit and queue up again in London.

As for my excess got on the train this morning and the conductor spent a good 5 minutes prodding his machine before declaring he couldn't do it "as the machine doesn't recognise the ticket as it was from a TVM, when you next change trains go to the ticket office". Something mighty iffy is going on at SET.

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Not everybody is au fait with technology - some people will flick through the software to familiarise themselves with it, whilst others don't get on with it and can only do some of what they've been trained to do. Quality training and equal quality staff support would mitigate the chances of this sort of thing happening.

TheJRB said:

I found a fascinating FOI request to East Coast. Their response gives clear procedures for how to calculate excess fares in all circumstances including, most importantly for my case, change of route excesses on page 2.

Here's the document (links directly to the PDF): https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/121910/response/297518/attach/4/Appendix%20I%20Rev%20Prot%20Handbook%20Section%20C7%20May%202012.pdf.

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Noting it is a 2012 disclosure to which you referred it was interesting to read in the excess proceedure to follow when combining tickets in the case when a train does not stop at a station where there is a change over of tickets

. . .
]NOTE: You should not charge an excess fare if: -
1. The customer has a Season Ticket (not a Passenger Transport
Executive or local authority one) in combination with any other kind of
valid ticket, and both tickets cover the entire journey.
2. If both tickets are zonal tickets and cover the entire journey.

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My bold etc.
It seems that EC only allow, or allowed, two ticket for a journey rather than a season and as many other tickets as wanted - whether or not the train stops at the change over stations concerned.
Is there a more uptodate policy document?
CoC 19c

Well, well. I got an email today:

Southeastern said:

Thank your recent contact via our Twitter Feed.

I'm very sorry that you've needed to get back to us because you're unhappy with the way in which your recent fares enquiry was handled. Having had this opportunity to review the position, I can understand the reason for your dissatisfaction, so I hope that the following will help to clarify the position for you.

If you want to change the route of travel in one direction only with a return ticket, you should pay half the difference between the price already paid and price of the cheapest return ticket that will allow you to travel on the changed route. So, if the travel is by the more expensive route in one direction only, then only half the return difference should be paid - which, in the case of the specific fare that you you've asked about, would be £7.90.

Once again, I'm very sorry that you've needed to get back to us about this. I hope that this has helped to clarify the position for you, but please do not hesitate to get back in touch with us if we can help you further.

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I'll be keeping that with me everywhere I go! Needless to say, I'm very happy with the response and glad that it's finally been clarified.