burneside
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What is the "hideous mess" are you referring to? To many of us this is the beginning of a bright new future.
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Tony Blair- is a comeback possible ?
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What is the "hideous mess" are you referring to? To many of us this is the beginning of a bright new future.
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
A bright new future with less money and annoyed neighbours?
What do you think this bright future looks like? I've yet to hear a leaver actually answer that question.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
It's all about taking back control. You know, the sort of control that means an unelected PM tries to pass enormous constitutional change using the monarch's powers in lieu.
Perhaps the Empire is coming back overnight?
Does anyone know how the future will be brighter, when we will be less well off, less well-regarded by our neighbours, and impotent in effecting change in our neighbourhood?
Discussing Brexit in terms of Tony Blair's involvement is fine but a more general discussion of Brexit and its implications should be conducted on our existing thread which can be found here.
CarlSilva
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He doesn't represent a century, he represents people who vote for him, and there are quite a lot of those.
burneside
Member
We don't know that until there is an election.
CarlSilva
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burneside
Member
Yes we do. He's won the leadership election, twice.
Labour has 500k members, the electoral roll numbers around 45 million. Maybe you are overestimating your chances of success.
New Labour's policies of the 2000s were in no way 'socialist'.
Butts
Veteran Member
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The evidence of the existence of those weapons failed to convince many of the population at the time but appears to have convinced a majority of MPs, possibly because both main parties' top people had decided to support it and MPs will generally vote as they are told to. But we now know the actual evidence was even more flimsy than it appeared. To go to war, ostensibly on the basis of that evidence, Blair and those around him were at the very least displaying poor judgment and quite possibly were using it to sell a decision already made to go to war for other reasons. So as I see it, the choice is between incompetent and deceitful.
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southern442
Established Member
Yes we do. He's won the leadership election, twice.
Plus he won the local elections this year, and with a better percentage than Blair had in 1995.
As for welcoming him back into politics, I think we should first see him tried/ ̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶d̶,̶ ̶d̶r̶a̶w̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶q̶u̶a̶r̶t̶e̶r̶e̶d̶ for war crimes, because the public needs to know if he can be trusted. And even if he can get past that stage, I don't think he will be supported by all that many people, especially as he is part of the "establishment". Not to mention that he will split the Labour vote quite significantly, so there's no way he could get back into power (fortunately).
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
No - Corncob didn't do that at all. The elections in 1995 and 2016 were contesting a different set of seats - so they aren’t directly comparable.
That said Tony Blair gained 1,807 seats overall while Corbyn lost 11 seats overall.
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adrock1976
Established Member
But how many local council wards have been redrawn since then?
Also in Scotland, the local council wards are multi-member, electing representatives in proportion to the votes received and ranked in order of preference.
Also in Scotland, the local council wards are multi-member, electing representatives in proportion to the votes received and ranked in order of preference.
While the same walk around free with their get out of jail free cards which promise that no criminal action will be taken against them EVERY SINGLE British serviceman will now be investigated by the P.S.N. That's the sort of deal that this two faced bar steward pulled to claim the Good Friday agreement. A total sell-out of good men and women. That'll be more millions for the lawyers - people like that other bar steward Phil Shiner who paid Iraqis to tout for business.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
I was going to post a very long response to this, which I ended up saving as a draft. But it was incredibly off topic.
tl;dr: Stop reading right wing papers and focusing on individual misdeeds as representative of widespread trends. That works both ways.
Johnuk123
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The newspaper police are in again.You must consider yourself very important to tell people what paper they should be reading.
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
You missed the "and" in the quote. Nothing wrong with reading the Sun, but don't do it AND focus on individual case studies, which are always warped. It is very lazy and doesn't help you understand the context, which in this case, is that the PSNI are investigating ALL unexplained deaths, not just soldiers.
Phil Shiner also has nothing to do with the PSNI investigation.
I'm also quite happy to accept that some people don't actually value context. It is for this reason that I hugely abbreviated by previous post. None of you will give a toss about what I wrote.
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Johnuk123
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I didn't mention Phil Shiner.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
I never said you did, did I?
Johnuk123
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Why did you tell me this when I never said he did.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
I wasn't telling you, you and I aren't the only two people who can read the posts...
Railops
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You missed the "and" in the quote. Nothing wrong with reading the Sun, but don't do it AND focus on individual case studies, which are always warped. It is very lazy and doesn't help you understand the context, which in this case, is that the PSNI are investigating ALL unexplained deaths, not just soldiers.
Phil Shiner also has nothing to do with the PSNI investigation.
I'm also quite happy to accept that some people don't actually value context. It is for this reason that I hugely abbreviated by previous post. None of you will give a toss about what I wrote.
Can you point me to a recent quote from the PSNI that they are going to re investigate all terrorist murders of British soldiers.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
See: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/08/inquiry-killings-british-troops-police-troubles
“There is no new single probe or bespoke inquiry into deaths attributed to the British army,” said assistant chief constable Mark Hamilton, head of the PSNI’s legacy and justice department. “All Troubles-related deaths will be reviewed by LIB using the case sequencing model, which does not prioritise military cases. This is not a new decision.”
(my bolding)
They are going to investigate all deaths in the Troubles. This will include many unexplained deaths of soldiers - though the number investigated will naturally be smaller. This is because most of the times a soldier was killed, it was known, or found out, who did it, and most of the time, the person or persons were brought to justice. A small number of terrorists claimed the bulk of security forces' deaths.
In 2014, the LIB took over responsibility for investigating the 3,200 homicides that took place .... The branch’s workload includes 238 incidents attributed to British troops.
So less than 10% of the inquiry's scope is into incidents where British soldiers opened fire.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
My point is illustrated thus:
The TELEGRAPH reports that:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...estigated-killings-troubles-northern-ireland/
All British troops involved in fatal incidents during the Troubles in Northern Ireland are to face a fresh criminal investigation, it has been reported.
As many as 1,000 former servicemen, many in their 60s and 70s, will be investigated and could be treated as murder or manslaughter suspects as part of a multi-million pound review.
The Police Service of Northern Ireland's Legacy Investigation Branch will look at all 238 fatal incidents in which 302 people, many of them terrorists, died.
The SUN reports that:
ALL 302 killings by British troops during Northern Irelands 30 years of The Troubles are being investigated afresh, The Sun can reveal.
Possibly more than 1,000 ex-servicemen, many now in their 60s or 70s, will be viewed as manslaughter or murder suspects in a legal inquiry costing taxpayers tens of millions of pounds.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/23531...-30-years-of-the-troubles-branded-witch-hunt/
At no point in either of those articles is it explained that ALL deaths, including deaths of soldiers, will be investigated.
The TELEGRAPH reports that:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...estigated-killings-troubles-northern-ireland/
All British troops involved in fatal incidents during the Troubles in Northern Ireland are to face a fresh criminal investigation, it has been reported.
As many as 1,000 former servicemen, many in their 60s and 70s, will be investigated and could be treated as murder or manslaughter suspects as part of a multi-million pound review.
The Police Service of Northern Ireland's Legacy Investigation Branch will look at all 238 fatal incidents in which 302 people, many of them terrorists, died.
The SUN reports that:
ALL 302 killings by British troops during Northern Irelands 30 years of The Troubles are being investigated afresh, The Sun can reveal.
Possibly more than 1,000 ex-servicemen, many now in their 60s or 70s, will be viewed as manslaughter or murder suspects in a legal inquiry costing taxpayers tens of millions of pounds.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/23531...-30-years-of-the-troubles-branded-witch-hunt/
At no point in either of those articles is it explained that ALL deaths, including deaths of soldiers, will be investigated.
Railops
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The N.I chief prosecutor is republican lawyer Barra McGrory.
This guy was only appointed to the bar in 2009 and is the first solicitor in NI to be made a QC. He has had a meteoric rise to the top and has been groomed for the senior prosecutorial role from day one.
This bloke who is very entrenched within the republican cause and has represented both the IRA chief of staff Adams and McGuinness is about the last person who you would rely upon to be even handed.
His organisation will be instructing the police to be dragging old soldiers out of their retirement homes in this purely political stunt. The chances of any of Adam's and McGuinness's old murdering comrades being back in court is nil.
Mcgrory represents the IRA in the OTR cases and has always been the IRA's lawyer of choice. In his role as DPP Mcgrory has never made one an important decision that has gone against the IRA or Sinn Fein.
Anybody who seriously believes that McGrory with his background and long case load of representing republican terrorists will be bringing any IRA members to justice is a an idiot.
This guy was only appointed to the bar in 2009 and is the first solicitor in NI to be made a QC. He has had a meteoric rise to the top and has been groomed for the senior prosecutorial role from day one.
This bloke who is very entrenched within the republican cause and has represented both the IRA chief of staff Adams and McGuinness is about the last person who you would rely upon to be even handed.
His organisation will be instructing the police to be dragging old soldiers out of their retirement homes in this purely political stunt. The chances of any of Adam's and McGuinness's old murdering comrades being back in court is nil.
Mcgrory represents the IRA in the OTR cases and has always been the IRA's lawyer of choice. In his role as DPP Mcgrory has never made one an important decision that has gone against the IRA or Sinn Fein.
Anybody who seriously believes that McGrory with his background and long case load of representing republican terrorists will be bringing any IRA members to justice is a an idiot.
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Lucky, then, that he has excused himself from cases where there is a clear conflict of interest, including Bloody Sunday.
Personally I think that a truth and reconciliation process would be much better than dragging anyone out of their retirement home to face prosecution. Any prosecution-based system is going to face the same mud-slinging, primarily from the unionist side who are historically more used to being protected. The Historical Enquiries Team was dissolved and replaced because even HM Inspectorate of Constabularies found that "state involvement cases [were] being reviewed with less rigour in some areas than non-state cases".
The British Army were by no means innocent, as the Miami Showband massacre, amongst other things, proved.
All of this is off-topic in a discussion about Tony Blair, mind.
Railops
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Only some cases not all by any means.
He has not withdrawn himself from decisions relating to many members of Sinn Fein/IRA even though he represented that particular party corporately.
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