Tony Blair- is a comeback possible ?

[AlterEgo]

Personally I think that a truth and reconciliation process would be much better than dragging anyone out of their retirement home to face prosecution. Any prosecution-based system is going to face the same mud-slinging, primarily from the unionist side who are historically more used to being protected.

Hear, hear.

How refreshing it would be for a general amnesty to be granted on ALL parties between 1969-1998.

Let us all draw a line, and look forwards, not backwards. I have no wish to see pensioner soldiers, IRA men, or UVF "brigadiers" stand up in front of a jury. It has all happened. We should all focus on picking up the pieces.

 

[Railops]

Tony Blair called it a "peace process" but as everyone knows it was a complete and utter surrender to republican terrorism as we now have convicted terrorists walking the streets and the IRA in Government.

 

[AlterEgo]

Tony Blair called it a "peace process" but as everyone knows it was a complete and utter surrender to republican terrorism as we now have convicted terrorists walking the streets and in Government.

That is a depressingly bitter and myopic outlook.

There are many convicted terrorists walking the streets in Northern Ireland. Lots of them were IRA men. Some were members of various Protestant paramilitary groups. Some Protestant terror groups are still active in the community. Some republican terrorists are involved in the community too.

No matter where you turn, there can be accusations of victimhood, unfairness, and so on.

In NI this kind of nonsense is called "whataboutery".

What about 1 PARA? What about Colonel Wilford getting an MBE in the same year as Bloody Sunday? What about two members of Support Company who killed at least five unarmed men between them getting into the SAS the following year? What about Ballymurphy? What about Manus Deery?

None of this kind of mud-slinging is productive, nor is it going to lead to a happier, fairer society.

The NI Troubles were ghastly on all sides. Nobody can claim the moral high ground. It is about time people stopped shroud-waving.

 

[Railops]

That is a depressingly bitter and myopic outlook.

There are many convicted terrorists walking the streets in Northern Ireland. Lots of them were IRA men. Some were members of various Protestant paramilitary groups. Some Protestant terror groups are still active in the community. Some republican terrorists are involved in the community too.

No matter where you turn, there can be accusations of victimhood, unfairness, and so on.

In NI this kind of nonsense is called "whataboutery".

What about 1 PARA? What about Colonel Wilford getting an MBE in the same year as Bloody Sunday? What about two members of Support Company who killed at least five unarmed men between them getting into the SAS the following year? What about Ballymurphy? What about Manus Deery?

None of this kind of mud-slinging is productive, nor is it going to lead to a happier, fairer society.

The NI Troubles were ghastly on all sides. Nobody can claim the moral high ground. It is about time people stopped shroud-waving.

Your accusation that the British army and terrorists are on the same level, play to the same rules and are just as bad as one another is depressingly liberal and quite wrong.

Would you be content to have members of UK ISIS terrorists in the Government.

 

[AlterEgo]

Your accusation that the British army and the IRA are on the same level, play to the same rules and are just as bad as one another

I've not stated or even implied that, and note again that all the focus is unhelpfully on the IRA, like they were the only protagonists. More whataboutery...again.

In any case, the Army plays by different rules - we expect them to - rightly so, because they are the armed executors and defenders of the state. This is why it is even more perverse that murder should be tolerated and not investigated within Army ranks. The Army is a de facto legitimate body quite unlike loosely organised paramilitary groups. I argue that right-thinking people should be grossly *more* offended when the Army commits crimes and breaches the Geneva Convention, than when paramilitary terrorists do, because after all, they are the terrorists, and we expect no less from them, right? There were only two convictions for murder of any British soldier during the whole conflict, and both soldiers were readmitted to the Army.

The important thing to take from the Troubles conflict is that it frankly doesn't matter what anyone thinks in 2016 - it isn't going to bring dead people back, nor right the considerable wrongs of the past. It is precisely that flavour of bitterness about the partition of Ireland, the wrongful setup of the State, the lack of acknowledgement of sections of the community etc, which led to the Troubles of 1969 onwards.

It does nobody any favours to bemoan "conceding to Republican terrorists". Republicans did not win the Troubles - none of their objectives were realised and everything ended up in compromise.

Look backwards all you want, but it'll hurt your neck.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Indeed one wonders how WW2 could have been conducted had the current invasive intrusions by the media been present.

Bombing of Dresden, Hamburg spring to mind - is Churchill a War Criminal as well?

The Geneva Convention changed after WW2. Were the likes of Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima, etc to happen today it would be a war crime. One wonders if Putin should be put on trial for Aleppo?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Your accusation that the British army and terrorists are on the same level, play to the same rules and are just as bad as one another is depressingly liberal and quite wrong.

There were plenty of members of the British Army who were also terrorists. Three British soldiers were found guilty of the Miami Showband massacre. The Glenanne Gang, who set three bombs off in Dublin within minutes of each other killing 33 people (including two infants and a pregnant woman) in the worst single atrocity of the Troubles, were known to include several serving British soldiers.

The Miami Showband killers were released in 1998, along with other terrorists.

So your comment:

Would you be content to have members of UK ISIS terrorists in the Government.

is nothing more than whataboutery. The UVF included soldiers. The UVF were terrorists.

As I've said, the best way forward for peace in Northern Ireland is to offer amnesty to everyone and to have a truthful discussion about what happened and why. We went a long way towards this with the releases under the Good Friday Agreement- on both sides- and a truthful and honest conversation is the best way to settle the past. Trying to pin the blame on one community won't bring back the dead but it will make it more likely to see more dead in the future.

You can be as dismissive as you want about the peace process, but the fact is that Northern Ireland is now largely at peace and the Republicans did not achieve any of their primary objectives. I think that is a huge success.

 

[Railops]

There were plenty of members of the British Army who were also terrorists.

What an astounding comment, as you say there were "plenty" of members of the British army who were terrorists in the NI conflict can you supply a list of all the ones who were convicted of terrorism offences.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What an astounding comment

No it isn't, and I've just mentioned the Glenanne Gang and the killers of the Miami Showband as two examples.

Three of the leaders of the UVF were also British soldiers.

Plenty more UVF members came from the RUC.

 

[AlterEgo]

What an astounding comment, as you say there were "plenty" of members of the British army who were terrorists in the NI conflict can you supply a list of all the ones who were convicted of terrorism offences.

You are either very ignorant of the deeper issues, or just winding up.

I very much hope that in the future you feel less negatively about the outcomes of the Troubles and more positively about Northern Ireland - which, incidentally, is the happiest part of the UK.

 

[Railops]

No it isn't, and I've just mentioned the Glenanne Gang and the killers of the Miami Showband as two examples.

Three of the leaders of the UVF were also British soldiers.

Plenty more UVF members came from the RUC.

So your answer is you can't supply a list of British soldiers convicted of NI terrorism offences.

 

[DarloRich]

It is like living in a Male Online cartoon on this board at times!

 

[Railops]

You are either very ignorant of the deeper issues, or just winding up.

I very much hope that in the future you feel less negatively about the outcomes of the Troubles and more positively about Northern Ireland - which, incidentally, is the happiest part of the UK.

I am not ignorant at all and not on a wind up but you and others attempting to paint the British security forces in the same light as terrorists is despicable and absolutely wrong.

 

[DarloRich]

I am not ignorant at all and not on a wind up but you and others attempting to paint the British security forces in the same light as terrorists is despicable and absolutely wrong.

do you agree that British armed/security forces colluding with loyalist terror groups and by doing so helping those groups to murder people is wrong and should be condemned?

 

[AlterEgo]

I am not ignorant at all and not on a wind up but you and others attempting to paint the British security forces in the same light as terrorists is despicable and absolutely wrong.

I've repeatedly explained why they shouldn't be viewed in the same light.

I don't think you understand the wider issues underpinning the NI conflict, which are so many and varied I could speak for an hour on them, nor do you seem able to view the subject through any set of eyes than your own.

The vast majority of British soldiers who served in NI did so with even-handedness and distinction. History isn't as black and white as we sometimes like to think.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So your answer is you can't supply a list of British soldiers convicted of NI terrorism offences.

Are you WUMing or are you singularly incapable of understanding simple words?

 

[Railops]

do you agree that British forces colluding with loyalist terror groups and helping those groups to murder people is wrong and should be condemned?

Of course, but people are attempting to equate the tiny amount of misdeeds by the British army as to be equal if not worse then terrorism.
The amount of convictions of members of the British army for offences in Northern Ireland is so infinitesimal as to be virtually meaningless in comparison to the hundreds and hundreds of convicted terrorists.

Unlike a few I support our armed services as they're massively respected all around the world away from the British left wing chattering liberal bubble.

 

[Railops]

Are you WUMing or are you singularly incapable of understanding simple words?

So you admit your accusation of "plenty" of British soldiers being terrorists is rubbish.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Of course, but people are attempting to equate the tiny amount of misdeeds by the British army as to be equal if not worse then terrorism.

The worst single atrocity of the entire Troubles- the Dublin bombings of 1974- were carried out by four serving british soldiers of the Ulster Defence Regiment, with assistance from military intelligence and the RUC.

Stop WUMing.

 

[Johnuk123]

So you admit your accusation of "plenty" of British soldiers being terrorists is rubbish.

You're wasting your time asking as he's made himself look rather silly.

 

[Johnuk123]

The worst single atrocity of the entire Troubles- the Dublin bombings of 1974- were carried out by four serving british soldiers of the Ulster Defence Regiment, with assistance from military intelligence and the RUC.

Stop WUMing.

Why not withdraw your statement of there being plenty of UK soldiers who are terrorists before you dig any deeper.

 

[DarloRich]

Of course, but people are attempting to equate the tiny amount of misdeeds by the British army as to be equal if not worse then terrorism.
The amount of convictions of members of the British army for offences in Northern Ireland is so infinitesimal as to be virtually meaningless in comparison to the hundreds and hundreds of convicted terrorists.

I think you should look into things a bit further. The links between the UDR/RUC and UDA are clear. Murders were carried out either on information supplied by forces personal or by "proxies" in the pay of the security services. You don't seem bothered by that.

Unlike a few I support our armed services as they're massively respected all around the world away from the British left wing chattering liberal bubble.

You seem unable to grasp the issues here and see any suggestion of criticism as a "British left wing chattering liberal bubble" nonsense rather than a desire to see that respect for our armed forces upheld by showing that we hold ourselves to a higher standard than common criminals.


BTW I ( and my family) support our armed forces. A close family member was badly injured in an IED attack in Iraqi and almost died. So please don't tell me we don't support the forces and try and suggest you are somehow better than anyone else

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is like living in a Male Online cartoon on this board at times!

Gaaaaaaaah.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Murders were carried out either on information supplied by forces personal or by "proxies" in the pay of the security services. You don't seem bothered by that.

The fact the worst atrocity of the whole conflict was a multiple car bombing carried out by four serving British soldiers doesn't fit in with his worldview. I understand that. Doesn't stop it being true, though.

The history of Robin "The Jackal" Jackson is fascinating. Robert Nairac too.

 

[Railops]

.....

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course, but people are attempting to equate the tiny amount of misdeeds by the British army as to be equal if not worse then terrorism.
The amount of convictions of members of the British army for offences in Northern Ireland is so infinitesimal as to be virtually meaningless in comparison to the hundreds and hundreds of convicted terrorists.

Unlike a few I support our armed services as they're massively respected all around the world away from the British left wing chattering liberal bubble.

What you're doing is applying the same slide rule analysis to all protagonists and using a body count to try and underline your ethical analysis.

Do you not agree that we ought to hold our own State forces to a higher standard than we do paramilitary groups?

We rightly expect that the Armed Forces will behave in a professional and fair manner. Where they do not, action must be taken. It's when that action isn't taken (see: Bloody Sunday and Widgery Tribunal) that the Armed Forces start falling into disgrace. This in itself sows more trouble than it solves.

 

[Tetchytyke]

We rightly expect that the Armed Forces will behave in a professional and fair manner. Where they do not, action must be taken. It's when that action isn't taken (see: Bloody Sunday and Widgery Tribunal) that the Armed Forces start falling into disgrace. This in itself sows more trouble than it solves.

The problem in Northern Ireland is that action wasn't taken. People like Nairac- who ended up as one of The Disappeared- were protected. Even in a case like the Miami Showband killing in 1975 it was the lowly serving soldiers who were prosecuted and convicted of terrorist murders, even when it was abundantly clear their orders were coming from
much higher up.

Most soldiers in Northern Ireland behaved properly, I also have family who served there. And turning a blind eye to the terrorism from some of their comrades made their job harder and more dangerous.

The UVF was full of people who were serving in the RUC and the British Army. That doesn't mean everyone serving in the RUC and the Army were members of the UVF.

 

[DarloRich]

I actually served in the armed services and reading how apparently we're just as bad as terrorists because we've done the odd bad thing is very sad but I suppose par for the course nowadays with the military being held in such low esteem.

No one suggest that the VAST majority of forces personnel behaved anything other than correctly in NI or elsewhere for that matter.

That makes those who did not (and there were some) even more disgusting. They let down their comrades and they shouldn't enjoy the protection of those people who behaved correctly at all times. They should be rooted out and prosecuted. The behaviour of the majority should not be a free pass for the bad eggs.

For instance, in a period in the 80's the De Silva report ( i know - left wing limped wristed bullpap but all we have to go on) found that about 85% of the intelligence used by loyalist terrorists came from the armed/security services. The Amry themselves found in the early 70's that 5-15% of UDR soldiers were also members of the UDA

That information/knowledge supplied by the bad eggs was used to kill people. Innocent civilians and terrorists alike. That must be a breach of the military code of honour that our forces live by. Surely by breaching that code of behaviour they cease to be soldiers and become common criminals.

 

[Johnuk123]

The fact the worst atrocity of the whole conflict was a multiple car bombing carried out by four serving British soldiers doesn't fit in with his worldview. I understand that. Doesn't stop it being true, though.

The Omagh bombing was by far the worst NI atrocity is that what you're talking about ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Omagh bombing was by far the worst NI atrocity is that what you're talking about ?

Nope. Omagh killed 29 people, the multiple car-bombing in Dublin and Monaghan killed 34.

Not that it's about counting up the bodies.