Caledonian Sleeper discussion

TimboM · 15 Sep 2017

1S26 (Down Lowlander) stopped at Harrow & Wealdstone - been there 40 mins so far. All trains stopped in the area - judging by a photo on Twitter would appear to be a major lineside fire at Headstone Lane.

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tsr · 15 Sep 2017

2K43, 2344 Euston - Milton Keynes Ctl, has apparently ended up trapped between stations for an hour and counting (all other passenger services would appear to be platformed), very near the fire. 1S26 is two signal sections behind, in the nearest platform in rear, on the Down Fast at Harrow & Wealdstone, but it looks like there is basically nowhere either train can go for the time being.

The major fire is suspected to involve gas cylinders, and also according to Twitter, there have been explosions in the fire. The exclusion zone includes the railway.

Blindtraveler · 15 Sep 2017

this does not sound good

TimboM · 15 Sep 2017

Blindtraveler said:
this does not sound good

Nope... 1S26 has been sat at Harrow & Wealdstone for almost 100 mins now - a fair chunk of that without overhead power.
Suspect they'll need to detrain relatively soon - can't see any other option really (unless there's a random shore supply at that station?!)

Couple of other trains plus some freights and ECS also impacted.

TimboM · 15 Sep 2017

1Z99 rescue loco heading to 1S26 now.

Not sure what, might be 66752 taken off 6X41 that's currently parked up in Wembley Yard, but that's a wild guess...

185143 · 15 Sep 2017

Sleeper sent back to Euston with pax told to get the 06:15 or 07:00 VTEC to Edinburgh-according to CS Twitter. What's the plan for the southbound services, where many passengers will be asleep blissfully unaware of the fact that they aren't getting to London?

NRE reporting disruption until end of service today. (Friday)

TimboM · 15 Sep 2017

185143 said:
Sleeper sent back to Euston with pax told to get the 06:15 or 07:00 VTEC to Edinburgh-according to CS Twitter. What's the plan for the southbound services, where many passengers will be asleep blissfully unaware of the fact that they aren't getting to London?

NRE reporting disruption until end of service today. (Friday)

Will depend on what the situation is when they get there in c.3 hours. Disruption could mean stock out of place / delays rather than line totally closed.

It's a big fire though so may not be sorted by 6am, in which case 1M11/1M16 would logically have to terminate short somewhere and onward travel arranged.

There's also the issue that at least one set of stock and staff is in the wrong place for Fri night's service. Currently 3 will be south and only one north.

TimboM · 15 Sep 2017

CS on Twitter advising 1S26 now back in Euston (P1) will act as a hotel for the night prior to the ticket acceptance on the VTEC trains first thing as above.

Will be interesting to know what loco's on the blocks having dragged it back in to Euston.

john.aston.96 · 15 Sep 2017

TimboM said:
CS on Twitter advising 1S26 now back in Euston (P1) will act as a hotel for the night prior to the ticket acceptance on the VTEC trains first thing as above.

Will be interesting to know what loco's on the blocks having dragged it back in to Euston.

66030

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sdrennan · 15 Sep 2017

Looks like up lowlander terminating Milton Keynes but the Up Highlander has terminated at Preston and train ecs back to Polmadie. Balancing stock for tonight to get up north but I would not be happy getting chucked off at 4: 30am in Preston

Failed Unit · 15 Sep 2017

National Rail said it was going to make it to Euston. Was wondering how they would get it to the ECML considering it had left Carlisle. Lots of options of course but making it happen quickly is challenging. Terminating at Milton Keynes much more sensible.

For the stock. Did the north highland make it out?

LeylandLen · 15 Sep 2017

I read that the fire near Harrow reported at 2355. Yes 1S25 Highlander left on time and now nearing destinations. 1S26 lowlander still in platform 1 Euston . Not sure about tonight services as obviously Friday night sleepers usually full .

Bletchleyite · 15 Sep 2017

sdrennan said:
Looks like up lowlander terminating Milton Keynes but the Up Highlander has terminated at Preston and train ecs back to Polmadie. Balancing stock for tonight to get up north but I would not be happy getting chucked off at 4: 30am in Preston

Indeed, I do think they need to find a better way of handling that kind of situation, such as moving it to a station that does have a platform where it can be left for a bit longer.

Welshman · 15 Sep 2017

Bletchleyite said:
Indeed, I do think they need to find a better way of handling that kind of situation, such as moving it to a station that does have a platform where it can be left for a bit longer.

But can you think of a station which has a platform empty for 3 hours or so, and which then also gives easy access to the diversionary routes to other London stations?

Steddenm · 15 Sep 2017

To be fair on CS the fire isn’t their fault. I’m guessing by stopping one at Preston, one at Milton Keynes Central was logistical rather than anything else. If one is at PRE they can get it back to Polmadie for tonight’s service. Same as MKC, although that may be due to capacity issues.

Bletchleyite · 15 Sep 2017

Welshman said:
But can you think of a station which has a platform empty for 3 hours or so, and which then also gives easy access to the diversionary routes to other London stations?

With a seriously cut WCML service (I think they're doing 1tph on each branch to MKC only at present) I reckon you could have kept it a bit longer at Crewe.

TimboM · 15 Sep 2017

Bletchleyite said:
With a seriously cut WCML service (I think they're doing 1tph on each branch to MKC only at present) I reckon you could have kept it a bit longer at Crewe.

Steddenm said:
To be fair on CS the fire isn’t their fault. I’m guessing by stopping one at Preston, one at Milton Keynes Central was logistical rather than anything else. If one is at PRE they can get it back to Polmadie for tonight’s service. Same as MKC, although that may be due to capacity issues.

This will be one of the main reasons for cancelling and turning at Preston. Not least the driver availability to consider. The crew change is at Preston and the driver to take 1M16 forward should have been the 1S26 driver (still stuck in London). The 1M11 Preston-Euston driver however was there and available as 1S25 (which he takes as far as Preston) made it through before the fire.

They'd have to have found someone available who signs 92s and Preston-Crewe in the early hours which isn't easy - and wouldn't have materially improved the situation for the passengers (i.e. still turfed off in the NW first thing nowhere near Euston with on balance no better/worse options for onward travel).

QueensCurve · 15 Sep 2017

185143 said:
Sleeper sent back to Euston with pax told to get the 06:15 or 07:00 VTEC to Edinburgh-according to CS Twitter. What's the plan for the southbound services, where many passengers will be asleep blissfully unaware of the fact that they aren't getting to London?

NRE reporting disruption until end of service today. (Friday)

Could these workings have been diverted via the ECML, which would seem to be more customer friendly?

TimboM · 15 Sep 2017

92010 and the ex-1M11 ECS appear to have been moved into Kings Langley Up Goods Loop after passengers disembarked at MK Central. Presumably one of the first in the queue to get to Wembley depot as and when line re-opens.

92014 has taken ex-1S26 stock back to Wembley from its overnight stay in Euston (emergency drag-back loco 66030 was attached to rear I believe).
87002 has run light engine back to Wembley as not required for ECS duties at Euston.

90042 has taken ex-1M16 ECS as 5S26 back to Polmadie.
92033 has run light engine as 0S26 back to Polmadie from Carstairs as no longer required for 1B26/5B26.

92018 (at Waverley) and Down Highlander portions where they should be.

So only loco/set out of place ahead of preparing for this evening's service currently is 92010 and the ex-1M11 stock in Kings Langley UGL.

PHILIPE · 15 Sep 2017

QueensCurve said:
Could these workings have been diverted via the ECML, which would seem to be more customer friendly?

They'd come too far to be able to divert

TimboM · 15 Sep 2017

QueensCurve said:
Could these workings have been diverted via the ECML, which would seem to be more customer friendly?

Short answer: no

Longer answer - nigh on impossible due to a multitude of factors, including:

- Not all drivers sign ECML
- In addition, extra drivers (who would need to sign 92s/90s and ECML) would be needed for unscheduled crew changes on ECML rather than at Preston
- Emergency track repairs in York/Doncaster had either closed/restricted workings there
- 1M11 was already well on its way when extent of issue identified
- 1S26 was stuck at Harrow & Wealdstone just behind the incident with the power off for the best part of 2 hours. It would have needed to have been dragged back to Wembley and the 92 run-round before then embarking on the going the long way round on the ECML diversion (not withstanding all the issues above) - would've made it to Edinburgh/Glasgow about lunchtime
- Issues around getting the staff/stock back to the Polmadie/Wembley as near to possible as the schedule time to allow enough time to run this evening's services

There'll no doubt be other barriers that made the ECML a no-go.

Failed Unit · 15 Sep 2017

Is the stock cleared to run on any of the following routes.

Carlisle - Newcastle (I know mk3s are here)
Preston - Manchester - Leeds
Nuneaton - Peterborough.

That is of course assuming the are not closed, have trains and staff that can sign the routes on duty.

Mission impossible

TimboM · 15 Sep 2017

Failed Unit said:
Is the stock cleared to run on any of the following routes.

Carlisle - Newcastle (I know mk3s are here)
Preston - Manchester - Leeds
Nuneaton - Peterborough.

That is of course assuming the are not closed, have trains and staff that can sign the routes on duty.

Mission impossible

Definitely impossible with a 90 or 92!! :lol:

...and do the drivers and guards sign those routes - very much doubt it.

QueensCurve · 15 Sep 2017

TimboM said:
Short answer: no

Longer answer - nigh on impossible due to a multitude of factors, including:

- Not all drivers sign ECML
- In addition, extra drivers (who would need to sign 92s/90s and ECML) would be needed for unscheduled crew changes on ECML rather than at Preston
- Emergency track repairs in York/Doncaster had either closed/restricted workings there
- 1M11 was already well on its way when extent of issue identified
- 1S26 was stuck at Harrow & Wealdstone just behind the incident with the power off for the best part of 2 hours. It would have needed to have been dragged back to Wembley and the 92 run-round before then embarking on the going the long way round on the ECML diversion (not withstanding all the issues above) - would've made it to Edinburgh/Glasgow about lunchtime
- Issues around getting the staff/stock back to the Polmadie/Wembley as near to possible as the schedule time to allow enough time to run this evening's services

There'll no doubt be other barriers that made the ECML a no-go.

Many thanks for your detailed reply.

QueensCurve · 15 Sep 2017

Scotrail84 said:
It had a very very good run from Preston to London.

It certainly did.

A question about this: the sets are timed for 80mph, is it possible for them to be authorised to run at 110 when running very late?

aar0 · 15 Sep 2017

You could authorise them I suppose, but a 92 peaks at 87mph I believe, and the coaches can only go up to 100.

TimboM · 15 Sep 2017

QueensCurve said:
It certainly did.

A question about this: the sets are timed for 80mph, is it possible for them to be authorised to run at 110 when running very late?

aar0 is pretty much correct. The max speed they can do when making up time is 100mph.

However, a Class 92's max speed is 87.5mph (140 km/h) vs a Class 90's 110mph so only the 90s can take full advantage of this. (Theoretically the 92s can accelerate quicker as have c.35% more power, although they only use approx. half of their power in normal Sleeper operations otherwise passengers would be thrown out of their bunks

)

The above said, the loco on the service in question that made up the hour+ delay was a 92. As ScotRail84 said, it got a very good run!

syorksdeano · 15 Sep 2017

Has the sleeper ever ran via Sheffield?

Whistler40145 · 15 Sep 2017

syorksdeano said:
Has the sleeper ever ran via Sheffield?

I've never heard of it going via Sheffield, but no doubt someone else will know more about it

AY1975 · 15 Sep 2017

Failed Unit said:
Is the stock cleared to run on any of the following routes.

Carlisle - Newcastle (I know mk3s are here)
Preston - Manchester - Leeds
Nuneaton - Peterborough.

That is of course assuming the are not closed, have trains and staff that can sign the routes on duty.

Mission impossible

Add to that list Settle-Carlisle (Mark 3s have certainly been via the S&C in the past, and I believe the Sleepers have very occasionally been sent that way).

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