Eurostar..What happened?

Spanish stations have mobile luggage scanners and barriers - shouldn't be difficult to have the same setup at selected UK stations for Eurostar services.

Think of the costing....... Maybe you should put your ideas forward to e*. See the reality check response you'll receive.

ivanhoe said:

Low cost flights, although more expensive now, are still good value from the North West and Midlands airports. They are nowhere near the BA fares that existed in the 1990's. Thus there will not be any regional Eurostars for a long time yet.
The main problem anyway is the UK attitude to passport control. Major culture changes are required and I cannot see this hapenning for a long time yet.

Re the Liverpool poster, the train would have stopped at Crewe I believe. Lime Street simply could not handle such a train.

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WestCoast said:

I'd have to agree on that one, people who are based in the South East sometimes fail to appreciate this. You've got to get to London first. If I lived near a Eurostar terminal, I'd take the train to Cologne via Brussels. However, I don't as so you have to factor in the 3+ hours to get to St. Pancras. Plus, airports like Liverpool are nowhere near as slow as Heathrow.

All this talk of air fares rising is true (tax plays a role here), however compared to the fares that existed in the days before EU air deregulation, they are rather cheaper, especially from Northern airports.

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Reading the above posts, IMO there is a place for, e.g. Birmingham to Paris and Manchester to Paris. jonmorris0844 says he would prefer to take the train over flying, and I think families may go for the comfort of having four around a table and not having to worry about getting their children to stay seated when the seatbelt signs are on. And no restrictions on liquids, etc.

The comment about getting to London first, these regional Eurostar services would remove the need - or at least mean getting to your nearest regional Eurostar place. I live near Shrewsbury and I would definitely consider a trip to Paris if there was a direct train from Birmingham New Street - meaning only a train from Shrewsbury to Birmingham New Street and then the Eurostar.

So I would perhaps in this case use the Eurostar where otherwise I wouldn't have done, and perhaps WestCoast above would if a regional Eurostar terminal was near where he lived - so they would get some business they otherwise wouldn't.

Given that cheap flights are not as cheap as they once were, I think the time is perhaps ripe for regional Eurostar.

HS2 would be the best opportunity to push for through services to the continent. A link is planned to HS1 from HS2, but it is a rather poor one. The decrease in journey times possible with the introduction of HS2 might just make services through to Paris viable.

JoeGJ1984 said:

Given that cheap flights are not as cheap as they once were, I think the time is perhaps ripe for regional Eurostar.

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Even if people argue that it isn't now, one day it will be and that might not be THAT long (something for the industry to be thinking of now at least?). HS2 will obviously help too by reducing the time differential even more, but I think we could see demand before then - even for my idea of an early outbound and late inbound train to begin with.

When we get trains that can split (like the German service that splits to go on to Holland and Germany) it becomes even better by offering the ability to have one security check to go through the tunnel and then splitting to Belgium and France.

I suspect that you'd actually find enough business people (and leisure travellers for weekends, going early Saturday morning, back Sunday night) that you'd soon justify a whole train for each destination.

Just to confirm the customs/immigration confusion....

The United Kingdom does not perform exit checks of passports at any port/airport/station unlike most other countries. You don't have to show your passport to anyone British at St Pancras when leaving the country in the same way when leaving the UK via an airport you don't have to show your passport to an official (there are occasional spot checks but rarely), only as a piece of ID for the airline. The checks of passports on outbound journeys from the UK are performed by French immigration regardless of the destination as the first country you arrive in on Eurostar is France and Belgium etc. all are members of the Schenegen agreement and thus, France's checks suffice as in the same way French citizens don't have to show their passports when going to Belgium.

Regarding customs, there is no customs at either Brussels Midi or Gare Du Nord, I've never really understood why but perhaps the Belgian and French authorities aren't as reactionary as ours! There are British customs at St Pancras but there's usually two officers on duty maximum and I've never once seen them pull someone over.

Both passports and customs could be performed on the train with ease, the former in the same format as a ticket check and the latter as an on the spot check by officials pulling over suspicious individuals as the same way they do now.

Security is more of an issue as implementing security at stations across the UK would be a costly and laborious process. I presume security is only an issue for Eurostar because of the length of time the train passes through the tunnel?

Realistically, only cities as far North as Manchester would benefit from a direct link as the plane really batters the Eurostar when it comes to journey times for any further. However, Charles De Gaulle has to be one of the most awful and inaccessible large airport in the Western world, the RER is disgusting and practically a health risk and the older terminals are severly overcrowded. Orly is also disorganised but it's a little easier to get to. As I now live in the South East, I find the Eurostar by far the best way to get to Paris/Brussels and I make over 10 return trips a year but I find reliability/customer service to be poor at times and have considered at times flying Cityjet from City airport to Orly, I once did BA to Paris from Heathrow but never again.

djh1986 said:

Both passports and customs could be performed on the train with ease, the former in the same format as a ticket check and the latter as an on the spot check by officials pulling over suspicious individuals as the same way they do now.

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I'd also suggest that holding sidings be constructed near Calais Frethun and Dollands Moor so a train can be pulled over if the train had to be searched more thoroughly by customs officers with sniffer dogs if required. I understand that this occasionally happens in Europe when the Schengen convention is temporarily suspended - as when international trains entering from Italy were barred from entering France due to the number of Libyan migrants using them.

Security is more of an issue as implementing security at stations across the UK would be a costly and laborious process. I presume security is only an issue for Eurostar because of the length of time the train passes through the tunnel?

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As I've said before, the security in force at stations in Spain like Granada doesn't look that expensive to set up and run. Just a small luggage scanner and a couple of security staff who go into action for a few minutes before the train departs. It would only be worth doing at a handful of stations - say Manchester Piccadilly, Crewe, Birmingham New St and a couple of others depending on what routes are used. Another possibility - if the terrorist situation deteriorates we may see that level of security on domestic trains and coaches so this would cease to be an impediment - though I sincerely hope not.

I can assure you that there are a hell of a lot more security processes and checks that go on behind the scenes.

Have any of you noticed the archways you walk under when you have alighted a E* service at St Pancras? When you come down the travelator to the undercroft and make a u-turn there are the rarely used police desks. You the turn right through archways that you may not have noticed before. These are always active and scan or "sniff" for certain subtances. If detected, or suspected, you will get pulled over. I've seen it happen. Security isn't always visible.

jonmorris0844 said:

Even if people argue that it isn't now, one day it will be and that might not be THAT long (something for the industry to be thinking of now at least?). HS2 will obviously help too by reducing the time differential even more, but I think we could see demand before then - even for my idea of an early outbound and late inbound train to begin with.

When we get trains that can split (like the German service that splits to go on to Holland and Germany) it becomes even better by offering the ability to have one security check to go through the tunnel and then splitting to Belgium and France.

I suspect that you'd actually find enough business people (and leisure travellers for weekends, going early Saturday morning, back Sunday night) that you'd soon justify a whole train for each destination.

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On the infrastructure aspect of course the Nol Eurostar services were planned before HS1 and would have taken the classic route via Kensington Olympia and Tonbridge. Whilst there is a connection from Camden Road on the NLL to HS1. The route to the WCML is not cleared for Eurostars.
The Route to the ECMl requires at least one reversal. This is not really feasible within a 15 min interval all stations service plus of course freight.

I think the reality is that pre HS2, the infrastructure costs required to overcome these difficulties for a handful of services a day are prohibitive.

Anyone who is interested, the provisional times of the Regional Eurostar services were published in the summer 1998 National Rail Timetable, a version of those times is attached.



These tables, Table 353 for Glasgow & Table 354 for Manchester were marked as 'Subject to Confirmation'. Sadly this never arrived.

Bridge189 said:

SNCF lease ends in a couple of months and apparently is not being renewed. I always wondered why Eurostar sold three full length sets to SNCF permanently. Seemed to be shooting any growth possibilities in the foot.

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IIRC They were not sold. As formed the sets were owned by BR (and successors), SNCF and NMBS, the sets were SNCFs to do as they wanted

A bit of an aside, are HS2 planned to use new or existing stations? Because I had the idea that in Birmingham, the plans involve a new station on the site of the old Birmingham Curzon Street station, but that would mean an out of station interchange to anyone wanting to connect onto HS2 from classic lines at the existing main Birmingham stations, which to me seems a bit of a mistake, especially as it would involve people with luggage who would find the out of station interchange to be inconvenient, and so would probably use the existing classic lines to get to London.

But going back to regional Eurostar, I think that HS2 should have a connection to HS1 and then it is perhaps feasible to build in infrastructure in the stations for security-sealed areas, etc. which could pave the way for through European services. And get everything part of Railteam so that one could buy one ticket, for say, Manchester to Frankfurt.

I think that international train travel within Europe is well established; we should get the other main UK cities involved too.

JoeGJ1984 said:

A bit of an aside, are HS2 planned to use new or existing stations? Because I had the idea that in Birmingham, the plans involve a new station on the site of the old Birmingham Curzon Street station, but that would mean an out of station interchange to anyone wanting to connect onto HS2 from classic lines at the existing main Birmingham stations, which to me seems a bit of a mistake, especially as it would involve people with luggage who would find the out of station interchange to be inconvenient, and so would probably use the existing classic lines to get to London.

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HS2 will use new build stations, though I can't see why that would make the service any less attractive for Intercity travellers: HS2s' Curzon Street terminus will be adjacent to Moor Street station and only a couple of hundred metres, mostly under cover, from New Street.

The London terminus will be alongside the "classic" line platforms at Euston, in a similar arrangement to St. Pancras, and there will be a "West Midlands Parkway" style station on the area of land bounded by the junctions between M6 and M42 near Birmingham Airport, linked into the NEC, the Airport and hopefully the existing Birmingham International station by a rapid transit system.

There's a lot of "HS2 will" in posts here - I wouldn't put too much money on HS2 going ahead any time soon.

Regarding the NoL sets... Today's Railways Europe issue 190 reports that SNCF have renewed their lease and they will be re-deployed on the forthcoming Nord pas de Calais TGV services.

Haven't been in work for a while so cannot ask questions.
Guess it wouldn't surprise me though as it's more money in the deep pockets of E*

There seems to be quite a focus on passport/security issues in this thread.

This issue was discussed at length in the 'DB through the tunnel' or whatever it was called thread in international rail.
I recall a few folk saying that passports & security was to much trouble, would take up too much space & DB would never sort it out, etc. however latest news reports indicate that DB are cracking on with planning/building the necesary alterations at Koln HBF, presumably also Frankfurt & Amsterdam.

Given that DB think there is a market to go further afield south of the channel, suggests there is a market for longer overall route distances.

However, I would say there is another factor that hasn't been mentioned here: Reliability & congestion.

E* had a lot of reilability trouble & a lot of bad press running on classics into Waterloo, too many signals failures & other issues due to congested lines with complex / limited paths. Didn't they even get routed towards Victoria with Press on board with their demo train?
Running on a dedicated high speed line has seen massive improvement in reliability for E*.

With this in mind, If I were Eurostar (or DB) I would be very wary of running on GB classic lines again.

I think that is a key factor why HS2 will be a gamechanger for E*/DB NoL running, sad that it wont be for another 15 years though...

However I also think the economics will change a lot before HS2 is open, whether enough to be worth the classic line gamble I dont know.

The Schengen Agreement and Britain out of the Schengen area is relevant to this topic. I am highlighting this, I know very little about Schengen.

Some interesting factsheets about the proposed services here:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HIFYJ1VY

I don't think these were the final proposals though, as there was an e* lounge built at Glasgow for the proposed services, and they distributed timetables showing a daily day service and a daily night service.

I don't think they were ever realistic, even before budget airlines. They were a sop to try and pretend the Chunnel had regional benefits and wasn't SE centric spending that the train companies had to pretend they were trying to follow through, and that the government had to pretend they wanted them to follow through.

There could be a market for it yet..

For example when the otherhalf and myself travel to the UK from Ireland we now always get a BritRail Pass and the ferry.

IIRC the journey from our house in Dublin to Euston Road, London by Bus/ferry and 2 trains was only 1 1/2 hours more that if we had flown. That is taking into account time lost getting to the airport, check-in, waiting on bags etc...

The best bit was we missed the direct pendo from Crewe to Euston as I had to go for a smoke, so ended up getting one that went via Birmingham. And we had 45 mins to kill before we even got on the train at Holyhead!

I personally would rather travel 2 or more hours buy train than ever set foot on a Paraffin Budgie again!!

The Flying Scotsman does Edinburgh-London in only four hours, stopping only at Newcastle, which would be a major source of passengers and wont cost much time as you have to slow right down anyway.

If we route the trains over that ECML-NLL curve (does it run through Drayton Park station? - assuming that the rolling stock would not be out of guage) and then run non stop through to join HS1 in Dagenham over that freight connection, you would probably be looking at close to 6hr30 with check-in for Edinburgh-Paris, assuming that your rolling stock was capable of keeping Eurostar timings when it needs to.

At most I put Edinburgh to Parisb by air at 5hr15 minutes assuming the recommended security and transport timings suggested on the respective airports websites.
Newcastle-Paris might be viable at present but Edinburgh-Paris certainly isn't without some kind of super-APT upgrade project.

Ofcourse the train would source in Glasgow and only stop at Edinburgh and Newcastle and possibly York as they are the only places you could justify setting up a secure platform with the relevent X-ray machines etc that are required even if border checks are performed on the train. If you are not setting up in York you would probably have to build a high speed viaduct over the NRM to allow it to bypass the station at speed as the avoiders dont look set up for high speed running.

Oh and you would probably want another train that would run non stop from Leeds to Paris or if not, some sort of high speed shuttle service Leeds-York that is timed to get people there for booking onto teh southbound service.

How do you fit a non stop eurostar in between a 15 min interval all stations service on the North london Line?
Its a non starter with the current infrastructure.

How feasible would it be to run a couple of services each day in the early morning and late evening, to give people a straight point-to-point service?

During the day, I feel quite relaxed about changing trains. After a certain time in the evening (or in the early morning) I am rather a lot more apprehensive.

People in Kent may be able to pop over to Paris for a few hours for a meeting and return, but I am sure that many others would simply like a nice, easy, safe and relaxed way to get a full day (or full days) work/holiday and would already be seeking to travel early/late. At these times, the peak is over, or yet to fully take hold, so there may be more available paths.

I know the press/rival politicians would call it a pathetic token gesture - but I see it as anything but. Think of the Disneyland Paris trains as an example of how it already works.

JoeGJ1984 said:

......I had the idea that in Birmingham, the plans involve a new station on the site of the old Birmingham Curzon Street station, but that would mean an out of station interchange to anyone wanting to connect onto HS2 from classic lines at the existing main Birmingham stations......

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sprinterguy said:

......HS2s' Curzon Street terminus will be adjacent to Moor Street station and only a couple of hundred metres, mostly under cover, from New Street.

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Sprinterguy is correct. The proposed Curzon St. terminus entrance and station concourse is immediately adjacent to Moor St. station and they will presumably be linked together.
The old Curzon St. station is some way towards the other end of the new HS2 site.

sprinterguy said:

....The London terminus will be alongside the "classic" line platforms at Euston, in a similar arrangement to St. Pancras......

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In the last set of plans to rebuild Euston, the "classic" line platforms were to all disappear and be replaced with a completely new set of platforms built at a lower level, extending under what is currently the present station concourse.
The proposed HS2 platforms were indeed due to go alongside these, again at the new lower level.

I understand the present government has pulled the rug from under this project and have employed Aedas to devise a plan to "tart up" the existing building instead. That seems to have removed the possibility of longer domestic platforms and limits the capacity growth potential by some margin.



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paul1609 said:

How do you fit a non stop eurostar in between a 15 min interval all stations service on the North london Line?
Its a non starter with the current infrastructure.

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Is the infrastructure really that heavily loaded? Aerial photography shows quad track pretty much the entire way.

NLL isn't 4 track? It is Cannonbury - H&L but they are seperate lines.

MCR247 said:

NLL isn't 4 track? It is Cannonbury - H&L but they are seperate lines.

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I guess that is the weakness of using aerial photography for this sort of thing

So the relatively cheap solution is MOAR CROSSOVERS!

Not sure if it counts, but between nottingham and paris, eurostar is cheaper than BMi baby. trabeling at similar times. Admittedly the train takes longer, but when you count in passport control, waiting times the fact that you can take luggage, yet might eb charged by BMI for it, and that you could probably wangle some cheap first class tickets and have MUCH better surroundings than a plane on both journeys

give it a few more years, and those massive eurostars wont be half big enough