backontrack
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Does anyone think that there are any lines or stations that shouldn't have been reopened?
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Lines/stations that shouldn't have been reopened
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GrimsbyPacer
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Rail is very efficient and is part of the national infrastructure so I don't think they'll be many.
route:oxford
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Anyone?
The Vibration Action Group "VAG" have been attacking services on the Alloa line since it opened. DB Shenker and Freightliner are due back on court on the 26th April to appeal a noise and vibration abatement order served by Labour-Conservative coalition run Stirling Council.
https://noisevibrationactiongroup.wordpress.com/
Then there is the minority politcal party in Oxford, that I'm forbidden to mention by name in the forum, that has relentlessly attacked the reopening of a line behind their local leader's multi-million pound home.
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Plenty of lines and stations that should not have closed are still closed.
Some lines and stations that closed have re-opened and and proved their case for re-opening which may not have been there at at the time of closure.
Most lines and stations that closed have no case for re-opening at all.
I can't think of a single re-opened station or line that failed to live up to their re-opening case.
Some lines and stations that closed have re-opened and and proved their case for re-opening which may not have been there at at the time of closure.
Most lines and stations that closed have no case for re-opening at all.
I can't think of a single re-opened station or line that failed to live up to their re-opening case.
Philip Phlopp
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Is the VAG thing still going on ? It's a bit late, given Longannet is shut and no coal trains have operated in three weeks, with every path currently cancelled.
They're also going to be delighted when the electrification bandwagon rolls into town with its Movax kit.
steamybrian
Established Member
Derby- Sinfin branch reopening was a failure..!
New stations to serve Watford and Derby football grounds did not last long.
A regular service between Walsall- Wolverhampton which was introduced many years ago has since been withdrawn.
New stations to serve Watford and Derby football grounds did not last long.
A regular service between Walsall- Wolverhampton which was introduced many years ago has since been withdrawn.
WatcherZero
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Isnt there a freight line just being reopened intended for coal traffic that's now stopped?
thenorthern
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As people have mentioned Sinfin, I would also say Dunston in Gateshead and Bloxwich.
There were a couple of stations in Northern Ireland which were only open for a short time which I think fit the category.
There were a couple of stations in Northern Ireland which were only open for a short time which I think fit the category.
civ-eng-jim
Member
It's used today by fuel trains to serve Rolls Royce. The junction with the mainline and the sidings are all due to be renewed as part of the Derby re-modelling scheme.
It's still there....but the football stadium moved!
tsangpogorge
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My question isn't strictly speaking relevant to the thread title but I've wanted to know this for a long time: Why was the Hope Valley line between Manchester and Sheffield kept open instead of the electrified and presumably faster Woodhead route?
Going back into relative pre-history: the Basingstoke -- Alton branch. Closed in 1917 as a World War I economy measure, with the track lifted and used for, at the time, more urgent purposes. Pressure from local interests caused the new Southern Railway to reopen the line in 1924. Passenger service withdrawn eight years later; part of the line retained for freight, until abandonment in 1936.
A delightful rural line; but one feels that as at mid-1920s, with the burgeoning of road motor transport, the writing would have been on the wall -- the SR should have told the locals to go and boil their heads. At any rate, the disused line served in the 1930s, as a set for various films; including the much-loved comedy Oh, Mr. Porter.
A delightful rural line; but one feels that as at mid-1920s, with the burgeoning of road motor transport, the writing would have been on the wall -- the SR should have told the locals to go and boil their heads. At any rate, the disused line served in the 1930s, as a set for various films; including the much-loved comedy Oh, Mr. Porter.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The flyover over the ECML a few miles north of Doncaster?
Shaftholme
There is a report somewhere that pulled this information out and reviewed rail reopenings against business cases
This is a report into a small Scottish review
http://www.railengineer.uk/2015/11/13/the-business-of-railway-engineering-was-it-worth-it/
If anyone wants a laugh, you can google a thread about the same topic and Yorksrob makes the exact same point in that thread.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2004491&postcount=25
Anyway
Found what I was looking for
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/3932/demand-forecasting-report.pdf
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Oh, please post a link because its not coming up for me.
Anyway, if people keep posting incorrect information, somebody's bound to point it out (again).
Well, the thread doesn't make any mention of the Doncaster flyover, but if every post we make must be assumed to refer to every comparable location whenever it crops up, whether the poster knows about it or not, then I suppose it is a repetition.
Were Nicholas Parsons moderating, you would gain the benefit of the doubt.
Nevertheless, that still doesn't alter the fact that the Doncaster flyover isn't a reopening.
Were Nicholas Parsons moderating, you would gain the benefit of the doubt.
Nevertheless, that still doesn't alter the fact that the Doncaster flyover isn't a reopening.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Rail is very efficient if you are moving hundreds of people at a time.
It's not the answer to every problem, and certainly not in areas of low population density.
Rail should focus on what it does best.
For example, is it better or worse for the environment to have a DMU carrying fifty passengers or have fifty people driving cars? I don't know what the tipping point is, but I think we should focus on high density areas.
It's a good read (I think Pumbaa posted it a while back, and I spent far too long reading it...), quite sobering - given that any thread about re-openings tends to end up with people saying 'BUT WHAT ABOUT EBBW VALE AND ALLOA' (and ignoring some of the more "average" reopening...).
Some of the stations show how random the process is. The "out of town" Newcraighall in Edinburgh got 176 ,975 passengers pa compared to an expected 467,600...
...but the "out of town" Edinburgh Park on the other side of Edinburgh got 382,823 passengers pa compared to an expected 209,619.
Page 21 is well worth a read, as is the graph on page iv.
It also explains the straightforward reasons why Alloa and Ebbw Vale are such outliers, in terms of data:
(i.e. they didn't bother doing accurate assessments for Alloa since the passenger operations were a sweeter for opening the line for freight so that freight could be diverted away from the Forth Bridge - it wasn't built solely for passenger reasons - so they didn't even bother assessing the size of the bus market - something like seven or eight buses an hour to Stirling...
...and the Ebbw Vale figures were based on a proposed service to Newport - before the steel works closed, so the number of people needing to travel out of Ebbw Vale to seek employment significantly increased)
It also provides a lot of detail about the methodology that goes into these things, rather than the "IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME' approach so beloved of many enthusiasts
Some lines/stations have worked well, some lines/stations haven't lived up to expectations. Some proposals for further re-openings seem to have good cases (Ashington, Portishead), some are just pie-in-the-sky fantasy. But, I'll never stop enthusiasts from coming up with their 1960s nostalgia-fests
Have a look at the report quoted above - some interesting examples - e.g. Aylesbury Vale Parkway was expected to get 29,000 passengers but only got 13,066 (i.e. not even half the expected numbers).
I wasn't living in Sheffield at the time, but my understanding is that...
Electrification was a red-herring - it was non-standard and would therefore need replacing anyway (as it was to be replaced on the Glossop branch).
Woodhead used Sheffield Victoria, rather than Sheffield Midland, which brought its own problems
Whilst the intermediate populations of both lines were fairly low (through relatively empty parts of Derbyshire), at least the Hope Valley line served the cement works in Hope.
If you could serve Penistone from Barnsley then there wouldn't be much in the way of "local" passenger service on the Woodhead route (the line is poorly located to serve centres of population at Hillsborough and Stocksbridge).
The Hope Valley line also allowed the line through Bakewell to be closed.
Factor in the cost of maintaining the Woodhead tunnels and the long term future of the freight over Woodhead (Dearne Valley coal etc), and it seems a reasonable decision was taken.
Since the service from Sheffield to Manchester nowadays is only a "fast" service every half hour (taking almost an hour to cover around forty five miles, run by two/three/four coach DMUs) - plus the 1h15m Northern stopper every couple of hours, there's some way to go before we run out of capacity - we could run six/eight coach trains from Sheffield to Manchester much easier than build a second route (via Woodhead).
RichmondCommu
Established Member
The line served a higher population along the route and because of all the freight from the quarries / cement works. The electrification equipment on the Woodhead route and much of the freight traffic (e.g. coal) was dwindling as the coal pits in South Yorkshire began to close.
charley_17/7
Member
The Ramblers' Association made their case to Barbara Castle, given that Edale marks the start of the Pennine Way, it would be a 'huge' loss to those without cars.
So the economy of both Manchester and Sheffield (millions of residents) suffered for the benefit of a few (thousand) recreational walkers, as well as
costing BR millions in constantly having to spend money on Totley Tunnel.
Further details are available from a book: 'Railroaded!: The Battle for Woodhead Pass' by Simon Bain.
Woodhead survived until 1981, as BR actually couldn't cope without it until then.
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RichmondCommu
Established Member
However don't forget the Midland Railway route through the Peak was closed ten years before BR started to plan the closure of the Woodhead route so I don't think the two are connected.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would be surprised if the maintenance of Totley Tunnel costs much more than it would have cost to maintain Woodhead Tunnel, despite the obvious differences in length. Sheffield Victoria was never much of an interchange station which also counted against it in my opinion.
And of course you are choosing to forget all the freight that runs along the Hope Valley route.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
An excellently made posting such as this would look well on the thread that discusses the "aspirational" reopening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
Lets face it if we're struggling to find the money to complete electrification projects on time (e.g. the MML route) where on earth are we going to find the money to reopen rural routes? There isn't a hope in hell of any rural routes reopening in England in my opinion.
randyrippley
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One station that shouldn't have reopened is Heysham Harbour. Ir at least not with its current service. One train a day each way to meet the Manx lunchtime ferry. Nothing for the night service. Totally pointless on its own and hardly cost effective. What they should have done is added extra stations at points in Morecambe and Heysham, then run a proper shuttle service Heysham-Morecambe-Lancaster offering commuter services between the towns and Heysham Power Station
lyndhurst25
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Sugar Loaf Halt is a 1980s reopening and has less than 200 passengers per year.
ac6000cw
Established Member
Exactly, very well put - I agree entirely.
In overall transport terms, it's a bit silly proposing rural re-openings (which cost a relative fortune, and normally need large operating subsidies) when existing cheaper-to-operate rural bus services are being decimated all over the country and the maintenance state of the rural/secondary road network is steadily deteriorating.
notlob.divad
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I agree with the sentiment of that, but I don't think you can have a blanket policy of ruling out reopening short lengths of rural track. Particularly in areas where the road network is under pressure.
People like Trains over buses as they are seen as more dependable. A train says it will get you there at 1207, 9/10 it does what it says, yes you moan when its a bit late but that is because you expect it to run on time.
Bus on the other hand, is in an uncontrolled environment. You have no idea of traffic delays etc etc.
In totally rural environments what you are saying is absolutely true, I wouldn't for example suggest re-opening the line to Keswick, or re-laying Ulverston to Haverthwaite any time soon. (Although I am sure some one has)
But the semi-rural belt, for example the line to Fleetwood as a main service not just heritage, (Even if it was just a 1 car shuttle in the morning and evening peaks) It would be much better than upgrading the A585 to duel carriage way all the way.
Or re-opening the Burscough curves. Instead of upgrading the A570. And my personal bugbear something between St Helens and Widnes. Yes I know they are all NW examples, they happen to be the railways I know. I am sure there are 100s of others examples across the country
We have been so short sighted in the past, lifting the rails in many of these places. Decisions where made when the country looked to the individual to provide everything for themselves. What we have realized is that doesn't work. A few thousand people flitting around in a few thousand cars that then sit around in a car park all day before doing the return, is so wasteful. Not only of the fuel used, but the materials that the vehicle is made of, the land required to park them up all day, etc etc.
I am sure there are examples where a re-opening hasn't lived up to the billing, which are equally balanced by a re-opening that has far outweighed its expectation. But lets not repeat the mistakes of the past. If I had any decision making power in this country, I would safe guard the routes of all abandoned railway line across the country, they can be turned into cycle ways or guided busways, but under no circumstances can any buildings be built on them.
GrimsbyPacer
Established Member
tbtc, I've attached a chart showing how efficient it to move 50 people by cars, bus, Sprinter, & PPM.
The old Sprinter isn't far behind the 14 cars that the 50 are crammed into (as if there wouldn't just be 1 or 2 in each car). I'm sure the train is better as it has other benefits, for people who can't drive especially, and adding the town where it goes to on the map etc, a rail link might not be profitable but it certainly has a positive impact on the local economy and community.
Also the recent Borders Railway shows that rural areas can be successful for rail too, despite what people said. I think new lines are needed to link all towns mentioned on the 2009 ATOC Report, Fleetwood, Louth, Ripon, Portishead, Ashington, etc etc and they would be a success.
The old Sprinter isn't far behind the 14 cars that the 50 are crammed into (as if there wouldn't just be 1 or 2 in each car). I'm sure the train is better as it has other benefits, for people who can't drive especially, and adding the town where it goes to on the map etc, a rail link might not be profitable but it certainly has a positive impact on the local economy and community.
Also the recent Borders Railway shows that rural areas can be successful for rail too, despite what people said. I think new lines are needed to link all towns mentioned on the 2009 ATOC Report, Fleetwood, Louth, Ripon, Portishead, Ashington, etc etc and they would be a success.
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