Wick sleeper idea

matchmaker · 19 Apr 2016

How about this idea?

http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/News/Rail-sleeper-plan-between-Caithness-and-Edinburgh-17042016.htm

From the Joan O'Groats Journal:

Could a rail sleeper service be introduced between Caithness and Edinburgh?

Highland and Islands Strategic Transport Partnership (HITRANS) has discussed with Caledonian Sleeper the possibility of establishing the seven hour service which it claims could boost the economy of the far north and Orkney.

RailUK Forums

Railops · 19 Apr 2016

matchmaker said:
How about this idea?

http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/News/Rail-sleeper-plan-between-Caithness-and-Edinburgh-17042016.htm

From the Joan O'Groats Journal:

Simply not enough potential passengers in Caithness to make this feasible, possibly a few tourists in the summer, nice idea but won't happen.

Steveman · 19 Apr 2016

matchmaker said:
How about this idea?

http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/News/Rail-sleeper-plan-between-Caithness-and-Edinburgh-17042016.htm

From the Joan O'Groats Journal:

Only 40,000 people live in the whole of Caithness and Sutherland so they won't be getting a sleeper.

Agent_c · 19 Apr 2016

Steveman said:
Only 40,000 people live in the whole of Caithness and Sutherland so they won't be getting a sleeper.

I guess this is where its a shame that its no longer part of Scotrail... Could have just slung a sleeper carriage on the back of the sprinter...

TheKnightWho · 19 Apr 2016

Steveman said:
Only 40,000 people live in the whole of Caithness and Sutherland so they won't be getting a sleeper.

Similar numbers live in the Ross, Skye and Lochaber region and yet they get one.

I would have thought that the best solution would be to extend the Inverness sleeper portion, with the timetables rejigged such that the Highland sleeper departs Edinburgh around 1am (and also accepts passengers there), with lots of extra padding added to the timetable.

Blindtraveler · 19 Apr 2016

A formation consisting of 1x SLEP, 1x seated/micro buffet with these being standard seats for local journeys and 1x reclining seats/luggage van/guards office would I think be viable if timings were fitted around both ferry crossings and RailSail offered. Journeys to Orkney are very dificult and this provides an ideal solution

Agent_c · 19 Apr 2016

TheKnightWho said:
Similar numbers live in the Ross, Skye and Lochaber region and yet they get one.

I think though the logistics there are quite different. The Ft Wiliam train also includes Glasgow, and leaves 7-8pm to join the other highlanders, after the work day.

Inverness is about 8-9pm, but inverness-thurso is another 4hrs or so, so you'd be looking at leaving Thurso 4pm-5pm for that to work, and the sleeper train wouldn't get into thurso until around 1pm.

Blindtraveler · 19 Apr 2016

I think it would only viable as a standalone Scottish Domestic service.

najaB · 19 Apr 2016

Agent_c said:
I think though the logistics there are quite different. The Ft Wiliam train also includes Glasgow, and leaves 7-8pm to join the other highlanders, after the work day.

Inverness is about 8-9pm, but inverness-thurso is another 4hrs or so, so you'd be looking at leaving Thurso 4pm-5pm for that to work, and the sleeper train wouldn't get into thurso until around 1pm.

I don't think the proposal was for a London-Caithness sleeper service, but rather a Cathness-Edinburgh service. Leave Thurso/Wick in the evening, and wake up in Edinburgh in the morning and vice-versa.

Agent_c · 19 Apr 2016

najaB said:
I don't think the proposal was for a London-Caithness sleeper service, but rather a Cathness-Edinburgh service. Leave Thurso/Wick in the evening, and wake up in Edinburgh in the morning and vice-versa.

In that case I think its even less viable. The Cale Sleeper relies on businessfolks and MPs/MSPs headed between the two capitals. Having been in Thurso in September last year, I don't think there's really anything there to be enough of a pull to warrant a week-daily service.

Given the FlyBe routes, the day train service, and the Ferry to Orkney from Aberdeen, I think the area has the services the population merits.

Blindtraveler · 19 Apr 2016

Could I maybe fill in a bit of detail here?
Traveling by rail, coach and see, often a combination of both there are a maximum of 2 daytime journey opportunitties via Thurso/Scrabster or Wick/Gills Bay from the Central belt, both taking upwards of 12 hours to and from Orkney. The ferry to and from Aberdeen is not daily for Orkney and in the winter only goes North on Sundays, Thursdays and Saturdays with an extra April to October Tuesday departure. Southbound you have Wedmesdays, Fridays and a seasonal Monday. Its a long crossing often subject to weather and whilst flights are regular they are often to expensive for many.

If a survay was done as to who would use it I think many would provided they had a through ticket for all legs including Port Bus Transfer to their chosem ferry and did not lose any other discounts they have at present.

Sauce: a Wife and friends from Orkney

47271 · 19 Apr 2016

Hmm, this doesn't look too likely a proposition to me. It would help provide an active retirement for some of the mk3 sleepers I suppose.

If CS want to expand their reach, by far their best bet would be to extend the Aberdeen section back to Inverness, in other words two successive departures an hour or so apart, and likewise arrivals in the morning. Extra capacity for Inverness when it's often badly needed so long as bookers don't mind the slightly longer journey, a great service for the towns between the two cities, and no need to worry about about servicing stock in Aberdeen.

Johnuk123 · 19 Apr 2016

47271 said:
Hmm, this doesn't look too likely a proposition to me. It would help provide an active retirement for some of the mk3 sleepers I suppose.

If CS want to expand their reach, by far their best bet would be to extend the Aberdeen section back to Inverness, in other words two successive departures an hour or so apart, and likewise arrivals in the morning. Extra capacity for Inverness when it's often badly needed so long as bookers don't mind the slightly longer journey, a great service for the towns between the two cities, and no need to worry about about servicing stock in Aberdeen.

Good idea that is.

Norther Monkey · 19 Apr 2016

47271 said:
Hmm, this doesn't look too likely a proposition to me. It would help provide an active retirement for some of the mk3 sleepers I suppose.

If CS want to expand their reach, by far their best bet would be to extend the Aberdeen section back to Inverness, in other words two successive departures an hour or so apart, and likewise arrivals in the morning. Extra capacity for Inverness when it's often badly needed so long as bookers don't mind the slightly longer journey, a great service for the towns between the two cities, and no need to worry about about servicing stock in Aberdeen.

Sounds ideal, primarily because, when commuting home to/from the south, it would mean I could be in bed approximately 200m after leaving my house!

Possibly a little tricky finding paths at that time of the morning though.

Blindtraveler · 19 Apr 2016

I think your rite and it would have to take the path of a day train and that woant go down well I fancy.

I wonder if the Proposed new service were to run on alternate days only vut a daily service would sure be better

backontrack · 19 Apr 2016

I think the best way to run such a service would be to extend the Inverness train to Tain, then run south, calling at Fearn, Invergordon, Alness, (Evanton), Dingwall, Conon Bridge, MOO and Beauly. Or we could have another service adding to that from Elgin calling at Forres, Nairn and (Dalcross).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Having looked at the article, it seems to be referring to a sleeper service only between Caithness and Edinburgh, not points south.

Therefore, you could get a service going:

Thurso
Wick
Georgemas Junction
Forsinard
Helmsdale
Brora
Golspie
Rogart
Lairg
Ardgay
Tain
Fearn
Invergordon
Alness
(Evanton)
Dingwall
Conon Bridge
Muir of Ord
Beauly
Inverness
Aviemore
Kingussie
Pitlochry
Perth
Haymarket
Edinburgh Waverley

pretty easily. Trains leave Thurso earlier so that they can have a comparatively longer wait there - Thurso is a bigger market than Wick, so boarding may take longer.

cf111 · 19 Apr 2016

You're going to have to reverse the train at Inverness (then wait for about 5 minutes at Welsh's Bridge if I recall) because there is no access from platforms 5, 6 and 7 which serve the north to the lines south to Perth and east to Aberdeen. Also if this train is serving Wick and Thurso how do you justify the expense of the reversal at Georgemas twice for every single journey? You're probably adding at least 20 minutes with a runaround and waiting for the radio tokens on every jour ey.

I don't see this being a workable idea for a number of reasons, lack of a market being the main one.

backontrack · 19 Apr 2016

Agent_c said:
In that case I think its even less viable. The Cale Sleeper relies on businessfolks and MPs/MSPs headed between the two capitals. Having been in Thurso in September last year, I don't think there's really anything there to be enough of a pull to warrant a week-daily service.

Given the FlyBe routes, the day train service, and the Ferry to Orkney from Aberdeen, I think the area has the services the population merits.

Blindtraveler said:
Could I maybe fill in a bit of detail here?
Traveling by rail, coach and see, often a combination of both there are a maximum of 2 daytime journey opportunitties via Thurso/Scrabster or Wick/Gills Bay from the Central belt, both taking upwards of 12 hours to and from Orkney. The ferry to and from Aberdeen is not daily for Orkney and in the winter only goes North on Sundays, Thursdays and Saturdays with an extra April to October Tuesday departure. Southbound you have Wedmesdays, Fridays and a seasonal Monday. Its a long crossing often subject to weather and whilst flights are regular they are often to expensive for many.

If a survay was done as to who would use it I think many would provided they had a through ticket for all legs including Port Bus Transfer to their chosem ferry and did not lose any other discounts they have at present.

Sauce: a Wife and friends from Orkney

FlyMaybe flights are too expensive. You can fly from Aberdeen to Bangkok more cheaply then you can from Aberdeen to Sumburgh (Shetland). The ferry from Aberdeen only operates to Kirkwall on certain days. Because of this, Caithness remains the main transport hub for Orkney, with ferries from Stromness, St. Margaret's Hope and (seasonally) Burwick arriving into Scrabster, Gills Bay and John O' Groats respectively. The towns of Thurso and Wick have a population of 15,000 between them, with the Easter Ross towns of Dingwall, Tain, Alness, Invergordon, Beauly, Muir of Ord and Dornoch (served by Tain) adding to that number.

cf111 · 19 Apr 2016

backontrack said:
FlyMaybe flights are too expensive. You can fly from Aberdeen to Bangkok more cheaply then you can from Aberdeen to Sumburgh (Shetland). The ferry from Aberdeen only operates to Kirkwall on certain days. Because of this, Caithness remains the main transport hub for Orkney, with ferries from Stromness, St. Margaret's Hope and (seasonally) Burwick arriving into Scrabster, Gills Bay and John O' Groats respectively. The towns of Thurso and Wick have a population of 15,000 between them, with the Easter Ross towns of Dingwall, Tain, Alness, Invergordon, Beauly, Muir of Ord and Dornoch (served by Tain) adding to that number.

For freight, perhaps, but if you have a KW (Orkney and Caithness) or ZE (Shetland) postcode they you qualify for the Air Discount Scheme and get a hefty 40% off any flight you book between your home and Inverness, Glasgow, Aberdeen or Edinburgh as well as onwards on a British Airways codeshare to Heathrow.

47271 · 19 Apr 2016

On the subject of freight, the article also mentions the possibility of the Far North sleeper mixing it with such traffic.

Crackpot I thought, and then I remembered that in the 1980s they ran a container wagon on some of the loco hauled trains on this route. They loaded them with a road crane in Wick I think.

Anyway, containers or no containers, I just can't see there being enough people wanting travel on a nightly basis between Wick and Thurso, and the Helmsdales and Lairgs of this world, and Edinburgh unless the berth prices were very competitive with other modes, and even then I'm not sure. And to be competitive would take a huge subsidy, and then there's the operational challenges such as the reverse at Inverness...

cf111 · 19 Apr 2016

47271 said:
On the subject of freight, the article also mentions the possibility of the Far North sleeper mixing it with such traffic.

Crackpot I thought, and then I remembered that in the 1980s they ran a container wagon on some of the loco hauled trains on this route. They loaded them with a road crane in Wick I think.

Anyway, containers or no containers, I just can't see there being enough people wanting travel on a nightly basis between Wick and Thurso, and the Helmsdales and Lairgs of this world, and Edinburgh unless the berth prices were very competitive with other modes, and even then I'm not sure. And to be competitive would take a huge subsidy, and then there's the operational challenges such as the reverse at Inverness...

There is potential for the FNL to be used more for freight, there's a brand new crane at Georgemas but the only use it has seen (and indeed the reason for its construction) has been nuclear flask traffic from Dounreay and even this is rare.

Blindtraveler · 19 Apr 2016

Id be starting it at Wick if it were me in charge with pax from Thurso or Scrabster transfered by bus

cf111 · 19 Apr 2016

Blindtraveler said:
Id be starting it at Wick if it were me in charge with pax from Thurso or Scrabster transfered by bus

It would make far more sense on an operational level.

Johnuk123 · 20 Apr 2016

cf111 said:
You're going to have to reverse the train at Inverness (then wait for about 5 minutes at Welsh's Bridge if I recall) because there is no access from platforms 5, 6 and 7 which serve the north to the lines south to Perth and east to Aberdeen. Also if this train is serving Wick and Thurso how do you justify the expense of the reversal at Georgemas twice for every single journey? You're probably adding at least 20 minutes with a runaround and waiting for the radio tokens on every jour ey.

I don't see this being a workable idea for a number of reasons, lack of a market being the main one.

Non starter and you're right a lack of a decent market will kill it stone dead unless it was highly subsidised which won't happen.

Agent_c · 20 Apr 2016

backontrack said:
FlyMaybe flights are too expensive. You can fly from Aberdeen to Bangkok more cheaply then you can from Aberdeen to Sumburgh (Shetland).

Why are we comparing Shetland, the talk was Orkney.

In any case, your statement isn't true. I can get you on a flight today to Sumburgh for £214 (FlyBe Direct), one in 7 days for less than £100(FlyBe Direct). Bangkok is just under £493 (Expedia) in 7 days time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

47271 said:
On the subject of freight, the article also mentions the possibility of the Far North sleeper mixing it with such traffic.

Crackpot I thought, and then I remembered that in the 1980s they ran a container wagon on some of the loco hauled trains on this route. They loaded them with a road crane in Wick I think.

Isn't the sleeper still used for Seafood?

najaB · 20 Apr 2016

Agent_c said:
Isn't the sleeper still used for Seafood?

Yes, but just a few crates in the cargo area of the Inverness seated coach.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agent_c said:
In any case, your statement isn't true.

Ah, the pitfalls of logic. There only needs to be one instance where it's cheaper to get to Bangkok for that statement to be true.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

cf111 said:
Blindtraveler said:

Id be starting it at Wick if it were me in charge with pax from Thurso or Scrabster transfered by bus

Click to expand...

It would make far more sense on an operational level.

Even though Thurso would generate more traffic? I'd start it from there and bus the Wick passengers to Georgemas junction.

Agent_c · 20 Apr 2016

I would have thought that as Thurso is (marginally) the bigger town and better suited for the orkney ferry, that would have been the logical option.

backontrack · 20 Apr 2016

Agent_c said:
I would have thought that as Thurso is (marginally) the bigger town and better suited for the orkney ferry, that would have been the logical option.

I agree.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agent_c said:
Why are we comparing Shetland, the talk was Orkney.

In any case, your statement isn't true. I can get you on a flight today to Sumburgh for £214 (FlyBe Direct), one in 7 days for less than £100(FlyBe Direct). Bangkok is just under £493 (Expedia) in 7 days time.

Shetland and Orkney are 'the northern isles'. It shows that the prices are too high.

Here's another example. A return flight between Shetland and Orkney – a distance of just 85 miles – has been priced at more than £154. This is £83 more expensive than a return flight from Lisbon to the Azores, some ten times further in distance at 850 miles.

Agent_c · 20 Apr 2016

backontrack said:
I agree.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Shetland and Orkney are 'the northern isles'. It shows that the prices are too high.

Shetland isn't positioned such that it would have a major advantage from a sleeper service to Thirso/Wick - the subject of the discussion. Orkney is relevant in the sense that the stromness ferry service is regular enough for it to be a viable regular connection.

Here's another example. A return flight between Shetland and Orkney – a distance of just 85 miles – has been priced at more than £154. This is £83 more expensive than a return flight from Lisbon to the Azores, some ten times further in distance at 850 miles.

Which isn't comparable in the least isn't that Economy of scale and taxation environment aren't the same.

Flying a small plane short haul end up being much more expensive than flying one big one long haul per capita. The cruise bit is easy, it's the take offs and landings that add up, plus you need to divide the fixed costs between less passengers.

cf111 · 20 Apr 2016

najaB said:
Yes, but just a few crates in the cargo area of the Inverness seated coach.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah, the pitfalls of logic. There only needs to be one instance where it's cheaper to get to Bangkok for that statement to be true.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Even though Thurso would generate more traffic? I'd start it from there and bus the Wick passengers to Georgemas junction.

You would have to run the locomotive around at Georgemas to access the main line when coming off the Thurso branch, in my head it'd be easier to just run this train from Wick should it ever exist.

The flight prices argument is a fallacy - flights have never been priced on a distance basis. This is why it's cheaper to fly Dublin-Heathrow-New York than Heathrow-New York.

Wick sleeper idea

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