Police Involvement in Ticketing Matters

headshot119 · 25 Aug 2017

Not wishing to derail this thread (I was stupid enough to use my mum's freedom pass and got caught plz help). I thought I'd start up a separate one.

gray1404 said:
Good point Clip, I was assuming they were stopped having exited the system. You are right, it could have been on entry too. I was unable the impression an RPI could only detain someone if they refuse to give their name and address. Once the name and address is given they cannot be detained and do not need to answer any more questions. What's got me with this one is its the first time I've heard of an RPI threaten with police for a search for a ticketing matter. Can they do that? Would the police officer had been able to search under these circumstances as a name and address had been given? I think it is a step too far to be threatened with a search for a ticketing matter.

I can only speak for Merseyrail, but I've witnessed BTP at Green Lane explicitly tell revenue staff they wouldn't get involved in a ticketing matter, and there's nothing they could do, unless the person involved had committed another offence.

On the other hand I've witnessed Civil Police at Bache detain and search a person to retrieve some "Print at Home tickets" (The unofficial kind of Print at Home).

Whether or not you have to stick around if an RPI tells you to I can't comment on.

RailUK Forums

skyhigh · 25 Aug 2017

BTP generally will avoid getting tangled up in simple fare disputes, unless there are other factors involved (such as abuse or assault after a ticket check). For a search to be made, there needs to be a reasonable belief that an offence has been committed.

yorkie · 25 Aug 2017

The only incidents I am aware of that spring to mind are when police time was wasted.

On a recent occasion a passenger was incorrectly told their ticket was not valid for travel in 1st class, and the Guard got BTP to remove that forum member from 1st class. So they can, and do, get involved in that sense, even when the passenger holds a valid ticket (For those wanting to know the ultimate outcome, the Guard was given appropriate training and advice, so hopefully it won't happen with that person again).

I witnessed an incident at Paddington where the police were requested to assist with a GWR ticketing matter, but as the police were not prepared to get involved in ticketing matters, the revenue staff decided to claim that a passenger - who had gone to the Underground station - had a gun. This resulted in a delay to a Bakerloo line service while the passenger was searched.

I'm also aware of an incident involving a notorious individual on the East Coast Main Line who requested BTP assistance, again when the passenger held a valid fare. I don't think the police were happy with that, and the passenger was compensated by the train company.

So I can see why they are reluctant to get involved, sadly.

Shaw S Hunter · 25 Aug 2017

For guards the general advice is to not even think about involving BTP unless the situation has already reached the three fails: failure to present a valid ticket when asked to do so, failure to purchase a suitable ticket when offered the opportunity to do so and failure to provide details of name and address when asked to do so. Only happened to me once: the BTP removed the passenger from my train when the three fails had been clearly demonstrated. I heard no more about it suggesting that the passenger was advised to purchase a ticket and duly did so.

As for someone threatening to ask a police officer to search a suspect I am not sure that such a threat is an offence as such though it might be a little heavy handed. Equally if your job puts you into regular contact with people trying it on and who have no compunction about being dishonest then it might be seen as a reasonable negotiating tactic. I would expect that people employed in such potentially confrontational roles would have a code of practice to follow though judging by the quality of some of the contracted revenue staff it would seem that may not be the case for all of them.

Gareth Marston · 25 Aug 2017

The infamous Euston : Lancaster ticket suspected of joining at Preston case earlier this year involved BTP waiting to apprehend the alleged offender.

matt_world2004 · 25 Aug 2017

yorkie said:
The only incidents I am aware of that spring to mind are when police time was wasted.

On a recent occasion a passenger was incorrectly told their ticket was not valid for travel in 1st class, and the Guard got BTP to remove that forum member from 1st class. So they can, and do, get involved in that sense, even when the passenger holds a valid ticket (For those wanting to know the ultimate outcome, the Guard was given appropriate training and advice, so hopefully it won't happen with that person again).

I witnessed an incident at Paddington where the police were requested to assist with a GWR ticketing matter, but as the police were not prepared to get involved in ticketing matters, the revenue staff decided to claim that a passenger - who had gone to the Underground station - had a gun. This resulted in a delay to a Bakerloo line service while the passenger was searched.

I'm also aware of an incident involving a notorious individual on the East Coast Main Line who requested BTP assistance, again when the passenger held a valid fare. I don't think the police were happy with that, and the passenger was compensated by the train company.

So I can see why they are reluctant to get involved, sadly.

That is really grossly unprofessional of the gwr staff. They committed an offence much worse than an ticketing offence by lying like that. It could have endangered the life of the passenger in question and other passengers on the tube train.

LowLevel · 25 Aug 2017

They will get involved in certain circumstances - for example passengers insistent on trying to board Robin Hood line trains at Nottingham on a Friday or Saturday evening without a ticket are invariably removed by force where required with a zero tolerance measure and either arrested or dumped off the premises as appropriate for their behaviour.

Generally they don't like disputes about validity if a ticket is held though they will get involved in things like forgery or where the person is belligerent or refuses to give their details/gives false details thus preventing the TOC from dealing with it themselves.

I don't like to involve BTP for ticketing issues unless I have no alternative. It's happened to me twice during my whole career - the first one the chap in question threatened my trolley host and the police weren't required in the end as 4 of us effectively pressganged him on to the platform. The second was only when a highly aggressive fare evader had already assaulted some gateline operators and boarded my train having forced the barriers. I intervened to protect the gateline assistant and ended up having to call 999 after he had a go at me and my driver as well - to demonstrate the seriousness of the matter 4 local police turned up within 10 minutes and arrested him and he subsequently tried to attack the police as well.

Guards who call BTP over the slightest ticketing issue are really rather irritating and it offends my professional pride.

Wombat · 25 Aug 2017

headshot119 said:
Whether or not you have to stick around if an RPI tells you to I can't comment on.

I'm interested in the answer to this. I was once questioned by an RPI after tailgating through the barriers at Waterloo (I had a season ticket but decided on the spur of the moment, with a vague idea of maximising throughput at the barrier, to tailgate).

The RPI gave me a lecture and mentioned that he had the authority to seize the ticket, to which I replied that he was welcome to do so if it would expedite matters, as it was the day of the ticket's expiry. That appeared to antagonise him, at which point I started wondering whether or not I had the legal option of wandering off and leaving him with the ticket.

I didn't exercise that notional option and let him finish his lecture, but I'm interested in the legal position. I assume that tailgating while in possession of a valid ticket contravenes a regulation somewhere but am I committing a further infraction if I just walk away while the RPI is in mid-sentence?

(Incidentally, while his pomposity was wildly over-the-top, I was grudgingly impressed by his focus. Can't be easy to detect one instance of tailgating amongst the hordes pouring through multiple barriers during the morning peak).

gray1404 · 26 Aug 2017

WombatDeath said:
I'm interested in the answer to this. I was once questioned by an RPI after tailgating through the barriers at Waterloo (I had a season ticket but decided on the spur of the moment, with a vague idea of maximising throughput at the barrier, to tailgate).

The RPI gave me a lecture and mentioned that he had the authority to seize the ticket, to which I replied that he was welcome to do so if it would expedite matters, as it was the day of the ticket's expiry. That appeared to antagonise him, at which point I started wondering whether or not I had the legal option of wandering off and leaving him with the ticket.

I didn't exercise that notional option and let him finish his lecture, but I'm interested in the legal position. I assume that tailgating while in possession of a valid ticket contravenes a regulation somewhere but am I committing a further infraction if I just walk away while the RPI is in mid-sentence?

(Incidentally, while his pomposity was wildly over-the-top, I was grudgingly impressed by his focus. Can't be easy to detect one instance of tailgating amongst the hordes pouring through multiple barriers during the morning peak).

You should not have tailgated. It is against the railway bylaws to not use a correct ticket barrier in the correct manor.

The RPI was entitled here to: 1. inspect you ticket including asking you to hand it over for further inspection, an instruction which you must comply with. 2. Take your details and report you for breach of the above bylaw (not using the ticket barrier correctly).

I do not believe the ticket could have been retained as it was a valid ticket used for the journey being undertaken. Tailgating however was a very silly idea and just created a situation that wasn't needed. I am glad that the RPI did stop you.

gray1404 · 26 Aug 2017

B088YK said:
How it was is he asked me for my oyster and I showed him mine and not my mum's freedom pass at which point he said he will have to call the police to search me if I don't comply as I got scared I said ok and showed him my mum's freedom pass at which point he grabbed my mum's freedom pass my oyster and my provisional licence and said to follow him to one side where he pulled out the note pad and started taking notes and details he read through the notes and made me sign it which I did to be honest I can't remember if he wrote in the notes that he asked me for the pass and I refused to show the freedom pass at which point he said we will have to call the police to search you
If this is the case do I have any leg to stand on ?
Yes I know it was wrong a horrible mistake on my part but do I have any hope of challenging this ? And yes I was tapping out to leave the station

I have some questions about the same thread that this post was split from.

1. Was the RPI right to threaten with police?
2. Was it correct to take the freedom pass, Oyster card and drivers license in the said way? You could argue the freedom pass and oyster card are property of the railway not the driving licence certain isn't and they are not allowed to take this without express permission. Maybe the RPI asked for the said items from the OP.
3. An RPI cannot make someone sign their notes and certainly should not tell someone they have to. Surely who would have to invite someone.

Now of course we do not know if the OP is telling the truth. They have already proven they are the sort of person who committed ticket fraud and also lied to the RPI when they where found out at first. So it could be that the RPI did not take the items like that and asked for them and invited for the notes to be signed.

Bletchleyite · 26 Aug 2017

matt_world2004 said:
That is really grossly unprofessional of the gwr staff. They committed an offence much worse than an ticketing offence by lying like that. It could have endangered the life of the passenger in question and other passengers on the tube train.

If that is true, I hope the GWR member of staff was sacked for gross misconduct and prosecuted for wasting police time.

farleigh · 26 Aug 2017

" It is against the railway bylaws to not use a correct ticket barrier in the correct manor"

Is that actually a law?

najaB · 26 Aug 2017

farleigh said:
" It is against the railway bylaws to not use a correct ticket barrier in the correct manor"

Is that actually a law?

If you replace 'manor' with 'manner', then yes.

OwlMan · 26 Aug 2017

Yes Byelaw 9 - see below

9. Stations and railway premises
(1) No person shall use any escalator except by standing or walking on it in the direction intended for travel.
(2) Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the barrier in the correct manner.
(3) No person shall open a barrier or any other gate on the railway except where there is a notice indicating that it may be used by him or with permission from an authorised person.
(4) Where there is a notice by an entrance or exit on any part of the railway indicating that it shall be used for entrance or exit only, no person shall enter by the exit or leave by the entrance. No person shall enter or leave by an emergency exit except in an emergency or when directed to do so by an authorised person.
(5) No person shall move, operate or stop any lift or escalator except:
(i) in an emergency by means of equipment on or near which is a notice indicating that it is intended to be used in an emergency;
or
(ii) in case of a lift, by means of any of the controls intended for use by that person.

Wombat · 26 Aug 2017

gray1404 said:
You should not have tailgated. It is against the railway bylaws to not use a correct ticket barrier in the correct manor.

The RPI was entitled here to: 1. inspect you ticket including asking you to hand it over for further inspection, an instruction which you must comply with. 2. Take your details and report you for breach of the above bylaw (not using the ticket barrier correctly).

I do not believe the ticket could have been retained as it was a valid ticket used for the journey being undertaken. Tailgating however was a very silly idea and just created a situation that wasn't needed. I am glad that the RPI did stop you.

Understood, but it's still not clear to me whether I would have committed a further infraction if I'd just walked off leaving him with my ticket. Presumably the answer would be "yes" if he had asked for my details (because walking away would amount to a refusal to provide them), but he hadn't done so.

[.n] · 26 Aug 2017

OwlMan said:
Yes Byelaw 9 - see below

I often have to decide what to do with regard to 9(2) - loads of times when I have a valid ticket (that does not work the ticket gate - not because I've demagnetized it, but because barrier incorrectly rejecting it) - no staff around so its either force a gate to leave [or enter] or tailgate

skyhigh · 26 Aug 2017

My understanding is that whenever barriers are in operation they must be monitored, either in person or remotely in case of emergency. If there's an intercom at the barrier line, you could use that?

Shaw S Hunter · 26 Aug 2017

skyhigh said:
My understanding is that whenever barriers are in operation they must be monitored, either in person or remotely in case of emergency. If there's an intercom at the barrier line, you could use that?

A more likely issue is that a long line of gates is being monitored, albeit on the spot, by just a single member of staff. If that person is dealing with a problem at one gate then they are effectively unavailable to deal with any other problem that may arise elsewhere on the gateline. How common an occurrence this is I do not know but decidedly irritating if you are inconvenienced as a result. The temptation to take matters into your own hands in such circumstances is understandable. Another instance where TOCs may well be taking staff reductions a little too far, though on the other hand having two members of staff instead of one might very well lead to them appearing to be idle for much of the time.

NARobertson · 26 Aug 2017

Indeed, the GWR in particular would benefit its passengers by redeploying some staff from ticket barriers to trains.

On day last week the train I went for was cancelled, at least at Worle. It did in fact run non-stop from Weston-Super-Mare to Bristol because it was so late. So I waited for the next train, a Taunton to Cardiff. Unfortunately due to the previous cancellation this two coach train was full and standing at Worle. I did not get on (I am 65), others did but the conditions must have been unpleasant and unsafe. So I waited another half hour. Worle is an unmanned halt and not a good place to spend an hour but at least it was not raining. When I later got out at Bath there were three men on the ticket barrier. There are usually three on the other side too. A later conversation with a friend more knowledgeable about the GWR than me produced the response 'in August they struggle to run the full timetable because many drivers and guards are on holiday'.

The people at the barriers are underemployed at best. In Germany and Austria there are no barriers at stations and generally there are fewer staff at stations. This is probably part of the reason for the lower fares there. According to a report in the Times last week the cost of rail travel in Germany is about 50% less than in this country, 40% lower in Switzerland and 20% lower in Austria. But given a constant wages bill, more drivers and ticket collectors on trains and fewer staff at barriers would benefit passengers in this country through reducing cancellations. And better satisfied customers would tend to higher ridership and greater railway revenues,

Neil Robertson

Neil Robertson

Fare-Cop · 26 Aug 2017

headshot119 said:
Not wishing to derail this thread (I was stupid enough to use my mum's freedom pass and got caught plz help). I thought I'd start up a separate one.

I can only speak for Merseyrail, but I've witnessed BTP at Green Lane explicitly tell revenue staff they wouldn't get involved in a ticketing matter, and there's nothing they could do, unless the person involved had committed another offence.

On the other hand I've witnessed Civil Police at Bache detain and search a person to retrieve some "Print at Home tickets" (The unofficial kind of Print at Home).

Whether or not you have to stick around if an RPI tells you to I can't comment on.

Superintendent Morgan, the BTP Chief in Wales, has personally instructed his OICs in the need to support revenue protection staff in these matters.

Shaw S Hunter · 27 Aug 2017

NARobertson said:
The people at the barriers are underemployed at best. In Germany and Austria there are no barriers at stations and generally there are fewer staff at stations. This is probably part of the reason for the lower fares there. According to a report in the Times last week the cost of rail travel in Germany is about 50% less than in this country, 40% lower in Switzerland and 20% lower in Austria. But given a constant wages bill, more drivers and ticket collectors on trains and fewer staff at barriers would benefit passengers in this country through reducing cancellations. And better satisfied customers would tend to higher ridership and greater railway revenues,

Neil Robertson

In terms of staffing you will find that many non-metro services around Europe have 2 or more members of staff on board who are all capable of dealing with tickets and other customer service issues. The legal framework in many countries also makes the issue of on-the-spot fines for ticketing irregularities much more likely assisted by the compulsory carrying of ID cards. That does not mean however that there is no fare evasion on the continent...

NARobertson · 27 Aug 2017

In Austria and I believe Germany all ticket collectors are the same: all can issue fines. In Austria about five years ago the standard fine was I believe 65 euros. Ticket machines are superior to those in this country in that tickets can be purchased in advance. Weekly and monthly seasons can also be purchased although you need to be very careful you have set the correct dates. They also accept cash which is not the case around here. There are no ticket barriers. When I go there now I print out my tickets, including those for the Eurostar on A4 paper. These have full details of journey and traveler with a two dimensional bar code on them which ticket inspectors have equipment to read. The tickets are also verified against a credit card you have nominated. In fact, yesterday I received an email reminder from the DB and I renewed my 25% discount DB card after rather an involved procedure to make an international bank transfer. This is also worthwhile as the DB offers discounted Eurostar tickets. I like all the ticket inspectors being the same as it ensures more even treatment of passengers.

Neil Robertson

221129 · 27 Aug 2017

gray1404 said:
I do not believe the ticket could have been retained as it was a valid ticket used for the journey being undertaken.

You would be wrong.

221129 · 27 Aug 2017

NARobertson said:
A later conversation with a friend more knowledgeable about the GWR than me produced the response 'in August they struggle to run the full timetable because many drivers and guards are on holiday'.

Obviously not that knowledgeable.

Indeed, the GWR in particular would benefit its passengers by redeploying some staff from ticket barriers to trains.

On day last week the train I went for was cancelled, at least at Worle. It did in fact run non-stop from Weston-Super-Mare to Bristol because it was so late. So I waited for the next train, a Taunton to Cardiff. Unfortunately due to the previous cancellation this two coach train was full and standing at Worle. I did not get on (I am 65), others did but the conditions must have been unpleasant and unsafe. So I waited another half hour. Worle is an unmanned halt and not a good place to spend an hour but at least it was not raining. When I later got out at Bath there were three men on the ticket barrier. There are usually three on the other side too.

I'm sorry but what is your point here? Just to have a whinge? How would having any more ticket inspectors in there help at all if it was as overcrowded and as dangerous (it wasn't by the way) as you suggest?

NARobertson · 27 Aug 2017

My point is that the higher the proportion of railway staff that are employed in actually running trains the higher the reliability of trains will be: fewer trains cancelled or delayed due to unavailability of staff. On some British railways the number of staff employed on checking tickets is strikingly high. If they ran a good service such high numbers and different types of ticket collectors might be acceptable. But it is not. I do not believe that money recovered from fare dodgers benefits other passengers to any significant extent. The ticket price increases by the RPI rate of inflation on average every year: that is decreed by the Government. It is not even obvious to me that these people increase the income of the railway companies in the long term. They get a bad press by and large, of which there was another example in The Times yesterday (in the financial section). This case involved a 19 year old student girl who had forgotten to renew her railcard. She was apparently threatened by GWR staff at Exeter and in a subsequent letter. She paid a fine but may avoid rail travel in future which will be a far higher financial loss to the railways. Maybe she is a cheat, or maybe she rarely uses a railcard and had simply forgotten to renew. Probably only she really knows which of these possibilities is true. Most businesses are reluctant to accuse their customers of dishonesty unless the facts are unambiguous. Because if they effectively make a false accusation they will have likely lost a customer for good. People who read such press reports are also reminded that the Law seems to be heavily on the side of the railway in such cases. But for those passengers who have paid for their fares it is not obvious that they should be at any legal disadvantage to the railway at all, quite the reverse. It seems that people like this student are effectively expected to prove their innocence. The fact RPI inspectors may have their own axes to grind is also left out of the picture. On what basis do you think their performance is rated in their annual performance appraisals?

Neil Robertson

gray1404 · 27 Aug 2017

221129 said:
You would be wrong.

Why?.

najaB · 27 Aug 2017

gray1404 said:
Why?.

Because all tickets remain property of the TOC/RDG and can be withdrawn at any time. If it still has validity then a receipt must be provided to allow continued travel.

gray1404 · 28 Aug 2017

najaB said:
Because all tickets remain property of the TOC/RDG and can be withdrawn at any time. If it still has validity then a receipt must be provided to allow continued travel.

Yes but despite that it does not mean the ticket can just be withdrawn for no reason or because a staff member feels like it. In practice, there has to be a valid reason for such.

najaB · 28 Aug 2017

gray1404 said:
In practice, there has to be a valid reason for such.

Or, more precisely, the staff member has to believe there is a valid reason to do so.

MichaelAMW · 28 Aug 2017

najaB said:
Or, more precisely, the staff member has to believe there is a valid reason to do so.

It's *reasonably* believe, isn't it? In other words, open to reason, i.e. they should be a position to present a reasoned argument, based on the byelaws, RORA, C of T etc., not just state an arbitrary view that they "believe" there to be a problem.

I was once given a hard time over the route of my ticket, which I had checked to be valid in the routeing guide, by someone who openly admitted they had never heard of the RG. Thay had no basis at all for even questioning me.

Police Involvement in Ticketing Matters

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