Doors on Mk3's

Skimble19 · 24 Jun 2011

junglejames said:
What? NXEA- Comfortable, spacious, pleasant interior.
FGW- Uncomfortable, seems quite cramped, tacky looking interior.
The only Mk3s that come anywhere near the pendys in terms of how bad they are, are the FGW Mk3s.

Just because NXEA have kept the IC70 seats, it doesnt make them bad. The only problems with NXEAs Mk3s is the 1st class, which seems to have received a downgrade. Standard class is fine. Perhaps not maintained well, but the interior design is just fine.
Anyway, going by what you say. I assume i can discount anybody on here that may have a different view to mine?
Cool. All you people on here that like pendys or FGWs Mk3s, you all need help. Im afraid whatever you say from now on must be discounted.
I apologise if this seems harsh, but im just going along with what Jon said.
We must discount anybody that has a different opinion to our own.

Must admit I disagree, this love of IC70 seats is daft.. almost as bad as the amount of people complaining about FGW HST's because of their "ridiculously high backed seats".. Say you were to crash, those seats are far safer for you than the beloved IC70 seats. As for the interior design - do you really think it's fine or are you just trying to prove a point?! Having said that, IC70 seats can look nice.. let's compare:

EMT Standard

EMT First

Wrexham & Shropshire (Chiltern) on the left, NXEA on the right. IMHO the NXEA is by far the worst.

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Peter Mugridge · 24 Jun 2011

But are the high backed FGW seats really safer? after all, in an impact you are going to get an awful lot of faces smashing heavily into the back of the seat in front at quite a velocity...

junglejames · 24 Jun 2011

Skimble19 said:
Must admit I disagree, this love of IC70 seats is daft.. almost as bad as the amount of people complaining about FGW HST's because of their "ridiculously high backed seats".. Say you were to crash, those seats are far safer for you than the beloved IC70 seats. As for the interior design - do you really think it's fine or are you just trying to prove a point?! Having said that, IC70 seats can look nice..

Why is the love of IC70 seats daft. I love IC70 seats because to me they are some of the most comfortable seats going. So, going by your anylysis, liking comfortable seats is daft? OK, I can see where your coming from, yes.
Oh heck, we are back to the crashing again. If i was so scared of crashing i wouldnt be driving, and i wouldnt fly.
I have been told to look at reports before that supposedly criticised IC70s. I read them, and the seats were hardly mentioned.
When there are train crashes every few weeks, and the IC70 seats are shown to be causing numerous deaths, then i will start listening to this argument.
Do you ever travel in the front vehicle of a 125mph MU? At one point anything over 100mph had a big heavy loco in the front. Now you have a little bit of a light vehicle, and nowt else.
So, assuming you would be happy to travel in the leading vehicle of an MU travelling over 100mph, how can you mention how safe seats are?

Now regarding whether i mean what i say about NXEAs Mk3s. If i was trying to prove a point, then i have to mean what i say. If i dont mean it, then im hardly proving any point at all. So yes, of course i mean it.
The day i say pendys are brilliant trains, is the day you know i must be lying out of my back teeth.

LE Greys · 24 Jun 2011

It's not just the comfort, the recliner mechanism of IC-70 first class seats was a much better design, because it used the passenger's weight to assist it rather than going against it, resulting in a smoother operation. Also, for someone of my height (not very tall) the high-back issue does not really come into it, but the seat itself seems to be moulded just right. Soft underneath and a relatively straight back for leaning into. The tray table also happens to be a decent size. Generally, everything since the IC-70 has compromised on some of the best features.

WestCoast · 24 Jun 2011

I don't think the Standard Class IC70s are that comfortable, they are nowhere near as comfortable as some of the 158's seating (Northern units - ex-Transpennine) - very well padded!

jon0844 · 24 Jun 2011

I am sorry if my comment offended, it was referring to someone saying something on a survey - not in this thread.

I am not against IC70 seats.. I sit in them regularly in first class on a 317/1 and they're just fine comfort wise (although some are sagging quite a bit now!). However, the interior of an NXEA Mk3 is (or was, as I haven't been on one for over a year or so) is awful. I happen to think that the interior on a FGW or EC HST is way ahead - even more so than a 390.

The 390 does feel cramped. I felt that even in first class. However it's modern and I am sure most people don't really have much of an opinion either way, as they travel on the train they're sold a ticket for. How many people really chose by TOC, or rolling stock (on services where there's more than one type of train you might get).

If you prefer a 390, it's no good when you want to go to Norwich! A NXEA Mk3 set isn't going to appear on trains going from Paddington etc.

I know you shouldn't think about crashing when travelling by train, given how safe it is, but the fact is that modern trains DO have to comply with tougher regulations.

Skimble19 · 26 Jun 2011

Well said Jon, I agree completely. As for the 317s and their sagging seats - tell me about it! Cushions on the floor seems to be something that's happening a bit more than usual lately too.

Lampshade · 26 Jun 2011

WestCoast said:
I don't think the Standard Class IC70s are that comfortable, they are nowhere near as comfortable as some of the 158's seating (Northern units - ex-Transpennine) - very well padded!

I think the ex-TPE seats are *too* well padded, I like the seat to have some reassuring rigidity to it but being comfortable at the same time - such as the EMT 158 seats (yes I like these) or the 180 seats. I find I sink too low down in the ex-TPE seats, I have knee problems and it's difficult to get up from them, especially from a window seat.

WestCoast · 26 Jun 2011

Lampshade said:
I think the ex-TPE seats are *too* well padded, I like the seat to have some reassuring rigidity to it but being comfortable at the same time - such as the EMT 158 seats (yes I like these) or the 180 seats. I find I sink too low down in the ex-TPE seats, I have knee problems and it's difficult to get up from them, especially from a window seat.

Too well padded makes a change then! :lol:

I am not so keen on the EMT 158 or FGW HST seats (they are the same). They are just a little too high. I like to have a glimpse of what is going on in front!

Having said that, and most will disagree, I have nothing against Desiro (or indeed 180 seats), I find them perfectly adequate.

Yew · 26 Jun 2011

WestCoast said:
Too well padded makes a change then!

I am not so keen on the EMT 158 or FGW HST seats (they are the same). They are just a little too high. I like to have a glimpse of what is going on in front!

Having said that, and most will disagree, I have nothing against Desiro (or indeed 180 seats), I find them perfectly adequate.

The 158 seats are pretty high, gives good priviacy on a medium distance train though, so its not all bad, they are a little hard. but generally they are okay

I like IC70s because of the emt ones, howeber i see some others are looking pretty bad, I would say the main problem with the ic70's is age, some are startin g to squeek quite a lot

junglejames · 26 Jun 2011

WestCoast said:
I don't think the Standard Class IC70s are that comfortable, they are nowhere near as comfortable as some of the 158's seating (Northern units - ex-Transpennine) - very well padded!

Which are the ex TPE ones. The only Northern 158s ive been on recently have looked as if they are well padded, but once you actually sit down, turn out to be quite hard.

Lampshade · 26 Jun 2011

junglejames said:
Which are the ex TPE ones. The only Northern 158s ive been on recently have looked as if they are well padded, but once you actually sit down, turn out to be quite hard.

Only the centre cars on the 158/7s have that seating, usually Caldervale Line services.

WestCoast · 26 Jun 2011

junglejames said:
Which are the ex TPE ones. The only Northern 158s ive been on recently have looked as if they are well padded, but once you actually sit down, turn out to be quite hard.

They are 3 or 2 cars and are ex-Transpennine, picture.

They aren't hard, as other posters have remarked!

Invincibles · 26 Jun 2011

It is of course interesting that the Norwich train used to serve Manchester, and last time I went that way had not changed from the interior that I used to use between Manchester and London (although they did seem to put those extra tall backed seats in it did not feel very different)

So really the comparison there might actually be a relevant one.

However, the pendolino is a good design to me, given the number of safety regulations we have in place. The windows are narrow but perfectly possible to look out of (unless you get a pillar seat, of which there are not that many).

How many times do you see people on an aeroplane shut their window shade? This is the market that is being dealt with now and I think people are actually quite happy to get on with their in "flight" entertainment.

What the survey tells me is that people like lots of space, with big windows and the seats they are used to. This in no way surprises me. Nor, though, as a statistician would it cause me to conclude anything.

yorksrob · 26 Jun 2011

Skimble19 said:
Must admit I disagree, this love of IC70 seats is daft.. almost as bad as the amount of people complaining about FGW HST's because of their "ridiculously high backed seats".. Say you were to crash, those seats are far safer for you than the beloved IC70 seats. As for the interior design - do you really think it's fine or are you just trying to prove a point?!

Not at all. I prefer the IC70 seats because they are more comfortable than all the other train seats in use at the moment (with the exception of the ex-trans pennine 158's). Quite why this is so daft I cannot fathom.

Lampshade · 26 Jun 2011

WestCoast said:
They are 3 or 2 cars and are ex-Transpennine, picture.

They aren't hard, as other posters have remarked!

I'm afraid that's standard Northern 158 seating, the ex-TPE coaches have wood veneer on the tables

junglejames · 26 Jun 2011

WestCoast said:
They are 3 or 2 cars and are ex-Transpennine, picture.

They aren't hard, as other posters have remarked!

Yep, they were the ones i was thinking of. To me they were quite hard once i sat down. I shall have to give them another try though, to ensure i wasnt going mad last time.
Behind the IC70s, the other 'nicely padded' seats are the 159s. They are lovely. Shame about the lack of legroom though!

WestCoast · 26 Jun 2011

junglejames said:
Yep, they were the ones i was thinking of. To me they were quite hard once i sat down. I shall have to give them another try though, to ensure i wasnt going mad last time.
Behind the IC70s, the other 'nicely padded' seats are the 159s. They are lovely. Shame about the lack of legroom though!

I've found some IC70s a bit "springy" and rather "well worn". It does depend on the stock though.

If those padded 158s are "hard", then I dread to think what you would make of ex-Merseytravel Pacers. :lol:

I've sat on the 158s for 3+ hours and I have been very comfortable.

LE Greys · 26 Jun 2011

WestCoast said:
I've found some IC70s a bit "springy" and rather "well worn". It does depend on the stock though.

If those padded 158s are "hard", then I dread to think what you would make of ex-Merseytravel Pacers.

I've sat on the 158s for 3+ hours and I have been very comfortable.

I've sat on them for eight hours in one day, albeit the Scotrail version. Not too bad.

Skimble19 · 30 Jun 2011

According to Chilterns Andy Hamilton (via their twitter page) the majority of their Birmingham services will be using MK3's with power doors by September.. expect to see some soon if that's true!

seventh-heaven · 30 Jun 2011

Skimble19 said:
According to Chilterns Andy Hamilton (via their twitter page) the majority of their Birmingham services will be using MK3's with power doors by September.. expect to see some soon if that's true!

Having read the twitter stuff - not sure how you got that from it! He said that WSMR stock is being fitted with Power Doors but the only refernece to September appears to be the new timetable and wifi - not power doors!

Cherry_Picker · 30 Jun 2011

There should be four 67 & Mark 3 sets on the London - Birmingham runs as of September as far as I am aware. The two existing ones, the set that currently forms the Banbury - London diagram (which is reverting to a DMU as of September) and a new set.
I'm not sure how many services they will form between them, but I would think each set is capable of at least two trips in each direction a day so I wouldnt be surprised if the vast majority of Marylebone to Moor Street services will be loco hauled. The Snow Hill trains will still be 168s.

Skimble19 · 30 Jun 2011

seventh-heaven said:
Having read the twitter stuff - not sure how you got that from it! He said that WSMR stock is being fitted with Power Doors but the only refernece to September appears to be the new timetable and wifi - not power doors!

Apologies, didn't notice the post above the one about the doors was to a different person!!! I would however assume that the new set Cherry_Picker mentions would have Power Doors..

route:oxford · 30 Jun 2011

Cherry_Picker said:
There should be four 67 & Mark 3 sets on the London - Birmingham runs as of September as far as I am aware. The two existing ones, the set that currently forms the Banbury - London diagram (which is reverting to a DMU as of September) and a new set.
I'm not sure how many services they will form between them, but I would think each set is capable of at least two trips in each direction a day so I wouldnt be surprised if the vast majority of Marylebone to Moor Street services will be loco hauled. The Snow Hill trains will still be 168s.

So will that mean there are 5 sets of coaches as of September?

1 rake of "new" power door Mk3s
3 rakes of legacy Mk3s
1 rake at Doncaster undergoing upgrading

Cherry_Picker · 1 Jul 2011

I'm not sure, but that would be the most logical way to assume it is going to happen if the sets are to have power operated doors. All I do know is that there are supposed to be four sets working Moor Street - Marylebone diagrams as of September.

seventh-heaven · 1 Jul 2011

There will be no change to the sets available for traffic in September. THe first set with power doors will not be ready for traffic until at least November.

swt_passenger · 1 Jul 2011

Indeed the track access application I referred to in another recent Chiltern thread points out that 67s and LHCS will not be used from Kidderminster, because of dwell time issues, until power door stock becomes available in 2012...

Operational performance means Class 67 locomotive-hauled trains with slam doors will not operate trains from Kidderminster in the morning peak. This results in one service from Kidderminster remaining with Class 168 stock and operating as a through service linked to a semi-fast train that otherwise would start from further south. Once the Mark 3 coach fleet has sliding plug doors in 2012, this will revert.

That suggests none will be available soon, because it it were, they'd presumably use it where it would overcome these sort of problems first?

Cherry_Picker · 1 Jul 2011

I dont know. Kidderminster - Snow Hill tends to be mostly people who are heading into Birmingham. There are a few London passengers who join at Kidderminster and Stourbridge Junction, but those morning peak trains do tend to shed a lot of passengers at Snow Hill station. It might not be the #1 priority.

I think 67 & mark 3 stock will have to be stabled at Stourbridge this year though. Moor Street is already full and I don't think the company fancy paying for berths at Tyseley if they can help it. There could be at least one (or quite possibly two) ECS movements from Stourbridge to Birmingham as of September.

hick · 2 Jul 2011

2 silver sets in traffic for September plus the Banbury scratch set will still be around for a little bit longer yet. Expect to see the current training set go to the works as soon as it can be released giving two in service and two at the works until next year.

Note the statement in the TAA about Kidderminster in the "morning peak". In the evening there's a limited stop Kidderminster (Warwick Parkway, Solihull, BMO, BSW, Rowley Regis, Stourbridge and Kidderminster) taking 2hrs20 which on current draft diagrams is a loco hauled set that runs ECS back to BMO for overnight stabling. There's no limited stop run between Kidderminster and BSW in the mornings currently and so it'd be a performance risk putting a slam door set out on this run.

Cherry_Picker · 2 Jul 2011

Interesting reading. Though I can't see how a third loco can be stabled at Moor St unless some of the units which are currently stabled there get moved to another location.

Doors on Mk3's

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