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£1.8 billion ETCS King's Cross to Peterborough

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MarkyT

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Lets get a substantial amount of level 2 before we attempt to even try level 3 moving block.... level 2 gets rid of lineside signals anyway.
Potentially very effective at controlling costs on busy wide railways approaching major cities where signal gantries spanning multiple tracks are the only way of ensuring adequate long range sighting, and are extraordinarily expensive. Where small numbers of signals are concerned with long blocks on more rural lines the savings are probably far smaller, as integrated lightweight simple straight post signals are fairly cheap, easy to install and largely maintenance free today.
I mean, when there's no L3 implementation yet it seems a bit advance to suggest it.Also, L2 can have lineside signals as an overlay (Thameslink does this, for example), though obviously this reduces capacity (as you have longer blocks as you're ultimately speed limited by four-aspect signalling).
Importantly on Thameslink they only reduce capacity for the trains that actually use them instead of ETCS. If a train spontaneously loses ETCS/ATO functionality part way through the core, it can be driven out manually under signals in the normal direction as the quickest way to keep traffic flowing. By the time the changeover decision is agreed and made, the train in front will be long gone so the decreased capacity following it will likely not be a problem. If the next train following is ETCS active it will be able to follow the manual train as closely as normal so the service can start to recover. At quiet times off peak a few non-ETCS trains can be scheduled through the core if desired.
As far as I'm aware there has been a requirement in TSI for years now that provisions for easy ETCS installation need to be made in any new stock. Precisely with the idea in mind that retrofitting should be quite straightforward. I don't know exactly when this was introduced but I would expect the 387 to be more recent than that requirement.
387s are definitely 'ETCS ready' This is one reason why they have also been selected for Heathrow Express services. They apparently have the same generation of train management system as Elizabeth Line class 345s from Bombardier, and although they are not currently equipped with the DMI control screen, where and how to fit this has been considered in the cab design.
Of course it would be a monumentally stupid thing to diverge from the existing standard. It would dramatically increase cost as you lose the chance to buy off-the-shelf equipment. That said, this country is no stranger to taking monumentally stupid decisions just to be slightly different...
As for Brexit, I don't think that should have anything to do with ETCS. Countries such as Australia, Libya, Indonesia, Israel or New Zeeland would never even be an accepted candidate for EU membership and yet have introduced ETCS. They chose ETCS because it makes technical and financial sense, nothing to do with politics or EU membership. The only impacts that Brexit may have on ETCS rollout in the UK is that the legal requirement to use ETCS for new routes would not apply any more and that there is no longer EU funding to retrofit stock or routes with ETCS.
The latest train management systems from all manufacturers are effectively designed to be 'natively' ETCS, supporting legacy warning systems like TPWS by emulation in the ETCS computer, with extra plug-in modules as required. While going against the tide would be 'monumentally stupid' as you suggest that doesn't mean UK couldn't design a custom system to replace AWS/TPWS, for instance, on lightly used lines as long as it employs ETCS components and message protocols. The ideas behind ETCS are really a long standing UIC technical project to promote interoperability and common standards rather than the brainchild of the EU, which nevertheless enthusistically adopted and funded development, as it coincided with their wider political and economic aims. Prior to this, most European railways were locked in to their own unique legacy protection systems and often monopoly suppliers of that kit who could effectively charge what they liked and imposed their own own large scale upgrade requirements when they decided unilaterally to stop supporting a particular system. As well as train builders, all signalling manufacturers are now skilled up to deliver ETCS-based systems today. There is simply no other viable show in town.
 
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4-SUB 4732

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Do the 387s also have the capability for retrofitting?

The 365s will almost certainly go somewhere else as as and when the new signalling kicks in.

387s can be made compliant relatively quickly and the C-DAS is already in ready to be plugged into ETCS.
 

Maurice3000

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The latest train management systems from all manufacturers are effectively designed to be 'natively' ETCS, supporting legacy warning systems like TPWS by emulation in the ETCS computer, with extra plug-in modules as required. While going against the tide would be 'monumentally stupid' as you suggest that doesn't mean UK couldn't design a custom system to replace AWS/TPWS, for instance, on lightly used lines as long as it employs ETCS components and message protocols.
I take it you're referring to using 'Specific Transmission Modules (STM)' to interact with custom systems? That's a good shout and could definitely reduce the cost of customisation. You'd basically rely on off-the-shelf ETCS equipment and only the module and equipment stuff would need to differ. You'd still need to manage a way to prevent vendor-locking but at least it would drastically reduce the scope.
 

MarkyT

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I take it you're referring to using 'Specific Transmission Modules (STM)' to interact with custom systems? That's a good shout and could definitely reduce the cost of customisation. You'd basically rely on off-the-shelf ETCS equipment and only the module and equipment stuff would need to differ. You'd still need to manage a way to prevent vendor-locking but at least it would drastically reduce the scope.
That is exactly what I was thinking. The STM approach is already used on new Thameslink trains to emulate UK legacy protection and warning systems within the on board ETCS computer and DMI. I suggest A UK Level 1 Limited Supervision (L1-LS) system using standard ETCS trackside kit rather like SBB (Swiss - note a non EU country) EuroZub/Signum, or Infrabel (Belgian) TBL1+, with a migration path to either full conventional Level 2, or a custom 'regional' fixed block system that could use intermittent radio techniques to eventually get rid of the lineside signals instead of the continuous data radio coverage of the standard levels. In that respect it would be similar to RETB requiring the highest quality radio coverage only at block boundaries or 'token exchange sites'. There's already a Radio infill module or EuroLoop module for updating movement authority locally...
 

Belperpete

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Never mind the unions. It will be VERY interesting to see the appetite for long term financing and assurance of the installation among the quoted signalling suppliers. They will definitely want to supply kit and implement it and will jump at the chance to become the helmsman for the project development. I'm not so sure they'll want to stick around once all that's done to retain direct responsibility for costs arising from equipment faults and maintenance management for the whole system let alone commit to providing legacy spares / components for the whole system in 20+ years time which by then will be technically obsolete. They never have.
Not in this country perhaps, but not unknown elsewhere. Also, don't forget that most of the signalling suppliers are now effectively owned by rolling stock manufacturers, where the supply and maintain model is quite common. Of course, any supply and maintain contract will include an allowance for the costs of dealing with faults, obsolescence, etc. You don't think you'd be getting that for free, did you?

The spec includes the very large carrot of all the deployment to come across the rest of the network, with the implied stick that if you don't apply then you won't get any of that work.

If I were a supplier I would be looking at just how good NR's history has been with partnership-type arrangements, how long have they stuck with the partners. Looked at from that perspective, the arrangement does not look quite so attractive. I would certainly be looking at loading all the costs onto the first few years, as any income later down the line is fraught with risk. Unfortunately NR has a history of changing its mind once the initial development has been done. Any supplier who relies on recouping costs later on would be taking a very big gamble. Who knows if NR is even going to exist in its current form in a couple of year's time, after Mr Grayling's latest review.
 

moggie

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Precisely. I give you the cyclical boom and bust approach to railway infrastructure investment and an unstable political approach to railways for good measure which has pretty much been the MO since 1994 and beyond.
In so far as NR's record on partnership arrangements in the signalling sphere which excludes long term whole system maintenance as these don't exist one can only look at project frameworks which has at best been patchy. While one supplier has undoubtedly benefited in recent years others have seen a rapid increase in resource only to be starved of future works leading to major shedding of staff. Budget reductions imposed by DfT to balance out overspend on unrelated projects have contributed to this. Failure of project to proceed or reductions in scope to fit the bids received within the original financial authority is another area which has created uncertainty of available work. That unfortunately is the reality of UK main line railways.

The Digital Railway industry has made big claims about the ability to significantly improve performance at significantly reduced prices. Kx will, if one ignores the Cambrian project (dated) and Thameslink core which hasn't really got going with it's full scale ETCS operation yet and Heathrow branch (a contributory factor in Crossrail project delay) be one of the first all service UK ETCS operation. It will have a lot of promises riding on it being successful, let alone the first to outsource maintenance AND within Grayling's new dawn track and train structure. That's an awful lot of pioneering activities which must all gel together on a high profile railway operation.
And industry at the current time of bidding still don't know what trade relations / structures will exist between the UK and the European owned supply industry. That of course doesn't all add up to failure. Of course not. But it does collectively add up to high risk on what traditionally have been low margins for suppliers. If they seek to price that risk in are NR able to still afford it (rhetorical)? Just like all complex projects with lot's of novel features they have a tendency to start off swimmingly until late in the day when all those hiding their issues in the hope another party admits defeat first has nowhere else to hide the bad news - and you end up with a Crossrail.

As I say, let's see how they get on in the latest new way of doing complex projects.
 

edwin_m

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hooverboy

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This was the original NR press release.
It isn't yet a fully designed project, and the point of the announcement was to get bids from prospective "partners" to design and deliver the upgrade.
It is also intended that the "partner" (who is very likely to be one of Siemens/Alstom/Hitachi or a consortium) will fund most of it, or at least the signalling component.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...rol-partner-for-route-digital-transformation/


It's another long-term part of the public-private railway that the rail unions so hate.
...the whole signalling system nationwide is due for replacement.
As I've said before GSM-R and variants thereof are antiquated.The below companies are also familiar with FTTC(fibre to cabinet) networks which will be the mainstay of control-lineside-base station-train comms, replacing the old coppers)

700-800MHz LTE-R will be the industry standard globally.Proven technology works up to 450km/h
Several countries already have systems in place(ie south korea)
as for partners, the main players in this field are:

a)nokia siemens networks (likely..proven working system)
b)ericsson( under development..working prototypes but still in production roll-out/acceptance testing)
3)samsung(working product on SK rail...50/50 chance)
d)Hwawei (working product but unlikely due to security concerns)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Looks like 140mph running remains off the agenda, as it would reduce overall capacity on the ECML.
The prospect of HS2 no doubt also plays a part.
 

moggie

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Good RE article. Only goes to show how quickly ETCS technology is adapting together with the comms technology. And for me that's the rub. There's even less chance of engineering the north section beyond Peterborough in the same way as the south given the time periods. That poses interesting dilema's. NRDR make big play (as heard many times before from former railway orgs) that continuity of work for performing teams will play a role and act as a carrot for them to fully engage. But while they're beavering away on ECML south unless they are also able to adapt their product and ability to deliver it to the next 'generation' their competitors will leap ahead, not under the pressure to service a 'live' project while honing their technology development. Those in NRDR outside of project delivery looking for the next leap and no longer focused with such zeal on what is now in delivery will be looking for their next partner. Result. More (and better?) tech but with a project partner engagement strategy once again in tatters.

Or does NRDR stick with and encourage technical and product maturity and seek to consolidate technical gains rather than continue to push the new product boundaries evermore?

Welcome to the new thrusting DR railway, say hello to the old realities.
 
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