£2 fare - but what next?

[Trainman40083]

Interesting article on Route One.net about Safeguard in Guildford who did not take part in the £2 fare. Well worth a read. Yes, what does happen when £2 bus fares go back to normal levels? How will the passengers react?

 

[[.n]]

Interesting article on Route One.net about Safeguard in Guildford who did not take part in the £2 fare. Well worth a read. Yes, what does happen when £2 bus fares go back to normal levels? How will the passengers react?

Well I tried - but the website is awful and couldn't it to work - (or at least what I assume is the website) - can you at least post a link and a summary - thanks

 

[GusB]

The article is here:

'Exceptionally difficult' warning for bus fare increases after £2 cap - routeone

It will be 'exceptionally difficult' for the bus industry in England to increase fare scales at when the £2 cap ends, one operator warns.

www.route-one.net

It will be “exceptionally difficult” for the bus industry in England to return to fare scales at commercial levels when the government-funded £2 cap comes to an end, an independent operator has warned.

Safeguard Coaches runs 11 buses on services in Guildford and Woking and is not part of the scheme. Its Managing Director Andrew Halliday says that while the level of reimbursement was one reason why it chose not to participate, lack of an exit strategy was Safeguard’s primary concern.

Mr Halliday adds that the longer the £2 cap is in play, the more challenging it will be for participating bus operators to return to non-subsidised fare scales should it end. He points to a previous bus war in Guildford where fares were reduced as an indicator of the difficulty in regaining commercially sustainable levels.

“Politically, no party is going to remove the cap scheme in 2024. By the time we are into 2025, how many customers would remember what the fares were before it was introduced?

“An operator cannot say to them ‘but it used to be this much’, particularly where a transient passenger base is considered. Posting notices on buses to tell customers that we are returning to how fares were two or three years ago will not cut it.”

During heavy competition with Arriva in Guildford during 2019, Safeguard’s fares were as low as £1. Since the end of that clash, the independent has gradually raised its maximum single to £2.50, but Mr Halliday points out that doing so was highly challenging.

He adds: “In light of that, we decided that we were not going to do it again at the end of the £2 cap. We spent a long time getting fares back to where they needed to be, and we were not willing to see them reduced and then have the same problem in a future year, where we may have to repeat the exercise.”

Also, a reminder about referring to external sources:

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If referring to an external text-based source, you should put a suitable section of the text in QUOTE tags and provide, as appropriate, details of the source and a relevant comment to promote discussion.

 

[Trainman40083]

The article is here:

'Exceptionally difficult' warning for bus fare increases after £2 cap - routeone

It will be 'exceptionally difficult' for the bus industry in England to increase fare scales at when the £2 cap ends, one operator warns.

www.route-one.net

Also, a reminder about referring to external sources:

Forum Rules

General Rules It is your responsibility to ensure all your contributions to this forum are respectful, appropriate, relevant, legal and accessible. All the rules below apply to all contributions in all areas of the forum, if any content causes you concern, please alert us to it, by reporting...

www.railforums.co.uk

Noted. .Wish I could remember how to link such to the forum. .

 

[K4016td]

To be honest I don't think that the price cap will end anytime soon, I really doubt that the next government which is likely to be Labour will take this away, but even then another reason that this might stay is a surge in pro public transport policies, ahead of these all net-zero pledges.

But in the event of prices going back to normal, those who were relying on the buses before cap will use it anyway as they won't have alternative, majority of pensioners don't pay for public transport anyway, so it will be those people who were attracted as a result of the price cap that may consider going back to their previous mode of transport, especially if owning a car, catching a taxi or taking a faster train would cost more-less the same, as often was the case before the bus price cap was in place.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Interesting article on Route One.net about Safeguard in Guildford who did not take part in the £2 fare. Well worth a read. Yes, what does happen when £2 bus fares go back to normal levels? How will the passengers react?

The article says precisely nothing about how not taking part in the £2 scheme has made any difference to this small local operator other than the boss stating their belief in the free market. So what point were you trying to make?

 

[LUYMun]

The plan was to gradually return to pre-cap single fares by raising the cap to £2.50 before discontinuing it. However, since the government cancelled most of HS2, resulting in the "reallocation" of funding to continue the £2 fare cap, I suspect there will be a downturn in passengers when they realise their usual ticket now costs two/three times as much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much as I'd rather see integrated multimodal fares, I think it's going to be very hard to remove it now because it'd hit the poorest hardest (and to be fair while it doesn't promote integration, two quid for a bus ride on top of a train ride isn't prohibitive). I suspect it'll stay but start increasing by inflation.

 

[Class93]

Regardless of their excellent work to deliver the Guildford BRD last week, that article reeks of total deflection when one might suggest as to why they and another operator (a company named a colour + bus) in the wider NW Surrey area also picked up their ball and walked away, and refused to play. I genuinely hope their intransigence has hit them on footfall and profit.

It is poor sportsmanship and I feel all of these comments have been only made in hindsight and the real reason remains unmentioned.

‘Lack of an exit strategy was Safeguard’s primary concern.’

What? What a fleeting concern when it then goes on to say it’s unlikely to be pulled (especially when operators might actually start turning a profit at a simple fare - it could easily be pushed back onto them as business as usual and everyone is happy. Perish the thought!)

And in almost the same breath says:

‘During heavy competition with Arriva in Guildford during 2019, Safeguard’s fares were as low as £1. Since the end of that clash, the independent has gradually raised its maximum single to £2.50, but Mr Halliday points out that doing so was highly challenging.’

So which is it? Can you run a bus at £1? I would never go as far as to imply anyone has refused to play ball in desiring something else, but there has to be a line between running a public service and making a tidy profit. And be honest about it.

If you can’t run a service at profit, that’s a conversation to have with funding sources. I accept you quite clearly cannot be running a business at a loss but do not make the mistake of looking at gift horse in the mouth.

I do not support almost anything this incumbent government has done but I will absolutely applaud them at the efforts they have made to drive the bus service improvements and this has worked wonders for the country. There are often commentators that run out of time to cover every single new service that is springing up as a result and that will pay huge dividends to social mobility.

The only comment I would suggest is beneficial is the Ticketer - it’s a terribly slow system and the technology must catch up with the pace of change. I’ve often spent a whole five to six minutes at one stop waiting it to drag through - and drivers now try and get around this but selecting final stage, which is utterly terrible for true ridership number data as to where services needs to be improved.

If you made a bad call, take the hit. I hope you are enjoying the £1.25 fares instead, from concessionary passes as opposed to, what quite rightly other operators have had, is a huge surge in passenger numbers. And I wish those operators well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only comment I would suggest is beneficial is the Ticketer - it’s a terribly slow system and the technology must catch up with the pace of change. I’ve often spent a whole five to six minutes at one stop waiting it to drag through - and drivers now try and get around this but selecting final stage, which is utterly terrible for true ridership number data as to where services needs to be improved.

If a flat fare becomes the thing long term, a move to London style "just tap in" (or chuck a known quantity of coins in the tray) would speed things up massively.

A LOT of time is lost conducting transactions at maybe 10-15 seconds per passenger. That's over ten minutes to fully load a decker. I have always been flummoxed that operators seem to disregard that as if it wasn't there. Faster journeys are more attractive and allow lower numbers of vehicles to be used on a route (or make it more resilient).

 

[Cesarcollie]

Regardless of their excellent work to deliver the Guildford BRD last week, that article reeks of total deflection when one might suggest as to why they and another operator (a company named a colour + bus) in the wider NW Surrey area also picked up their ball and walked away, and refused to play. I genuinely hope their intransigence has hit them on footfall and profit.

It is poor sportsmanship and I feel all of these comments have been only made in hindsight and the real reason remains unmentioned.

‘Lack of an exit strategy was Safeguard’s primary concern.’

What? What a fleeting concern when it then goes on to say it’s unlikely to be pulled (especially when operators might actually start turning a profit at a simple fare - it could easily be pushed back onto them as business as usual and everyone is happy. Perish the thought!)

And in almost the same breath says:

‘During heavy competition with Arriva in Guildford during 2019, Safeguard’s fares were as low as £1. Since the end of that clash, the independent has gradually raised its maximum single to £2.50, but Mr Halliday points out that doing so was highly challenging.’

So which is it? Can you run a bus at £1? I would never go as far as to imply anyone has refused to play ball in desiring something else, but there has to be a line between running a public service and making a tidy profit. And be honest about it.

If you can’t run a service at profit, that’s a conversation to have with funding sources. I accept you quite clearly cannot be running a business at a loss but do not make the mistake of looking at gift horse in the mouth.

I do not support almost anything this incumbent government has done but I will absolutely applaud them at the efforts they have made to drive the bus service improvements and this has worked wonders for the country. There are often commentators that run out of time to cover every single new service that is springing up as a result and that will pay huge dividends to social mobility.

The only comment I would suggest is beneficial is the Ticketer - it’s a terribly slow system and the technology must catch up with the pace of change. I’ve often spent a whole five to six minutes at one stop waiting it to drag through - and drivers now try and get around this but selecting final stage, which is utterly terrible for true ridership number data as to where services needs to be improved.

If you made a bad call, take the hit. I hope you are enjoying the £1.25 fares instead, from concessionary passes as opposed to, what quite rightly other operators have had, is a huge surge in passenger numbers. And I wish those operators well.

I‘m not quite sure of the point you’re trying to make….? The £2 fare is voluntary and each operator is offered a fixed sum for the period ahead (seemingly from a random number generator). as a commercial business, each operator must decide whether the scheme works for them……

 

[Class93]

I‘m not quite sure of the point you’re trying to make….? The £2 fare is voluntary and each operator is offered a fixed sum for the period ahead (seemingly from a random number generator). as a commercial business, each operator must decide whether the scheme works for them……

The vast majority of bus operators (large and small) signed up to the scheme, which is in essence, an insurance scheme for them; that, quite clearly appears to be paying significant dividends for a number of them.

You cannot then post an article in hindsight trying to clutch at, what is best, coat tails of an excuse as to why you aren’t within the tent of operators that are doing well, when the answer is fairly obvious.

 

[hst43102]

Regardless of their excellent work to deliver the Guildford BRD last week, that article reeks of total deflection when one might suggest as to why they and another operator (a company named a colour + bus) in the wider NW Surrey area also picked up their ball and walked away, and refused to play. I genuinely hope their intransigence has hit them on footfall and profit.

It is poor sportsmanship and I feel all of these comments have been only made in hindsight and the real reason remains unmentioned.

‘Lack of an exit strategy was Safeguard’s primary concern.’

What? What a fleeting concern when it then goes on to say it’s unlikely to be pulled (especially when operators might actually start turning a profit at a simple fare - it could easily be pushed back onto them as business as usual and everyone is happy. Perish the thought!)

And in almost the same breath says:

‘During heavy competition with Arriva in Guildford during 2019, Safeguard’s fares were as low as £1. Since the end of that clash, the independent has gradually raised its maximum single to £2.50, but Mr Halliday points out that doing so was highly challenging.’

So which is it? Can you run a bus at £1? I would never go as far as to imply anyone has refused to play ball in desiring something else, but there has to be a line between running a public service and making a tidy profit. And be honest about it.

If you can’t run a service at profit, that’s a conversation to have with funding sources. I accept you quite clearly cannot be running a business at a loss but do not make the mistake of looking at gift horse in the mouth.

I do not support almost anything this incumbent government has done but I will absolutely applaud them at the efforts they have made to drive the bus service improvements and this has worked wonders for the country. There are often commentators that run out of time to cover every single new service that is springing up as a result and that will pay huge dividends to social mobility.

The only comment I would suggest is beneficial is the Ticketer - it’s a terribly slow system and the technology must catch up with the pace of change. I’ve often spent a whole five to six minutes at one stop waiting it to drag through - and drivers now try and get around this but selecting final stage, which is utterly terrible for true ridership number data as to where services needs to be improved.

If you made a bad call, take the hit. I hope you are enjoying the £1.25 fares instead, from concessionary passes as opposed to, what quite rightly other operators have had, is a huge surge in passenger numbers. And I wish those operators well.

I doubt that, for a small urban operator like Safeguard, the £2 scheme would have had much of a significant effect on passenger numbers if they did participate, as most fares would be low to begin with (The article quotes that the maximum fare is £2.50) and the most growth on routes since the £2 subsidy have been on longer-distance interurban routes which would have cost £5+ for a ticket pre-£2 scheme. As far as I am aware Safeguard operate no such routes.

 

[stevieinselby]

The impact of ending the fares cap will be vastly different for different operators.
For an operator running suburban services in a local area, it's unlikely to make a huge difference – if Safeguard have a maximum single fare of £2.50 then I doubt many passengers will be bothered about the extra 50p – around here, First York have an all-day ticket for £4.80, so far any passengers making a return journey it's only an extra 80p. Transdev Coastliner, on the other hand, used to charge over £16 for a return from Leeds to Scarbados or Whitby, so passengers will really notice the difference if that goes back up to its old price

And this was always the problem with a flat fare scheme – it helped people travelling in rural areas much more than it helped those travelling within towns and cities – and the exit strategy really hadn't been thought through. And the longer the scheme remains in place, the harder it will be politically to end it. People will resent paying the old fares again, even if they happily paid them before, and patronage is likely to fall. Part of me wonders if the Tories have set it up as a deliberate trap for Labour, although part of me thinks they're not that clever or coordinated...

 

[infobleep]

I doubt that, for a small urban operator like Safeguard, the £2 scheme would have had much of a significant effect on passenger numbers if they did participate, as most fares would be low to begin with (The article quotes that the maximum fare is £2.50) and the most growth on routes since the £2 subsidy have been on longer-distance interurban routes which would have cost £5+ for a ticket pre-£2 scheme. As far as I am aware Safeguard operate no such routes.

I got caught out last year. Teach me for not checking their Web site first.

Google told me buses don't run that often from Guildford Friary Bus station to the Royal Surrey County Hospital. So I walked, as it wouldn't be much slower versus waiting for a bus.

After my appointment, which wasn't at a set time, I went to get a bus, only to find it cost over £2. A return would have only been maybe 20-40p more than the single and they did indeed run more buses than Google claimed. I could have done everything faster had I known.

I did mention this to the driver and said they might want to get someone to look into it. I wonder if they ever did.

 

[Tetchytyke]

For commercial urban stuff there doesn’t need to be much of an exit strategy because fares shouldn’t be higher than £2 (+uplifts for inflation as required). First used to charge £3.80 single from Queensbury to Halifax, a distance of about 3 miles, but their app (when it worked) did offer a flat fare ticket at £2. So there doesn’t need to be an exit strategy- the operator already offered fares at that rate.

For tendered stuff, likewise. Fare revenue only plays a small part in the overall cost of running a tender- if it was making loads of fare revenue it wouldn’t need a tender in the first place. Even for rural tenders this is the case, and if the reduced fare attracts additional customers then it’ll likely be revenue neutral anyway. If one person paying £6 turns into two people paying £2 then, in terms of the cost of running a tendered bus, that’s barely a rounding error.

 

[Typhoon]

Much as I'd rather see integrated multimodal fares, I think it's going to be very hard to remove it now because it'd hit the poorest hardest (and to be fair while it doesn't promote integration, two quid for a bus ride on top of a train ride isn't prohibitive). I suspect it'll stay but start increasing by inflation.

Agree. Based on pure intuition, first increase to £2.50, say start of 2025 (or if it is Labour £2.40 just so they can say the Tories were planning a higher fare). Some (probably many) short journey fares that are less than £2.50 will rise to £2.50. Next increase just over a year later to something like £2.80 - something short of £3. Next increase to £3 or more and short hop fares start to become common again.

 

[ChrisC]

And this was always the problem with a flat fare scheme – it helped people travelling in rural areas much more than it helped those travelling within towns and cities – and the exit strategy really hadn't been thought through. And the longer the scheme remains in place, the harder it will be politically to end it. People will resent paying the old fares again, even if they happily paid them before, and patronage is likely to fall. Part of me wonders if the Tories have set it up as a deliberate trap for Labour, although part of me thinks they're not that clever or coordinated...

Returning to the old fares again also has the problem that the longer the £2 fare or any flat fare remains, the more the original fare may have increased due to inflation and fare rises. It won’t just be going back to the old fare but to an even higher fare. On many rural routes, where single fares to travel just a few miles can be quite expensive, a day ticket for a return journey is often the cheapest option. In my area the day ticket used to be £7.70, which was seen by many as quite expensive for a return trip into town, no more than 7 miles away. That day ticket has now increased to £8.50.

 

[duncombec]

Regardless of their excellent work to deliver the Guildford BRD last week, that article reeks of total deflection when one might suggest as to why they and another operator (a company named a colour + bus) in the wider NW Surrey area also picked up their ball and walked away, and refused to play. I genuinely hope their intransigence has hit them on footfall and profit.

I doubt it has hit them in any way, judging from the amount of passengers they seemed to be carrying (on normal services, not the "BRD", which I presume is short for "Bus Running Day" services).

‘Lack of an exit strategy was Safeguard’s primary concern.’

What? What a fleeting concern when it then goes on to say it’s unlikely to be pulled (especially when operators might actually start turning a profit at a simple fare - it could easily be pushed back onto them as business as usual and everyone is happy. Perish the thought!)

The same concerns were expressed very publicly by Delaine, at the Omnibus Society Presidential Address, and I suspect others and elsewhere too. They are not unique to Safeguard. It has also become noteworthy there isn't even a continuation strategy, let alone an exit strategy. At least the energy price cap has a set of parameters to guide it!

And in almost the same breath says:

‘During heavy competition with Arriva in Guildford during 2019, Safeguard’s fares were as low as £1. Since the end of that clash, the independent has gradually raised its maximum single to £2.50, but Mr Halliday points out that doing so was highly challenging.’

So which is it? Can you run a bus at £1? I would never go as far as to imply anyone has refused to play ball in desiring something else, but there has to be a line between running a public service and making a tidy profit. And be honest about it.

The industry was in a very different place in 2019, and I don't think you can compare then and now. Also worth pointing out that the Arriva/Safeguard battle in Guildford is possibly the only one in recent years where not only has the big company taken on the independent and lost, it also lost its own route in the independent's retaliation!

And bear in mind the £2 cap was due to rise to £2.50 anyway before some more money was found down the back of the HS2 cancellation sofa, Safeguard's maximum fare is hardly worth complaining about. As Safeguard only seem to have two fares above £2 anyway (£2.20 and £2.50), we would hardly be talking about sums to make the owners rich even if they had joined the scheme. Probably more hassle than it was truly worth!

If you can’t run a service at profit, that’s a conversation to have with funding sources. I accept you quite clearly cannot be running a business at a loss but do not make the mistake of looking at gift horse in the mouth.

What "funding sources"? Is the £2 cap a "gift horse", or a potentially poisoned chalice? Or are you expecting the government to make public that they have withdrawn funding for the £2 fare cap as the period of support has come to an end? Rather more likely they'll just withdraw funding and leave the big nasty bus operators to take the flak, no?

I do not support almost anything this incumbent government has done but I will absolutely applaud them at the efforts they have made to drive the bus service improvements and this has worked wonders for the country. There are often commentators that run out of time to cover every single new service that is springing up as a result and that will pay huge dividends to social mobility.

They could arguably do a lot more to improve bus services if the funding wasn't strangled in red tape, and reimbursement for both fare cap and concessionary schemes reflected the true cost of provision, with extra funding on top for improvements. Oh, and why exactly are bus operators still paying duty on fuel that they then get partially rebated on if we truly aim to improve public transport?

I‘m not quite sure of the point you’re trying to make….? The £2 fare is voluntary and each operator is offered a fixed sum for the period ahead (seemingly from a random number generator). as a commercial business, each operator must decide whether the scheme works for them……

Exactly. I understand the remuneration is based on a complex basket of fares (much like, but different to, concessionary fare reimbursement) and estimates of how many people would transfer from other types of fare as a result. It certainly isn't "sign up and we'll refund the difference over your usual fares". With a cynical hat on, why would I suspect that if you get your calculations wrong to the government's benefit the answer would be "hard cheese", but if you get the calculations wrong to your benefit there would be a repayment requirement, either directly or via a lower payment at the next negotiation?

The vast majority of bus operators (large and small) signed up to the scheme, which is in essence, an insurance scheme for them; that, quite clearly appears to be paying significant dividends for a number of them.

Are they? Perhaps you live in an area where the local authority has funded £2 fares for smaller operators or tendered services. In my county, one single non-group company is signed up, and a second has declined to continue (although as their main business is school services, not entirely sure how they were in it to start with). Another operator is only signed up for the single return journeys they operate on a service otherwise provided commercially by a group operator to make things easier for passengers.

You cannot then post an article in hindsight trying to clutch at, what is best, coat tails of an excuse as to why you aren’t within the tent of operators that are doing well, when the answer is fairly obvious.

Are operators doing well from the scheme? Are the fare rises across the board for tickets not included in the scheme, particularly period tickets, to ensure their "basket" for the calculation is worth their while just coincidence? Are they claiming everything is going to plan so the government doesn't change the formula for the worse in future rounds if they aren't seen to be grateful enough?

Google told me buses don't run that often from Guildford Friary Bus station to the Royal Surrey County Hospital. So I walked, as it wouldn't be much slower versus waiting for a bus.

After my appointment, which wasn't at a set time, I went to get a bus, only to find it cost over £2. A return would have only been maybe 20-40p more than the single and they did indeed run more buses than Google claimed. I could have done everything faster had I known.

I did mention this to the driver and said they might want to get someone to look into it. I wonder if they ever did.

7 buses an hour across Stagecoach and Safeguard Monday to Saturday daytimes "not that often"? Maidstone Town Centre to Maidstone Hospital has just a half-hourly service, and a lot further to walk! I doubt the driver would have remembered your comment by the end of his shift, let alone gone rushing to management to correct Google, when their own website and presumably Bus Open Data submissions were correct.
I've also made similar errors in my time, and certainly those less well-versed in bus travel will have too, but it's also not really the bus company's responsibility to take responsibility of our failure to research correctly, any more than it would be the AA or RAC's to get us out of trouble if we'd set off on a car journey improperly prepared.

 

[Ken H]

How does the £2 scheme work for very long routes? I am thinking Newcastle-Carlisle, Keswick - Lancaster, Lancaster , Skipton and Leeds - Scarborough/Whitby. The fares for end to end journeys must have been well over £2.

Also bear in mind that baby boomers are getting to age 66 now. So a whole load of bus revenue will transfer to granny passes. 1956 was a year with lots of babies. They are 67/68 now, so there are loads who will never pay for a bus again.

 

[infobleep]

7 buses an hour across Stagecoach and Safeguard Monday to Saturday daytimes "not that often"? Maidstone Town Centre to Maidstone Hospital has just a half-hourly service, and a lot further to walk! I doubt the driver would have remembered your comment by the end of his shift, let alone gone rushing to management to correct Google, when their own website and presumably Bus Open Data submissions were correct.
I've also made similar errors in my time, and certainly those less well-versed in bus travel will have too, but it's also not really the bus company's responsibility to take responsibility of our failure to research correctly, any more than it would be the AA or RAC's to get us out of trouble if we'd set off on a car journey improperly prepared.

I was using Google Maps to tell me how often buses ran and at the point I finished my pilates class, there wouldn't be one for maybe 20 minutes and it would be almost as fast to walk.

I went with what Google Maps said in this case and walked. Good exercise.

People may not like Google Maps but it exists and people use it. I don't know whose fault it is, that buses were missing.

I don't know if it was a Google fault or something else but if I worked at such a company as Sadeguard, I would want to ask Google to correct the data and if they wouldn't, publise the fact Google is not fixing their systems.

Google Maps is used by milli9ns of people. It can't be ignored.

Well it can be but it will encourage people to not use the company's bus services.

Of course if you publise Google is rubbish, if they are at fault, at least you have tried to make your customers aware

 

[miklcct]

And this was always the problem with a flat fare scheme – it helped people travelling in rural areas much more than it helped those travelling within towns and cities – and the exit strategy really hadn't been thought through. And the longer the scheme remains in place, the harder it will be politically to end it. People will resent paying the old fares again, even if they happily paid them before, and patronage is likely to fall. Part of me wonders if the Tories have set it up as a deliberate trap for Labour, although part of me thinks they're not that clever or coordinated...

So this is actually a good policy in levelling up rural areas. Rural buses are never profitable and always require subsidy to run, and by offering affordable buses, rural communities can avoid getting isolated.

 

[Xavi]

Odds on a commitment to keep the £2 fare will be in all manifestos. A good thing IMO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Odds on a commitment to keep the £2 fare will be in all manifestos. A good thing IMO.

I think it needs to have an annual inflationary (RPI I guess, rounded to the nearest 10p increment) increase, and also have more structure behind how it is reimbursed (which could be tied in with how passes are reimbursed). Ideally this should not be based on the exact journey made, as being able to do "tap in only" like in London is of massive benefit to operating speeds, but rather some sort of survey based thing or based on assumptions (e.g. if someone touches in on the same route at A and later at B they probably made a return journey between the two).

 

[infobleep]

I think it needs to have an annual inflationary (RPI I guess, rounded to the nearest 10p increment) increase, and also have more structure behind how it is reimbursed (which could be tied in with how passes are reimbursed). Ideally this should not be based on the exact journey made, as being able to do "tap in only" like in London is of massive benefit to operating speeds, but rather some sort of survey based thing or based on assumptions (e.g. if someone touches in on the same route at A and later at B they probably made a return journey between the two).

A hopper fare might encourage more bus usage.

For example for some journeys it is faster to take a bus into Guildford town centre and a bus out, rather than stay on a single bus, the long way round. However, only the long way round bus is valid for one ticket.

I came across this issue back in 2011.

I find once I start walking, there is a tenancy to just continue. It is at least good for my health, as well as my wallet.

 

[Trainman40083]

A hopper fare might encourage more bus usage.

For example for some journeys it is faster to take a bus into Guildford town centre and a bus out, rather than stay on a single bus, the long way round. However, only the long way round bus is valid for one ticket.

I came across this issue back in 2011.

I find once I start walking, there is a tenancy to just continue. It is at least good for my health, as well as my wallet.

Yep, despite the £2 I started walking too, saving lots of £2 fares.

 

[Kite159]

Odds on a commitment to keep the £2 fare will be in all manifestos. A good thing IMO.

It will be interesting to see what might happen if Labour gets into power, considering the £2 fare scheme doesn't exist in Wales (controlled by Labour). Will they pledge to extend the scheme to Wales?

 

[stevieinselby]

How does the £2 scheme work for very long routes? I am thinking Newcastle-Carlisle, Keswick - Lancaster, Lancaster , Skipton and Leeds - Scarborough/Whitby. The fares for end to end journeys must have been well over £2.

Also bear in mind that baby boomers are getting to age 66 now. So a whole load of bus revenue will transfer to granny passes. 1956 was a year with lots of babies. They are 67/68 now, so there are loads who will never pay for a bus again.

Yes, a return fare from Leeds to Scarborough was north of £16.
The grant payment from DfT is intended to take into account a whole range of factors including ridership, average fares paid and likelihood of passenger growth when calculating how much each bus company will be out of pocket - so the payments for an operator running a lot of long-distance routes will look very different from one that just has local urban services.

 

[820KDV]

This is a topic which occupies us at work, especially as we write the 2024 update to our Bus Service Improvement Plan (BSIP) where it asks about such things.

Someone here suggested that most town bus fares should be under £2.50 even without a cap, and for our towns I'd agree. Indeed as almost all are council supported we could probably achieve that. But I'm not so sure that the inter-urban routes have similar fares for their "in town" sections, and as they are commercial we could only ask. Certainly something to consider though. Our city, with a dominate operator and a commercial network had rather higher fares, pre-cap, so intervention there would be harder, and more costly.

The same post suggested that a £2.50 rural fare would increase rural mobility, and again I agree. Where its a supported route, and if its into the nearest town I could see we might be able to make a good case, although I'm not sure our councillors would find a way to make up the revenue shortfall - someone has to pay after all.

That post didn't mention the longer inter-urban routes, where fares are higher due to distance and passengers are travelling around about 10 miles to a larger town. We're not talking £16 return Leeds - Scarborough types here, but still commercial, fairly frequent routes where a return is probably around £9 (often sold as that operators day ticket). What should we say £3.00? £3.50 each way? Bit of a jump from £2.00, but still better than it was. These are the routes we see good growth on, and where we want to invest in better bus stops to help that growth. We're also using BSIP2 (formerly BSIP+) funding to increase frequencies on some, but it would be hard to argue "rural connectivity" on most of them, and they are commercial so the operator would be looking for something at least as good as the current scheme. Those are the tricky ones.

Equally tricky, how can the council justify capped fares on "rural" routes but not on inter-urbans? "Why should I pay more just because of where I live?" would be the cry, especially when the inter-urbans have the best hope of achieving modal shift and a reduction in congestion and pollution both of which the council wants to achieve.

Answers on a Post Card please, and we'll use the best one in our BSIP!

 

[miklcct]

That post didn't mention the longer inter-urban routes, where fares are higher due to distance and passengers are travelling around about 10 miles to a larger town. We're not talking £16 return Leeds - Scarborough types here, but still commercial, fairly frequent routes where a return is probably around £9 (often sold as that operators day ticket). What should we say £3.00? £3.50 each way? Bit of a jump from £2.00, but still better than it was. These are the routes we see good growth on, and where we want to invest in better bus stops to help that growth. We're also using BSIP2 (formerly BSIP+) funding to increase frequencies on some, but it would be hard to argue "rural connectivity" on most of them, and they are commercial so the operator would be looking for something at least as good as the current scheme. Those are the tricky ones.

Equally tricky, how can the council justify capped fares on "rural" routes but not on inter-urbans? "Why should I pay more just because of where I live?" would be the cry, especially when the inter-urbans have the best hope of achieving modal shift and a reduction in congestion and pollution both of which the council wants to achieve.

The main distinction between rural and interurban routes can be whether the route runs on rural roads stopping at every village, or if the route runs on a motorway, or a similar dual carriageway, with minimal intermediate stops only in major towns (there can also be hybrids as well - for example, the X3 between Ringwood and Salisbury is predominantly rural, but between Ringwood and Bournemouth, it is a typical interurban).