£2 fare - but what next?

[Class93]

This is a topic which occupies us at work, especially as we write the 2024 update to our Bus Service Improvement Plan (BSIP) where it asks about such things.

Someone here suggested that most town bus fares should be under £2.50 even without a cap, and for our towns I'd agree. Indeed as almost all are council supported we could probably achieve that. But I'm not so sure that the inter-urban routes have similar fares for their "in town" sections, and as they are commercial we could only ask. Certainly something to consider though. Our city, with a dominate operator and a commercial network had rather higher fares, pre-cap, so intervention there would be harder, and more costly.

The same post suggested that a £2.50 rural fare would increase rural mobility, and again I agree. Where its a supported route, and if its into the nearest town I could see we might be able to make a good case, although I'm not sure our councillors would find a way to make up the revenue shortfall - someone has to pay after all.

That post didn't mention the longer inter-urban routes, where fares are higher due to distance and passengers are travelling around about 10 miles to a larger town. We're not talking £16 return Leeds - Scarborough types here, but still commercial, fairly frequent routes where a return is probably around £9 (often sold as that operators day ticket). What should we say £3.00? £3.50 each way? Bit of a jump from £2.00, but still better than it was. These are the routes we see good growth on, and where we want to invest in better bus stops to help that growth. We're also using BSIP2 (formerly BSIP+) funding to increase frequencies on some, but it would be hard to argue "rural connectivity" on most of them, and they are commercial so the operator would be looking for something at least as good as the current scheme. Those are the tricky ones.

Equally tricky, how can the council justify capped fares on "rural" routes but not on inter-urbans? "Why should I pay more just because of where I live?" would be the cry, especially when the inter-urbans have the best hope of achieving modal shift and a reduction in congestion and pollution both of which the council wants to achieve.

Answers on a Post Card please, and we'll use the best one in our BSIP!

Taper the money paid to bus operators on a cap and collar contract. If you run services on a £2 fare route and you’re making a tidy profit off of it, then there shouldn’t be subsidy provided.

Perhaps the fare setting should be distance based too. Anything deemed a large conurbation being £2, conurbation to conurbation for 10 miles, £3, etc. There should be incentive for operators to increase hours of service also - the fare cost to the end user really is only one small segment of it. The £2 simply draws the customer into the product!

 

[redreni]

As a Londoner my main question about the £2 cap is why is it so high?

My comments relate principally to the South East as that's where I mainly have experience of using non-London buses. I appreciate uncapped local fares in other parts of the country weren't necessarily as high and as such the cap hasn't made as much of a difference (or in some cases, no difference), so its withdrawal would presumably make less of a difference too.

I understand the concerns about the lack of an exit strategy but that is because reliance on unsubsidised buses is and always was a terrible idea. People outside London did put up with it for many years (although most people's coping strategy was to avoid using buses unless there was no other option), but once people realise very poor value bus fares aren't inevitable (and are very much not the norm internationally if you compare our uncapped bus fares with Europe or North America - or almost anywhere to be honest), people's willingness to accept them will naturally diminish.

The long term solution is to regulate the fares so they remain affordable. Put fares under the control of local or regional transport authorities. I'd go further and regulate day ticket/daily capping prices and introduce free transfers within urban areas (probably through the London "hopper fare" model, though the old-school North American paper transfer model could also be used if you want to stop people making short-duration return trips).

I don't think people would react well to the withdrawal of the fare cap. Nor should they.

 

[jon0844]

A lot of people still have no idea that buses are capped at £2 in most cases. If they don't use buses, who would tell them? Maybe they see something written on the side of a bus, but don't realise what it means - or just how far you could go for that £2.

Then there's the issue where lots of buses have been cut from service, or routes changed, requiring changes - and there being no hopper fare. So £2 becomes £4 becomes £6. At some point a daily fare is better value, but not everyone who uses buses knows about these - let alone the people you're trying to attract.

I've had nothing through the post about the scheme, yet HCC has said plenty about how it is supposedly fixing potholes and other things relating to highways/roads. They seem able to get the postman to chuck a leaflet on that through my letterbox, but buses? Nada.

Maybe they've taken out ads in local papers, but who buys a newspaper these days?

The problem outside of big cities is there's a stigma attached to buses that can't be shaken overnight. The buses I use (when they run, which is the bigger problem) are generally clean and of a far higher standard than what many people may have experienced the last time they tried a bus. I'd even go as far to say that some of the newer routes, especially the express bus services, are pretty fast too - comparable to driving (and without the need to find and pay for parking).

Yet while I've seen stickers put up on the stops where these express services call, again, I suspect most people don't know what stops they'd need to go to pick up one of these new services - and add in people on Facebook being confused about which bus stop to go because bus companies can sometimes fail to update their own timetables, and there are still lots of factors that will stop this scheme becoming a success.

People won't travel by bus if they have a poor experience, like the bus doesn't turn up, or it goes a different way to what they have been told.

I find myself telling people about how they can use a bus and they're always skeptical, and in some cases I feel I can't lie and pretend the experience will be fantastic. You really do need the tools to stand a good chance of getting around (like using bustimes.org and other apps) and it shouldn't be like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will be interesting to see what might happen if Labour gets into power, considering the £2 fare scheme doesn't exist in Wales (controlled by Labour). Will they pledge to extend the scheme to Wales?

It's notable that while they're not flat Trawscymru fares are quite low, certainly in that ballpark.

 

[stevieinselby]

Someone here suggested that most town bus fares should be under £2.50 even without a cap, and for our towns I'd agree. Indeed as almost all are council supported we could probably achieve that. But I'm not so sure that the inter-urban routes have similar fares for their "in town" sections, and as they are commercial we could only ask. Certainly something to consider though. Our city, with a dominate operator and a commercial network had rather higher fares, pre-cap, so intervention there would be harder, and more costly.

The same post suggested that a £2.50 rural fare would increase rural mobility, and again I agree. Where its a supported route, and if its into the nearest town I could see we might be able to make a good case, although I'm not sure our councillors would find a way to make up the revenue shortfall - someone has to pay after all.

That post didn't mention the longer inter-urban routes, where fares are higher due to distance and passengers are travelling around about 10 miles to a larger town. We're not talking £16 return Leeds - Scarborough types here, but still commercial, fairly frequent routes where a return is probably around £9 (often sold as that operators day ticket). What should we say £3.00? £3.50 each way? Bit of a jump from £2.00, but still better than it was. These are the routes we see good growth on, and where we want to invest in better bus stops to help that growth. We're also using BSIP2 (formerly BSIP+) funding to increase frequencies on some, but it would be hard to argue "rural connectivity" on most of them, and they are commercial so the operator would be looking for something at least as good as the current scheme. Those are the tricky ones.

Equally tricky, how can the council justify capped fares on "rural" routes but not on inter-urbans? "Why should I pay more just because of where I live?" would be the cry, especially when the inter-urbans have the best hope of achieving modal shift and a reduction in congestion and pollution both of which the council wants to achieve.

Short-hop fares on longer routes can vary significantly.
I know that, a few years ago, the fare from the outer reaches of York into the city centre was less on an interurban Arriva service than on a local First service – I think Arriva saw local passengers there as pin money and could afford to undercut First because they were getting most of their income from the long-distance passengers, whereas First needed the local passengers to be paying enough to make the service viable.
On the other hand, looking at how Transdev quickly reached the maximum fare of £9 return on The 36 for a journey of just 4 miles on a route running 28 miles, it seems unlikely that their local fares would have been cheap.

 

[Haywain]

As a Londoner my main question about the £2 cap is why is it so high?

As a non-Londoner I would say that shows how sheltered Londoners have been from the real costs of bus travel outside of the bigger city areas. As an aside to that, it also applies to service levels and operating times - I am off to a neighbouring town on Sunday evening and was astonished to find that I can avoid rail replacement buses for part of the journey by using a normal service bus for the whole journey, even arriving home close to midnight - that’s not what is expected of bus services round these parts.

 

[PeterC]

As a Londoner my main question about the £2 cap is why is it so high

Because buses outside London take cash. Its far quicker on boarding to sort out two one pound coins than a mix of silver.

Actually it was probably just a good sound bite with the added advantage that the ignorant could complain about Khan not participating.

 

[820KDV]

A lot of people still have no idea that buses are capped at £2 in most cases. If they don't use buses, who would tell them?

I can't speak for other areas, but the Council I work for has been promoting the £2 fare through its social media channels, on the website, and the weekly residents' e-newsletter. Sure it won't have reached everyone, but we're trying, and will continue to do so until at least October this year. Beyond that we are unsure. We will still be busy promoting the bus, but don't want to include the £2 message if that is about to come to a crashing end.

We need to keep messages simple, so BSIP funded improvements, today's ZEBRA2 announcement etc concentrate on that message, but the £2 fare as well as more general "use the bus" and "use your bus pass" messages intersperse the specific ones.

 

[Kite159]

The big issue I found before the flat £2 fares was trying to find the fare of the journey online as some operators treated it as a closely guarded secret.
Other than stagecoach whom had the fares displayed on their website journey planner.

 

[Trainman40083]

This is a topic which occupies us at work, especially as we write the 2024 update to our Bus Service Improvement Plan (BSIP) where it asks about such things.

Someone here suggested that most town bus fares should be under £2.50 even without a cap, and for our towns I'd agree. Indeed as almost all are council supported we could probably achieve that. But I'm not so sure that the inter-urban routes have similar fares for their "in town" sections, and as they are commercial we could only ask. Certainly something to consider though. Our city, with a dominate operator and a commercial network had rather higher fares, pre-cap, so intervention there would be harder, and more costly.

The same post suggested that a £2.50 rural fare would increase rural mobility, and again I agree. Where its a supported route, and if its into the nearest town I could see we might be able to make a good case, although I'm not sure our councillors would find a way to make up the revenue shortfall - someone has to pay after all.

That post didn't mention the longer inter-urban routes, where fares are higher due to distance and passengers are travelling around about 10 miles to a larger town. We're not talking £16 return Leeds - Scarborough types here, but still commercial, fairly frequent routes where a return is probably around £9 (often sold as that operators day ticket). What should we say £3.00? £3.50 each way? Bit of a jump from £2.00, but still better than it was. These are the routes we see good growth on, and where we want to invest in better bus stops to help that growth. We're also using BSIP2 (formerly BSIP+) funding to increase frequencies on some, but it would be hard to argue "rural connectivity" on most of them, and they are commercial so the operator would be looking for something at least as good as the current scheme. Those are the tricky ones.

Equally tricky, how can the council justify capped fares on "rural" routes but not on inter-urbans? "Why should I pay more just because of where I live?" would be the cry, especially when the inter-urbans have the best hope of achieving modal shift and a reduction in congestion and pollution both of which the council wants to achieve.

Answers on a Post Card please, and we'll use the best one in our BSIP!

I think one of the issues for me, is "is it valid for money?". I feel something like an Oyster card scores there, because it just charges you for what you do. Okay, say I go into my nearest City which is 2.5 miles away. Currently £2 (normal fare £2.90 each way). Well if I can get what I want for less than £4 more, I have saved money. Okay if I want to travel further, it might cost me £7.60 for a day ticket, or several £2 tickets which may or may not exceed the day ticket. But I have to make that choice, where as something like an Oyster card would just give best value. I could pay the £2, meet a friend and go out somewhere on a day ticket. Could have saved £2 not buying that first ticket. Half the time, I just go in the car, or the train instead. Yet, I would use the bus. Now when you then throw in several bus operators in an area, for your journey, then you may just discount the bus completely. Maybe each bus company having their own app, which may or may not work well. Sorry, easier not to use the bus. In fact, now, my ideal is to walk to the local shopping centre, so all public transport has lost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In fact, now, my ideal is to walk to the local shopping centre, so all public transport has lost.

I think if there's one thing public transport should not attempt to compete with it's "active travel". Walking and cycling are to be encouraged above all motorised transport of any kind.

So if you prefer to walk, great, carry on doing so.

 

[duncombec]

Let's remember (if nothing else to keep the thread on the £2 fare, and not disappear off more generally) that the £2 fare was designed to provide "evident" government support as part of 'cost of living' measures for those who do not drive, or choose not to for certain trips.

It clearly was not ever designed to promote public transport usage. If it was, there would have been encouragement for operators to promote bus travel and see more people switch to bus, thus increasing their reimbursement with each successive round, whilst at the same time bringing services onto a more even commercial footing post-Covid. Instead, the ideal seems to have been to keep reimbursement to operators as low as they'll accept.

As I understand it, the scheme is currently announced until December 2024, but operators have accepted reimbursement until June. Surely the time for the Department for Transport to be working out a strategy, be that of continuation or exit, is now, so operators can start to plan their finances for the latter half of the year and into next year? Instead, I suspect operators will be left wondering what's happening in October and November, or even if a strategy is announced, as it was last time (at least a rise to £2.50), whether it will change when something else gets cut and more money can be moved around the cabinet table.

 

[Trainman40083]

I think if there's one thing public transport should not attempt to compete with it's "active travel". Walking and cycling are to be encouraged above all motorised transport of any kind.

So if you prefer to walk, great, carry on doing so.

What surprises me, is, the number of people I know locally, and they have just stopped shopping in the City (where the bus goes). They just shop elsewhere and I don't mean all on line.

 

[redreni]

The big issue I found before the flat £2 fares was trying to find the fare of the journey online as some operators treated it as a closely guarded secret.
Other than stagecoach whom had the fares displayed on their website journey planner.

I can't for the life of me work out why the secrecy is even permitted.

The consumer who doesn't know the fare is in a weaker position to choose whether and by what mode to travel if they can't find out the fare until they've turned up at the bus stop and waited for the bus. And when the driver tells them the fare they have to make an instant decision, while dozens of people are waiting, whether or not they wish to pay it.

If they are making a long journey and choosing between, say, driving or taking a train and then a bus, they may be fully committed to the train & bus option before they can find out what the bus fare is.

That is manifestly unfair.

You would think even the lightest of light-touch regulatory regimes would be capable of telling the bus companies to stick the fare charts on their website.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think any of the local Hertfordshire bus operators (Uno, Arriva etc) advertise their fares online either - but they do advertise things like daily, weekly, monthly passes and sometimes tickets on shuttles or other short routes (like for Uno a bus that goes from the business park to town centre). I can't recall ever seeing single fares for longer trips, but they DID show the minimum fare on the buses themselves as I recall.

Herts County Council through the Intalink partnership also advertise their daily passes etc, and their saver card, and they also publish the maps that are up at the bus stations. Some of these are 2016 or 2018 and show buses that no longer exist, nor the buses that do now exist. Again suggesting they don't really care. How can they tell people about a £2 flat-rate fare on a poster that's six or eight years old?

 

[AlastairFraser]

For commercial urban stuff there doesn’t need to be much of an exit strategy because fares shouldn’t be higher than £2 (+uplifts for inflation as required). First used to charge £3.80 single from Queensbury to Halifax, a distance of about 3 miles, but their app (when it worked) did offer a flat fare ticket at £2. So there doesn’t need to be an exit strategy- the operator already offered fares at that rate.

Isn't this option WYCA/Metro, so permanently capped outside of the govt. scheme anyway?

 

[jkkne]

My take on this. I’m a people manager for a very large organisation whose base is in Newcastle and part of our green remit is to encourage folk to use public transport. We pay above the real living wage but transport costs were cited as an issue for entry level colleagues

The £2 cap has been a godsend in that regard, followed by transport north east £6 day rover. Though you do still find those who travel by bus do so out of need, very few out of personal choice.

Whilst arriva and stagecoach were reasonably priced you had Go North East the biggest operator with huge swathes of monopolies in the more disadvantaged areas charging nigh on £4 for a 5 mile journey and raising prices consistently. One of its ticket options went from £19 to £26.

Whilst the fare will make a huge difference to those lower or mid range paid workers, reliable frequencies, clean buses and actually going to where folk want to go will make more impact

 

[Statto]

As a Londoner my main question about the £2 cap is why is it so high?

Because before the cap, single fares outside London were higher, as they are set by the bus operator, & not a organisation like TFL, a single journey in some areas could cost well over £3, Merseyside is keeping the £2 fare cap when the £2 fare cap ends, largely due to finding from Merseytravel & Liverpool City Region.

In Wales were they don't have the £2 fare cap, some fares are ridiculously overpriced, like Rhyl - Prestatyn on Arriva, journey time 15 to 20 minutes on direct buses, fare £3.70 adult single.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Whilst arriva and stagecoach were reasonably priced you had Go North East the biggest operator with huge swathes of monopolies in the more disadvantaged areas charging nigh on £4 for a 5 mile journey

Go North East have long price-gouged in their monopoly areas. When I lived in North Tyneside they charged £3 for a single from Silverlink to Northumberland Park, a distance of about two miles. My preference was always to walk there and get the bus back with my shopping, but at those prices I tended to drive.

As you say, Stagecoach day and weekly tickets were always very reasonably priced, and when I lived in Seaton Delaval Arriva were ok too- very competitive weekly tickets compared to driving into Newcastle.

Isn't this option WYCA/Metro, so permanently capped outside of the govt. scheme anyway?

Yeah, it is, and will be priced into the proposed franchising scheme.

 

[HullRailMan]

As a Londoner my main question about the £2 cap is why is it so high?

Or rather, why aren’t bus fares in London £2 given that TfL are supposedly short of cash? Funny how a mayoral election overrides financial logic.

 

[Llandudno]

It's notable that while they're not flat Trawscymru fares are quite low, certainly in that ballpark.

In north Wales where most buses are operated commercially by Arriva fares for short single journeys are extortionate, but at least you can buy a multi operator day ticket 1BWS for £6.50. No doubt this will rise in price seeing as though the Arriva only north west and Wales day ticket is rising to £7.50.

 

[Deerfold]

Isn't this option WYCA/Metro, so permanently capped outside of the govt. scheme anyway?

It's designed to be a long term low fare scheme, but not permanently capped to £2. I believe they've extended the time it will be £2, delaying a plan to move it to £2.50, presumably to stay in line with the national scheme.

WYCA/Metro are also funding an experimental £1 local fare scheme on buses around Keighley, including to Airedale Hospital (which used to be nearly £3). Oddly. it's not available on the only local contracted service.

 

[AlastairFraser]

It's designed to be a long term low fare scheme, but not permanently capped to £2. I believe they've extended the time it will be £2, delaying a plan to move it to £2.50, presumably to stay in line with the national scheme.

WYCA/Metro are also funding an experimental £1 local fare scheme on buses around Keighley, including to Airedale Hospital (which used to be nearly £3). Oddly. it's not available on the only local contracted service.

Ah, so they will have a fare cap, but not £2, and maybe a tier between local and urban bus services. Makes sense

 

[redreni]

Or rather, why aren’t bus fares in London £2 given that TfL are supposedly short of cash? Funny how a mayoral election overrides financial logic.

Perhaps you mean the Mayor is democratically accountable?

If only the Transport Secretary was subject to the same level of democratic accountability, then perhaps TfL and other regional transport authorities would have been compensated after Covid restrictions decimated their fares revenue, just as private operators were.

 

[HullRailMan]

Perhaps you mean the Mayor is democratically accountable?

If only the Transport Secretary was subject to the same level of democratic accountability, then perhaps TfL and other regional transport authorities would have been compensated after Covid restrictions decimated their fares revenue, just as private operators were.

This isn’t about covid - it’s about the mayor saying TfL requires extra funding on one hand then freezing single fares (with plenty of publicity) in an election year. This is just storing up problems for the future where fares income isn’t keeping pace with rising costs - the shortfall has to come from somewhere.

Raising bus fares would bring in extra income - he could even be creative and just raise bus fares in zone 1 which would target visitors more who wouldn’t likely notice the difference. A £2 fare in Central London (if not all of London) is hardly unreasonable given the rest of the country can afford it.

I hope he is held accountable for this obvious election bribe, though I think there are enough sheep to blindly vote for him. The lack of a credible alternative candidate won’t help either.

 

[TUC]

Perhaps you mean the Mayor is democratically accountable?

If only the Transport Secretary was subject to the same level of democratic accountability, then perhaps TfL and other regional transport authorities would have been compensated after Covid restrictions decimated their fares revenue, just as private operators were.

He is democratically accountable every four years but, unlike local authorities with committee decision-making systems rather than elected mayors, he can largely do as he likes in the intervening years. It is a major democratic deficit in the elected mayor system.

 

[GusB]

This thread is for discussing the £2 fare cap and what will happen after the funding ends. London has its own arrangements that do not apply here. Please stay on topic.

 

[Goldfish62]

Interesting fact: The annual subsidy to maintain the £2 flat fare is the equivalent of just 2 days of subsidy to the railways.

 

[Trainman40083]

Interesting fact: The annual subsidy to maintain the £2 flat fare is the equivalent of just 2 days of subsidy to the railways.

Yes, but the railways are Government owned , certainly in terms of the infrastructure and virtually all the passenger operations. Bus companies are private enterprises. Well except for a few still owned by the Councils.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, but the railways are Government owned , certainly in terms of the infrastructure and virtually all the passenger operations. Bus companies are private enterprises. Well except for a few still owned by the Councils.

Correct. But then I was just pointing out how little the scheme is costing the government in relative terms. That's all. At the end of the day, buses or trains, they're both public services irrespective of ownership.