0-6-0T locomotive Mary

[carlwebus]

Hi All

My first post.

Does anybody know anything about the locomotive in the picture attached?

It may be industrial?

Or "minor standard gauge"?

1930s?

 

[alexl92]

I believe it's a Hudswell Clarke MSC 0-6-0 with short side tanks. Examples in preservation include 31 Hamburg at Oxenhope and 32 Gothenburg on the East Lancashire Railway.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi All

My first post.

Does anybody know anything about the locomotive in the picture attached?

It may be industrial?View attachment 112128

Or "minor standard gauge"?

1930s?

Interesting pic - looks like an amateur picture - do you have any personal connection with it (eg pic taken by a family member or someone in the picture related to you for example).

It maybe that the sleuths on this forum could work out or narrow down the location of the pic if it is known where that loco worked.

 

[carlwebus]

Thank you alexl92. Agree: definitely Hudswell Clarke MSC short tank.

WesternLancer: It's certainly an amateur photo. I have no connection with it as it came from a job lot of fascinating photos I bought at local auction. These included all sorts of stuff from all over the country and Ireland (including Leek & manifold, Trallee & Dingle, West Clare as well as LMS and LNER stuff). Some were anotated on the back (and even some readable)! Most seem to be from the 1930s or 40s. If only the guy on the right didn't have his head in the way of the plate on the bunker! The wagon its pulling seem to be an open carrying coal? Front buffer bent down? Not railway uniforms. Therefore industrial/ coal mine/ iron works? But seems to have a sort of "head code" type light on the top front of the smokebox?

The date on the photo is 18th July 1937 and its makred "photo by R B Brindle"

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you alexl92. Agree: definitely Hudswell Clarke MSC short tank.

WesternLancer: It's certainly an amateur photo. I have no connection with it as it came from a job lot of fascinating photos I bought at local auction. These included all sorts of stuff from all over the country and Ireland (including Leek & manifold, Trallee & Dingle, West Clare as well as LMS and LNER stuff). Some were anotated on the back (and even some readable)! Most seem to be from the 1930s or 40s. If only the guy on the right didn't have his head in the way of the plate on the bunker! The wagon its pulling seem to be an open carrying coal? Front buffer bent down? Not railway uniforms. Therefore industrial/ coal mine/ iron works? But seems to have a sort of "head code" type light on the top front of the smokebox?

The date on the photo is 18th July 1937 and its makred "photo by R B Brindle"

Thanks - yes, plate 'halo' around head of that chap is a shame! Also wagon script obscured by fence...would be great if people on here knew more. Don't know if it might help if the thread title include a request to help identify the photo, in terms of attracting readers attention that is.

 

[Gloster]

A quick search found a list of MSC locos, but there is no Mary amongst them: not all were named and those that were mostly carried placenames. If it had been an MSC loco, then could it have been sold out of service? Or were locos of the type built for other users?

 

[John Webb]

As it was made by Hudswell-Clarke, based in Leeds, is it quite likely that they sold locos built to this design to other industrial users?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Hmm. There is no ‘Mary’ side tank standard gauge steam locomotive listed in Jim Pike’s ‘Locomotive Names - An Illustrated Directory’. It seems that the OP had found a rare item.

 

[Bevan Price]

A quick search found a list of MSC locos, but there is no Mary amongst them: not all were named and those that were mostly carried placenames. If it had been an MSC loco, then could it have been sold out of service? Or were locos of the type built for other users?

According to "Hudswell Clarke & Company Locomotive Works List" by Clive Hardy, these were designed for MSC, and known as the "Canal" or Philadelphia" Class. Some were built for other companies, but I cannot find any listed with the name "Mary".

However, industrial locos were often named after family members of managers, and it was not unknown to change loco names when the managers were changed. If anyone has time to search through the various books by Industrial Railway Society, they may possibly locate this "Mary".

 

[Clarence Yard]

This doesn’t look like an HC “Philly” to me - more like a Hunslet.

 

[Rescars]

Is the safety valve bonnet a distinctive identifying feature? It looks quite unusual.

 

[martinsh]

I'm wondering about the building behind the loco. And the one on the left looks like a signal box to me - which would be unusual on a colliery system ?

 

[John Webb]

I'm wondering about the building behind the loco. And the one on the left looks like a signal box to me - which would be unusual on a colliery system ?

Colliery systems could have boxes, but the construction of the building makes me think it's not a signal box. Access stairs supported by a large brick pillar, and only a few narrow windows visible are not typical signal box characteristics.

 

[Matey]

Interesting pic - looks like an amateur picture - do you have any personal connection with it (eg pic taken by a family member or someone in the picture related to you for example).

It maybe that the sleuths on this forum could work out or narrow down the location of the pic if it is known where that loco worked.

It looks as if the man standing on the left is carrying a red flag and the track is leading onto a cobbled surface.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm wondering about the building behind the loco. And the one on the left looks like a signal box to me - which would be unusual on a colliery system ?

I wondered that at 1st glance but then though the building looks too big - like it is the end wall of a house with windows in it - or maybe a works building.

 

[Gloster]

Is what we see in #1 all the image, or has it been slightly cropped on the right-hand side? If there is more it might be possible to identify the PO wagon, which could provide a clue. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Could the building be a gatehouse?

 

[Matey]

I wondered that at 1st glance but then though the building looks too big - like it is the end wall of a house with windows in it - or maybe a works building.

There is a van in the background. Could the loco be leaving a small goods yard with a load for a local gasworks?

 

[6Gman]

I would suggest contacting the Industrial Railway Society. It's some years since I was a member but their quarterly magazine used to regularly feature Mystery Photos, which could then be reviewed by their (expert) members. This could well be just up their street.

 

[Gloster]

I would suggest contacting the Industrial Railway Society. It's some years since I was a member but their quarterly magazine used to regularly feature Mystery Photos, which could then be reviewed by their (expert) members. This could well be just up their street.

Just beat me to it. Definitely, if anyone knows, it is likely to be the IRS.

 

[randyrippley]

The wagon contents look more like briquettes or coalite than coal.
Coke works?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Just been through my father's notebooks from his visits to industrial locations with high hopes of identifying the loco, unfortunately nothing! There were two locos named 'Mary' but neither were 0-6-0's..girls names seemed to be especially popular!
I've had a good few hours glancing through the notebooks, the variety of different industries and locations that operated a railway system was quite remarkable.
If 'Mary' is from the MSC (Manchester Ship Canal, I presume?) as @alexl92 suggests, then Dad did not visit what must have been an extensive system. He did note on a number of occasions that names were changed as locos were sold or moved to different locations.

 

[Bevan Price]

This doesn’t look like an HC “Philly” to me - more like a Hunslet.

The above-mentioned book contains a photo of a "Philadelphia" class loco, and apart from minor details, it looks almost identical to "Mary".

What identifies "Mary" as not being a MSC loco is the absence of a numberplate; MSC locos all had metal number plates on the side tanks, in addition to any nameplate.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Have a look at MSC 31 or 32 and then compare it to “The Lady Armaghdale” (HE 686 - another former MSC loco) and you will see what I mean.

The Hunslet “jazzer” was the predecessor of the HC tanks on the MSC and that basic Hunslet design was also sold to others.

I now have a possibility. Hunslet 720 of 1900. Peel Hall Collieries, Little Hulton, Lancs. One of three HE IC 0-6-0T that worked here until the colliery closed in 1946.

Mary was HE 720/00, King Edward VII was HE 953/07, King George V was HE 1151/14. Mary was scrapped in 11/47 and the other two in 12/47. Info from IRS pocket book No 7 (Lancashire) page 401 and subsequent amendment sheets.

Peel Hall then became an opencast site for the NCB (Ministry of Power until 1952).

 

[WesternLancer]

Have a look at MSC 31 or 32 and then compare it to “The Lady Armaghdale” (HE 686 - another former MSC loco) and you will see what I mean.

The Hunslet “jazzer” was the predecessor of the HC tanks on the MSC and that basic Hunslet design was also sold to others.

I now have a possibility. Hunslet 720 of 1900. Peel Hall Collieries, Little Hulton, Lancs. One of three HE IC 0-6-0T that worked here until the colliery closed in 1946.

Mary was HE 720/00, King Edward VII was HE 953/07, King George V was HE 1151/14. Mary was scrapped in 11/47 and the other two in 12/47. Info from IRS pocket book No 7 (Lancashire) page 401 and subsequent amendment sheets.

Peel Hall then became an opencast site for the NCB (Ministry of Power until 1952).

Interesting info - wonder if @carlwebus has kept an eye on the thread? Given what they said about the pic hard to know if possible to verify for certain, but it sounds plausible info from that source.

 

[Taunton]

Queen Mary was of course King George V wife (hence the large liner name). Wouldn't have been queen at the time the loco was built, but they were king and queen by the time KGV was built, on these dates.

 

[Gloster]

Queen Mary was of course King George V wife (hence the large liner name). Wouldn't have been queen at the time the loco was built, but they were king and queen by the time KGV was built, on these dates.

In those deferential days I very much doubt that any business would have been so impertinent as to name a loco after a member of the royal family with just their first name, rather than the full title. However, James Roscoe, who sank the pit, had married a Mary Bennet: he had died in 1890, but I think his son was managing the pit in 1900. Whether Mary Roscoe was still alive I haven’t yet discovered.

 

[randyrippley]

Have a look at MSC 31 or 32 and then compare it to “The Lady Armaghdale” (HE 686 - another former MSC loco) and you will see what I mean.

The Hunslet “jazzer” was the predecessor of the HC tanks on the MSC and that basic Hunslet design was also sold to others.

I now have a possibility. Hunslet 720 of 1900. Peel Hall Collieries, Little Hulton, Lancs. One of three HE IC 0-6-0T that worked here until the colliery closed in 1946.

Mary was HE 720/00, King Edward VII was HE 953/07, King George V was HE 1151/14. Mary was scrapped in 11/47 and the other two in 12/47. Info from IRS pocket book No 7 (Lancashire) page 401 and subsequent amendment sheets.

Peel Hall then became an opencast site for the NCB (Ministry of Power until 1952).

first photo on this page is of the colliery in 1905
the loco on display looks completely different

Remarkable black and white pictures show Salford at the turn of the century

Remarkable black and white pictures show Salford at the turn of the century

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[Gloster]

first photo on this page is of the colliery in 1905
the loco on display looks completely different

Remarkable black and white pictures show Salford at the turn of the century

Remarkable black and white pictures show Salford at the turn of the century

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

But could that have been another, older loco?

 

[randyrippley]

But could that have been another, older loco?

possibly

 

[Clarence Yard]

There was at least two other locos there. Lord Kenton, an IC 0-6-0ST - HE 289/84, which was scrapped in 1909 and an early IC 0-6-0ST Manning Wardle, which was acquired from a dealer - MW 76/63. This was presumably scrapped quite early on.

Info from the same IRS source.