16-25 minimum fare

[Polarbear]

Having just travelled on the mid-Cheshire line, I overheard a holder of said card argue about the minimum fare of £12. The line taken by the railcard holder was "I travel this line every day & I've always got the discounted fare".

Now aside from any arguments about paying before boarding etc, it is actually possible for a conductor and/or TVM to issue a discounted ticket, for use at a time when said discount is not valid?

I'll add that said individual also made several comments about the railway "making up the rules as they go along" and other equally ill informed quips! I remember my days of the (then) YP card & the minimum fare rule was certainly in place back then-and given that fares were lower back in the 1980's, it made much more of a difference too!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could they be a new Railcard user who has only used it in July and August so far when it doesn't apply?

A guard can issue what they like. A TVM that does tickets for another day/time probably will as well, but only on selecting that option.

 

[paddington]

I've had guards issuing off-peak fares during the morning peak...

 

[[.n]]

Other reasons could be always travelled after 10am, fare has always been over £12

 

[Scotty]

Other reasons could be always travelled after 10am, fare has always been over £12

Not always. Used to be separate single and return minimum fares.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I am not sure about StarMobile but Avantix certainly didn't apply the £12 minimum fare. It didn't even remind you about it. The Guard / RPA / Whoever had to remember about it, then press a button to activate the £12 minimum fare. But you couldn't do this on the fare selection screen, you had to go a bit more into it. So if you pressed Station A to Station B and selected 16-25 from the drop down list, it would happily show you a fare of say, £9 for an SDR. You could then simply press "Cash" and it would sell you the ticket at £9. To get the £12 minimum fare you had to bypass the quick sale button and go into it in more detail before going to the full payment screen. The only thing it did do was not let you apply the £12 minimum in July and August as the button was greyed out then.

As many / most companies give little to no proper retail training to on board staff then it would be perfectly feasible for some staff to not know about it or have forgotten about it as they were last told about it many years ago.

In respect of SVR tickets at times when they are not valid - Avantix didn't alert you to any time restrictions and would let you sell any ticket at any time without any warning - which is why lots of people did sell SVR tickets when they were in fact not valid. I am told StarMobile is the same and does not alert you to any restrictions and will let you sell any ticket at any time - which is why people are still selling SVR tickets at times they are not valid. The restriction information is there, but you have to go and find it.

 

[185143]

I was sold a Ffairfach-Bynea return onboard by a guard at the railcard fare back in May. I presented a Crewe-Ffairfach which was discounted as its £16-odd and asked for a return to Bynea (well... I tried!) With a £5 note in my hand and was given a discount. So yes, railcard tickets can be sold in the peak.

Personally, to insist on applying it to two of 5 trains per day is excessively penalising, it means the first valid railcard ticket is on the service that arrives into Swansea at 14:00!

I'd question wether a complete blanket ban on sub-£12 tickets is either appropriate or fair really.

 

[plymothian]

I am not sure about StarMobile but Avantix certainly didn't apply the £12 minimum fare.

[...]

In respect of SVR tickets at times when they are not valid - Avantix didn't alert you to any time restrictions and would let you sell any ticket at any time without any warning - which is why lots of people did sell SVR tickets when they were in fact not valid. I am told StarMobile is the same and does not alert you to any restrictions and will let you sell any ticket at any time - which is why people are still selling SVR tickets at times they are not valid. The restriction information is there, but you have to go and find it.

STARMobile enforces the minimum fare.

With regard to restriction times once a ticket is printed that it thinks is invalid a warning box will pop up, by which time it is too late. But it will only do this once, if the operator dismisses the warning it won't show again. However, some restrictions are so complicated that they don't show on STARMobile, with a generic 'restrictions may apply' message.

 

[causton]

On Avantix in the booking office, you have to click on the fare, then it says "Minimum fare may apply" and then you have to click to apply the minimum fare. If you set it up to repeat the fare (i.e. people ask for 'a day return to London Terminals for Monday to Friday' as with a railcard it is cheaper than a weekly) - it will not apply the minimum fare, so you have to be very careful indeed!

 

[Polarbear]

Thanks for the replies.

Looks like the lad may have been on solid ground with his argument. It can't make life easy for conductors etc.

I'm wondering whether it may be time to review the blanket minimum fare rule for the 16-25 card? Doesn't affect me personally as I'm much nearer to being eligible for a senior card!

 

[fishquinn]

Does a 16-25 discounted ticket under £12 become invalid if used before 10:00 outside July and August? If not, what's stopping people buying the ticket online in advance of the day for the normal price and picking it up before the trip?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does a 16-25 discounted ticket under £12 become invalid if used before 10:00 outside July and August?

Yes.

If not, what's stopping people buying the ticket online in advance of the day for the normal price and picking it up before the trip?

Them not having a valid ticket for their journey

 

[fishquinn]

Yes.



Them not having a valid ticket for their journey

I presume if bought on board from the guard and the guard doesn't apply the minimum fare then it would be considered authority to travel on that ticket if you had a problem at the barriers?

 

[Harbouring]

I used to have some annoying issues travelling on my 16-25 catching the 1004 Portsmouth and Southsea to Hedge End, couldn't apply the discount until after 10, train arrives on the platform usually 1002 and gets dispatched sharpish. There was jeopardy that I would be unable to catch my train as i am disabled it was not easy to get up to the platform quickly and that's assuming no queues at the TVM or ticket office.


I ended up going from Fratton and having to ask for a ticket from Portsmouth and Southsea.

 

[ainsworth74]

I presume if bought on board from the guard and the guard doesn't apply the minimum fare then it would be considered authority to travel on that ticket if you had a problem at the barriers?

I would have said so yes. It'd be a tough argument, I think, to require a passenger to purchase a new ticket if they'd bought on board and the guard had elected (for whatever reason) not to apply the minimum fare.

Though if such a thing was possible I'd say they'd be entitled to excess up to £12 but I'm not convinced that any ticket machines would be equipped to process such an excess unless you can do custom ones?

I used to have some annoying issues travelling on my 16-25 catching the 1004 Portsmouth and Southsea to Hedge End, couldn't apply the discount until after 10, train arrives on the platform usually 1002 and gets dispatched sharpish. There was jeopardy that I would be unable to catch my train as i am disabled it was not easy to get up to the platform quickly and that's assuming no queues at the TVM or ticket office.

Which is why in situations like this (I'm also thinking of Off-Peak tickets just before they become valid) you should be able to buy the ticket shortly before whatever restrictions apply finish but with a great big button on the screen that you have to press confirming that you understand that you cannot use it until xx : xx! It would be nice if a flag could be printed on the ticket that confirms that the button has been pressed so the passenger can't argue that 'the machine didn't say anything like that' 'well sir I'm sorry to say it did as your tickets says it did!'.

 

[takno]

Which is why in situations like this (I'm also thinking of Off-Peak tickets just before they become valid) you should be able to buy the ticket shortly before whatever restrictions apply finish but with a great big button on the screen that you have to press confirming that you understand that you cannot use it until xx : xx! It would be nice if a flag could be printed on the ticket that confirms that the button has been pressed so the passenger can't argue that 'the machine didn't say anything like that' 'well sir I'm sorry to say it did as your tickets says it did!'.

The converse would also be useful. I bought an off-peak ticket the other day shortly before the start of evening peak, and I couldn't offhand find a definitive statement of which trains I'd be able to use it on. Throwing up a warning whenever you buy a ticket in the last half hour or so before it kicks in would be handy

 

[Starmill]

It certainly seems possible. One weekday in June I asked for a return from A to B onboard a train that would also have had a Piccadilly conductor and was sold a B3 Off-Peak Day Return for £9.75 with a 16-25 railcard even though it was still 0700...

 

[Starmill]

STARMobile enforces the minimum fare.

Maybe on GWR it does

 

[Wallsendmag]

VTEC Tributes can do an X/S for any amount without the faff if having the original fare


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[LeeLivery]

I used to have some annoying issues travelling on my 16-25 catching the 1004 Portsmouth and Southsea to Hedge End, couldn't apply the discount until after 10, train arrives on the platform usually 1002 and gets dispatched sharpish. There was jeopardy that I would be unable to catch my train as i am disabled it was not easy to get up to the platform quickly and that's assuming no queues at the TVM or ticket office.


I ended up going from Fratton and having to ask for a ticket from Portsmouth and Southsea.

Indeed you can buy tickets with the railcard applied from around 09:45 from ticket machines at my local station. Furthermore, I've never known a ticket office to refuse to sell with the discount if they know the train you want will arrive after 10:00 - that would be quite unreasonable to refuse.


As for minimum fare, 09:30 onwards with London Oyster Cards the discount is applied; journey's costing as little as £1.

 

[plymothian]

Maybe on GWR it does

Double check your fares screen.
It's very counter-intuitive though if you haven't been told what to look for; you don't physically override the fare any more by pressing a "Min" button so instead you need to be looking for YNG MIN in the discount information of the ticket options displayed, usually towards the end of the list.

 

[fishquinn]

Taken from the online T&Cs:

A £12 minimum fare applies for journeys starting between 4.30am-10am Monday to Friday excluding Advance Fares. This minimum fare does not apply on Public Holidays or throughout July and August.

Does this apply to split ticketing? I see that it says for 'journeys', not particular tickets which indicates to me that you can have a combination of tickets where (say) the first one on its own would foul the minimum fare but the second is over £12? For example Leamington Spa to Coventry with YP discount is £3.65 for an anytime day return so wouldn't be valid before 10:00 but coupled to a Coventry-Melton Mowbray* anytime day return at £23.30 with discount would be because the two (which make up the 'journey') have a total of over £12. Am I right?

*Just a random example of stations.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Taken from the online T&Cs:

Does this apply to split ticketing? I see that it says for 'journeys', not particular tickets which indicates to me that you can have a combination of tickets where (say) the first one on its own would foul the minimum fare but the second is over £12? For example Leamington Spa to Coventry with YP discount is £3.65 for an anytime day return so wouldn't be valid before 10:00 but coupled to a Coventry-Melton Mowbray* anytime day return at £23.30 with discount would be because the two (which make up the 'journey') have a total of over £12. Am I right?

No, but it's an interesting line of thought in terms of interpreting the T&Cs!

 

[cactustwirly]

Taken from the online T&Cs:

Does this apply to split ticketing? I see that it says for 'journeys', not particular tickets which indicates to me that you can have a combination of tickets where (say) the first one on its own would foul the minimum fare but the second is over £12? For example Leamington Spa to Coventry with YP discount is £3.65 for an anytime day return so wouldn't be valid before 10:00 but coupled to a Coventry-Melton Mowbray* anytime day return at £23.30 with discount would be because the two (which make up the 'journey') have a total of over £12. Am I right?

*Just a random example of stations.

Is the Leamington Spa - Coventry flexible or an Advance.
If it's the latter then I don't think it's valid.

 

[fishquinn]

Is the Leamington Spa - Coventry flexible or an Advance.
If it's the latter then I don't think it's valid.

Flexible.

 

[cactustwirly]

Flexible.

I believe the minimum fare rule applies to the individual fares, not the total journey cost.
Advances are excepted from the minumum fare rule.

 

[Starmill]

I believe the minimum fare rule applies to the individual fares, not the total journey cost.

This is certainly how it is implemented, and it would be pretty difficult to argue against that.

But that does not change the fact that the railcard terms and conditions do not support it.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would not fancy having this argument with a TOC and their staff!