17 year old son used his brother's Oyster pass

[Sam71]

Hi can anyone help me with my wuery regarding oyster card offence. My 17 years old son used his 16 year old brothers photo oyster card by mistake .. he was caught on a bus . Now he received a SJPN ... I don't know what to do next.... should we plead guilty or not guilty and with fine will he get a criminal record. As i am more worried about criminal record and his date of birth is wrong on the letter as he is still 17 but according to the letter he is 18+. And can i settle this without going court. please advice thanku

 

[30907]

Hi can anyone help me with my wuery regarding oyster card offence. My 17 years old son used his 16 year old brothers photo oyster card by mistake .. he was caught on a bus . Now he received a SJPN ... I don't know what to do next.... should we plead guilty or not guilty and with fine will he get a criminal record. As i am more worried about criminal record and his date of birth is wrong on the letter as he is still 17 but according to the letter he is 18+. And can i settle this without going court. please advice thanku

What exactly does the notice say he is accused of?
Does he have his own 16+ Oyster (and if not, why not?)?

 

[najaB]

Hi can anyone help me with my wuery regarding oyster card offence. My 17 years old son used his 16 year old brothers photo oyster card by mistake .. he was caught on a bus . Now he received a SJPN ... I don't know what to do next.... should we plead guilty or not guilty and with fine will he get a criminal record. As i am more worried about criminal record and his date of birth is wrong on the letter as he is still 17 but according to the letter he is 18+. And can i settle this without going court. please advice thanku

I've asked the mods to separate this into a new thread.

The answer to if you should plead guilty or attempt to fight the charges depends entirely on what he is being accused of. If it is a simple byelaw offence then the only thing that needs to be proven is that he actually used his bother's card - the reason why doesn't matter. If they are bringing charges that allege an intent to avoid payment then it *might* be worth attempting to mount a defence.

If you are absolutely sure that it was a mistake - and there is a good explanation as to how it happened - then it might be worth pleading not guilty and going to court. That said, it's a bit odd that they've gone straight from an inspector's report to issuing a SJP notice. Are you sure that he hasn't received other correspondence that he might have ignored? As it is usual for TfL to write to the passenger asking for their side of the story before going to court.

 

[Sam71]

Hi it wasnt to avoid the fare. Actually he was going to his work experience to kings college and he was getting late and in hurry he took his brothers card. The offence is that he used someone else's card. Which is illegal.

And yes we did received letter before sjpn and we told them our side of story and he xplained and apologised to them as it was first time it happened.

And my question is can a 17 year old get a sjpn for oyster card offence.? As i told u his dob is wrong on the letter. They 're considering him as an adult.

 

[packermac]

Hi it wasnt to avoid the fare. Actually he was going to his work experience to kings college and he was getting late and in hurry he took his brothers card. The offence is that he used someone else's card. Which is illegal.

And yes we did received letter before sjpn and we told them our side of story and he xplained and apologised to them as it was first time it happened.

And my question is can a 17 year old get a sjpn for oyster card offence.? As i told u his dob is wrong on the letter. They 're considering him as an adult.

If he does have an identical card of his own to his brother, and by the time he was "caught" I assume the fare had been taken from the Oyster Card as you said it was a bus journey, I would think TFL are being exceedingly petty in pursuing this especially as they would be revenue neutral i.e. the fare taken was what should have been paid.
However if he does not have a similar card to his brother it gets more cloudy and it would need TFL do view things favourably (genuine mistake) otherwise it is a journey he was not entitled to
If he does have his own similar card and he does get prosecuted I would them make sure this is TFL attitude known to all your local papers, Metro, Evening Standard etc. George Osborn is no fan of Sadiq Khan, I could see them running with this.

 

[30907]

If he does have an identical card of his own to his brother, and by the time he was "caught" I assume the fare had been taken from the Oyster Card as you said it was a bus journey, I would think TFL are being exceedingly petty in pursuing this especially as they would be revenue neutral i.e. the fare taken was what should have been paid.
However if he does not have a similar card to his brother it gets more cloudy and it would need TFL do view things favourably (genuine mistake) otherwise it is a journey he was not entitled to
If he does have his own similar card and he does get prosecuted I would them make sure this is TFL attitude known to all your local papers, Metro, Evening Standard etc. George Osborn is no fan of Sadiq Khan, I could see them running with this.

Using someone else's photocard is still an offence, even if it is your brother's.
I agree that if he has his own card it is a lesser offence (ticketless travel rather than fare evasion).
@ Sam71: could you confirm that the Oyster card was PAYG and didn't have any travelcard loaded on it?

 

[Sam71]

Yes it was payg.

 

[packermac]

Using someone else's photocard is still an offence, even if it is your brother's.
I agree that if he has his own card it is a lesser offence (ticketless travel rather than fare evasion).
@ Sam71: could you confirm that the Oyster card was PAYG and didn't have any travelcard loaded on it?

In 41 years of working for BA I twice ended up at Heathrow with my wife's passport instead of mine. The second time I did not notice until they started boarding at the gate as I only had a laptop for a day business trip to Airbus. Picking up the wrong thing that looks similar is not always that difficult. As an aside it is lot harder to get out of T5 when you have not actually gone anywhere, even if you can show them airport ID.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Hi can anyone help me with my wuery regarding oyster card offence. My 17 years old son used his 16 year old brothers photo oyster card by mistake .. he was caught on a bus . Now he received a SJPN ... I don't know what to do next.... should we plead guilty or not guilty and with fine will he get a criminal record. As i am more worried about criminal record and his date of birth is wrong on the letter as he is still 17 but according to the letter he is 18+. And can i settle this without going court. please advice thanku

If your son is 17 they should be dealt with in a Youth Court, not the Adult Magistrates Court, which covers the SJPN.

Contact the court and TFL and explain that your son is only 17 and that you believe that the SPJN has been issued in error, given the age of your son. I suggest calling first, followed by a letter.

The SJPN should be withdrawn. I doubt that the matter would be sent to the Youth Court, though please post back with the outcome.

 

[Sam71]

If your son is 17 they should be dealt with in a Youth Court, not the Adult Magistrates Court, which covers the SJPN.

Contact the court and TFL and explain that your son is only 17 and that you believe that the SPJN has been issued in error, given the age of your son. I suggest calling first, followed by a letter.

The SJPN should be withdrawn. I doubt that the matter would be sent to the Youth Court, though please post back with the outcome.

Thanks I was thinking of doing this and 1 more question ... in case if they don't withdraw SJPN shall we plead guilty or not guilty .... I don't know what to do.... and I called CAB as well but that was not of much help. I am worried about the criminal record as he is applying for uni it can effect his application I think.

 

[jumble]

Hi it wasnt to avoid the fare. Actually he was going to his work experience to kings college and he was getting late and in hurry he took his brothers card. The offence is that he used someone else's card. Which is illegal.

And yes we did received letter before sjpn and we told them our side of story and he xplained and apologised to them as it was first time it happened.

And my question is can a 17 year old get a sjpn for oyster card offence.? As i told u his dob is wrong on the letter. They 're considering him as an adult.

I would politely ask TFL about their youth prosecutions policy as you are very confused about the issue of the SPJN at the same time as stating again you want to make things right

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecution-policy.pdf

5. Young Offenders 5.1 TfL will not normally prosecute any person under the age of 18 on the day of the relevant offence. This is in line with the Home Office guidelines of diverting youths away where possible, from the criminal justice system. However where the offence is of a serious nature, TfL may prosecute or in appropriate cases refer such an offence to the Police. TfL considers the following offences to be of a serious nature: a) Assaults on staff or other Public Order offences b) Criminal damage to TfL property c) Forgery and counterfeiting of TfL travel tickets and passes d) Illegal production or sale of TfL travel tickets and passes e) Repeat offences of any nature or offences committed after a previous warning. f) Breach of an injunction or Criminal Behaviour Order under the AntiSocial Behaviour Crime and Policing Act 2014. g) Any other offence(s) where it is in the public interest to prosecute

 

[30907]

Yes it was payg.

Thanks. And does he have his own 16-17 photocard?

 

[Sam71]

Yes he has his own but he took his brothers by mistake on that day...

 

[Sam71]

I would politely ask TFL about their youth prosecutions policy as you are very confused about the issue of the SPJN at the same time as stating again you want to make things right

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/revenue-enforcement-and-prosecution-policy.pdf

5. Young Offenders 5.1 TfL will not normally prosecute any person under the age of 18 on the day of the relevant offence. This is in line with the Home Office guidelines of diverting youths away where possible, from the criminal justice system. However where the offence is of a serious nature, TfL may prosecute or in appropriate cases refer such an offence to the Police. TfL considers the following offences to be of a serious nature: a) Assaults on staff or other Public Order offences b) Criminal damage to TfL property c) Forgery and counterfeiting of TfL travel tickets and passes d) Illegal production or sale of TfL travel tickets and passes e) Repeat offences of any nature or offences committed after a previous warning. f) Breach of an injunction or Criminal Behaviour Order under the AntiSocial Behaviour Crime and Policing Act 2014. g) Any other offence(s) where it is in the public interest to prosecute

Thanks for the information .... it is helpful and I am trying to find their number but they don't have any to discuss this matter only to apply oyster. Can anyone help me where should I call and they dont have any number on the letter as well.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

his date of birth is wrong on the letter as he is still 17 but according to the letter he is 18+.

I suspect that this is the core of the matter. So while you should be prepared to challenge TfL on their application of their prosecution policy, start from the position of checking that they actually know your son's age.

Once that's understood, they may be able to reconsider not just whether to prosecute, but what real harm has been done to TfL in that one person entitled to child fares accidentally travelling on the pass of someone else also entitled to child fares is rather different from someone who should be paying adult fares trying to pay child fares.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Thanks. And does he have his own 16-17 photocard?

I suspect that this is the core of the matter. So while you should be prepared to challenge TfL on their application of their prosecution policy, start from the position of checking that they actually know your son's age.

Once that's understood, they may be able to reconsider not just whether to prosecute, but what real harm has been done to TfL in that one person entitled to child fares accidentally travelling on the pass of someone else also entitled to child fares is rather different from someone who should be paying adult fares trying to pay child fares.

If he's 17 he should not be in the adult court, full stop. Anything else is moot at this point.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Thanks for the information .... it is helpful and I am trying to find their number but they don't have any to discuss this matter only to apply oyster. Can anyone help me where should I call and they dont have any number on the letter as well.

If the SJPN notice does not have a number, then write to the address on the SJPN explaining the issue with your son's age. I'm sure others will along with details of the TfL address or number.

 

[ukkid]

If he's 17 he should not be in the adult court, full stop. Anything else is moot at this point.

Exactly. The op needs to phone/write to the court and insist the matter is withdrawn. Thats it. BTW the (anyway unlikely) chance that TFl resubmit to a youth court completely disappears if the incident occurred more than or close to six months ago Tfl.

If the OP is finding it too
difficult they can phone/visit their local magistrates counter. Or they can go to a local high street solicitor and ask them to contact the relevant offices, though this will cost.

 

[Sam71]

Hi I called the court and they told me to call and email tfl and tell them the situation so I called tfl and told the lady that my son is 17. Now she is asking for the proof which I am going to send today. But she also said that the case is already hone to the court .. this and that. .. I am more worried now she wasn't helpful at all.

 

[ukkid]

Doesn't matter what she says, its their fault. You may Inform her if they don't withdraw the summons and you have to employ a solicitor to resolve it, you will be seeking costs.

You can ask the court for an email address (there is normally an enquiries one) and tell them you want to speak to the justices clerk if they are being difficult . You can email TFL and the court jointly and tell he is under 18 with proof and mention you want the justices clerk to look into this.

 

[Sam71]

Doesn't matter what she says, its their fault. You may Inform her if they don't withdraw the summons and you have to employ a solicitor to resolve it, you will be seeking costs.

You can ask the court for an email address (there is normally an enquiries one) and tell them you want to speak to the justices clerk if they are being difficult . You can email TFL and the court jointly and tell he is under 18 with proof and mention you want the justices clerk to look into this.

Ok ... thanks for the help ....

 

[Sam71]

Hi everyone.... the tfl has withdrawn the case.... it is a big relief... and thanku so much all of u for ur help.... thanks once again

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks for letting us know.

 

[Ubul]

I think it's crucial to start communicating with the TOC at the earliest opportunity because that's the only way to get things resolved. Admin errors do happen.