1920 Great Eastern Railway - novel help!

[paulkerensa]

Hi fine folk of this forum. I wonder if I could beg assistance for a novel I'm writing? I know very little about trains alas... but I have a scene set on a 1920 train from Liverpool St to Chelmsford. Great Eastern then. I have just 2 questions - and I've googled but can't find a definitive answer...

Firstly, who would be the staff member walking down the train with the names of stops? Train guard or conductor?

Secondly, a first class carriage of a Great Eastern Railway train in June 1920... would that be compartments, or one open carriage? I've been looking for pictures but not finding much!

Thanks in advance, sorry to trouble, very much appreciated.

 

[Bevan Price]

IF anyone walked down the train, it would have been a guard. But more likely would have been someone on the platform (probably a porter) shouting the station name as a train arrived.

I think that compartment stock was almost universal historically.

 

[Gloster]

I am definitely not an expert on the GER, but I would doubt that a member of staff would go though the train announcing the stops. That said, the guard would probably stay in his van, but on expresses a ticket collector (*) might go through the train checking the tickets, telling people for branch lines where to change and giving some information about stops.

If the train is an express, then I would expect the coach to be a corridor one with side compartments. If a local one, then there might be no corridor. My feeling (I am more interested in goods wagons) is that open carriages were not very common until the 1930s

* - The job might have another title on the GER.

Have you tried .gersociety.org.uk or .lner.info ?

EDIT: Already we have disagreement, but I do admit that I am not a GER expert.

 

[Magdalia]

Liverpool Street was and is a terminal station, so a train for Chelmsford (or any other destination) would be starting from there.

The Great Eastern Railway famously had ornate wrought iron barrier lines at most of its terminal stations, including Liverpool Street. These still exist at Hertford East and Clacton. Even in 1920 I expect that the GER had some form of departure boards at the barrier, where tickets would also be checked. It would be the ticket checker on the barrier who would ensure that passengers did not get on the wrong train.

In 1920 Liverpool Street was already a big station with 18 platforms. Furthermore it had a peculiar layout, which lasted until the 1980s, with the "East side" and the "West side" operating semi-independently, a but like the two parts of Victoria today. But platforms 9 and 10 in the middle were significantly longer than the others, effectively dividing the station into two parts, and breaching the barrier line. Given that Liverpool Street was such a big station, how your character navigates their way through it will depend hugely on how they arrive there. I suggest that you look at some pictures to get an idea of what it was like.

I assume that you are aware that Chelmsford is also an unusual station with the platforms on a viaduct high above the town. There are a lot of stairs between the platforms and the street.

I would also recommend that you look at the Great Eastern Railway Society (GERS) website. They have a huge catalogued archive which is housed in the Essex Record Office. Coincidentally this is in Chelmsford. An Archives and Records Association card will get you in. A day trip to Chelmsford by train to do some GERS archive research is just what you need!

 

[paulkerensa]

Thanks all for this - already ample great info so far, and it's changing how I'm writing it.

It's just for one short chapter, but I'm keen to get it right, especially as it's a real-life event: the trip taken by Dame Nellie Melba, Daily Mail owner Lord Northcliffe and others on the way to give the first public broadcast on June 15th 1920. (The book, called Auntie and Uncles, is on the BBC origin story.)

It's a group of ten, bound to be in first class (so I imagine three compartments), and we're probably mid-trip having left Liverpool Street (but thanks Magdalia for the details! Makes me want to write an extra chapter there now...). I'm imagining that we've left London, nearing Brentwood.

I understand these may have been 'jazz' trains (or they may have come in just after), so named because of the coloured stripes denoting first class etc (but presumably only visible from outside - the scene will be in the train throughout).

I'll look into the GERS site too. Thanks!

 

[30907]

A 1922 Bradshaw was reprinted many years ago, so I can give a reasonable idea of the train service.Chelmsford was served by a mix of express services and stopping trains, but not by the "Jazz" suburban services.

I would assume your party would have chosen an express (they took 45-50 min); there was a 10.12 to Yarmouth ("with 3rd Class Pullman Car"), a12.36 and 3.23 to Walton and Clacton, and a 3.18 to Felixstowe (which even carried a Restaurant Car, as did some later trains). All were non stop to Chelmsford.

I am not an expert on the GER, but going by other companies I think it quite likely that only the 3.18 had corridor coaches gangwayed to each other; the others might have had a short side corridor connecting 2-3 first class compartments to a lavatory, or individual compartments with or without their own lavatory.

Your group would have required two compartments, possibly 3 with the side-corridor design. It is even possible that they travelled in a private saloon attached to one of the trains, but those were pretty much the only open coaches at the time.

Unless it was a full corridor train, I doubt they would have seen a member of staff (Guard or Travelling Ticket Inspector/Collector) en route.

 

[paulkerensa]

A 1922 Bradshaw was reprinted many years ago, so I can give a reasonable idea of the train service.Chelmsford was served by a mix of express services and stopping trains, but not by the "Jazz" suburban services.

I would assume your party would have chosen an express (they took 45-50 min); there was a 10.12 to Yarmouth ("with 3rd Class Pullman Car"), a12.36 and 3.23 to Walton and Clacton, and a 3.18 to Felixstowe (which even carried a Restaurant Car, as did some later trains). All were non stop to Chelmsford.

I am not an expert on the GER, but going by other companies I think it quite likely that only the 3.18 had corridor coaches gangwayed to each other; the others might have had a short side corridor connecting 2-3 first class compartments to a lavatory, or individual compartments with or without their own lavatory.

Your group would have required two compartments, possibly 3 with the side-corridor design. It is even possible that they travelled in a private saloon attached to one of the trains, but those were pretty much the only open coaches at the time.

Unless it was a full corridor train, I doubt they would have seen a member of staff (Guard or Travelling Ticket Inspector/Collector) en route.

Very helpful, thank you! Splitting the group of 10 into 3 would help me narratively, as they're 3 different groups (a 5, a 3 and a 2 - I might split them up into 4, 4, 2 so the fivesome aren't too squished).

Goot to know re train staff too - that's fine, I can dismiss that character!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I used that 1922 reprint last year when researching the Thompson- Bywaters case - located in Ilford with Manor Park connections. It is excellent and well detailed.

Chelmsford would / did have a very good service , and in those days Chelmsford was developing from a modest "county" town to the home of Marconi , and other industries and later on attracted commuter traffics. It most certainly not "Jazz service" - the latter was no further than Shenfield on the Great Eastern main line.

Liverpool St had a magnificent train departure screen (a wooden edifice , which was saved on the station regeneration back in the 1980's) , this was hand operated by station staff and gave a satisfactory clatter as the individual destination plates came into place. Apart from that , there would have been what were called "finger boards" at platform level guiding passengers to the train.

In those days , main line train would have been seen off by at least a Station Inspector , possibly the Duty / Assistant Station Manager - and a good number of platform staff / porters.

The station had a very distinctive atmosphere - always busy (very busy in the commuting times) , a veritable Cathedral of Steam , and nicely captured over the years in some moody photographs - whilst steam and coal smoke would have been controlled as much as possible , Great Eastern may still have some engines in grey wartime livery , but all would have been recognised by the very distinctive Westinghouse air pumps , the sound of which was distinctive as they cut in and out to maintain the braking pressure. The train departure would have been unmistakable , as the very steep climb up to the viaduct level at Bethnal Green was slow and noisy , where an unmistakable vista over the East End rooftops would be noted (and speed increased) .....

Good luck.

 

[Gloster]

In those days , main line train would have been seen off by at least a Station Inspector , possibly the Duty / Assistant Station Manager - and a good number of platform staff / porters.


Good luck.

Methinks it would have been Assistant Station Master.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Methinks it would have been Assistant Station Master.

Sorry - failed to go back in time there. But "Yes" - suitably gold braided cap on head .

Lord Northfield may have yearned for a smoking compartment , to enjoy a cigar (Gentlemen would not smoke cigarettes generally ) , but Dame Melba would not probably have appreciated that.!!!

 

[AM9]

If it helps to set the scene, here's a picture of Liver[pool St East Side in 1920. The two trains in the immediate foreground are standing on the extended tracks by the platforms 9 & 10 which you can see extend beyond the P1-8 gateline. Just google Great Eastern Railway 1920 and click on 'Images' to get plenty of useful pictures.
This picture shows the general station area from the air.

 

[Magdalia]

It most certainly not "Jazz service" - the latter was no further than Shenfield on the Great Eastern main line.

The Jazz wasn't on the Main Line, it went to and from Enfield Town and Chingford, using the low numbered platforms on the west side which had engine docks at the outer ends.

Bonavia's book "The Cambridge Line" has a picture of a Great Eastern Railway departure board for Enfield Town and Chingford departures.

I remember the big old wooden train departure board in the west side train shed but I can't find a date for when it was installed.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The Jazz wasn't on the Main Line, it went to and from Enfield Town and Chingford, using the low numbered platforms on the west side which had engine docks at the outer ends.

Bonavia's book "The Cambridge Line" has a picture of a Great Eastern Railway departure board for Enfield Town and Chingford departures.

I remember the big old wooden train departure board in the west side train shed but I can't find a date for when it was installed.

Yes , understand - but the GE probably recast the "main" suburban services to accomodate the truly impressive services into Liverpool St.

Anyone who stresses the wonder of 24 tph in London , needs to appreciate what was done in steam hauled , gas lit , mechanically signalled operations of the day. How Stratford managed with flat crossings is to me very impressive. None of this "straight up and down working" - services terminating at Ilford , Chadwell Heath etc in the high peaks , + workings into Fenchurch St off the Hainault loop must have been a sight to behold.

But then the Underground managed up to 40 tph on key routes - with in service uncoupling and even 2 track skip-stopping services.

On top of that , freight was not forgotten either.

 

[Magdalia]

Yes , understand - but the GE probably recast the "main" suburban services to accomodate the truly impressive services into Liverpool St.

Anyone who stresses the wonder of 24 tph in London , needs to appreciate what was done in steam hauled , gas lit , mechanically signalled operations of the day. How Stratford managed with flat crossings is to me very impressive. None of this "straight up and down working" - services terminating at Ilford , Chadwell Heath etc in the high peaks , + workings into Fenchurch St off the Hainault loop must have been a sight to behold.

But then the Underground managed up to 40 tph on key routes - with in service uncoupling and even 2 track skip-stopping services.

On top of that , freight was not forgotten either.

Absolutely. The Shenfield service did do 24 tph, but I think only after electrification. As it happens, I've just given some details of the 1974 Shenfield service here:

Shenfield Metro before TfL Rail

I am fascinated by the operation of the "Shenfield Metro" Shenfield - Liverpool Street service (now extended to Paddington and becomes part of Elizabeth line). It is now basically a tube line in all but name, with the 9-car 345 trains all crush-loaded in peak hours running every 4 to 5 minutes...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[PeterC]

Sorry - failed to go back in time there. But "Yes" - suitably gold braided cap on head .

Lord Northfield may have yearned for a smoking compartment , to enjoy a cigar (Gentlemen would not smoke cigarettes generally ) , but Dame Melba would not probably have appreciated that.!!!

If ladies were present it would be normal to smoke in the corridor.

 

[paulkerensa]

Huge thanks for all the replies. Really helpful. I wish I were writing more about this area now! As it is, my characters will be largely stuck on the train in the first class carriages. I'll see if I can refer back to Liverpool St station and the climb to Bethnal Green though... wonderful!