Shenfield Metro before TfL Rail

[miklcct]

I am fascinated by the operation of the "Shenfield Metro" Shenfield - Liverpool Street service (now extended to Paddington and becomes part of Elizabeth line). It is now basically a tube line in all but name, with the 9-car 345 trains all crush-loaded in peak hours running every 4 to 5 minutes, on its own dedicated tracks.

I have read that, in the Greater Anglia days, the line was operated by class 315 trains, with 7 trains per hour in peak hours and 6 trains per hour off-peak, compared to 12 peak / 8 off-peak now.

How did this line cope with the peak demand by then when it only provided less than half of the current capacity, considering the class 315 trains were shorter and had less standing space than the current trains? Did the line have exclusive use on the slow lines on the Great Eastern Main Line between Liverpool Street and Shenfield? Also, how was the Sunday service back then?

 

[StephenHunter]

The 315s had more seats per carriage than the 345s, which helped a bit. But they were still busy.

 

[NSE]

Also worth noting that Stratford wasn’t such a big destination for much of their time which would reduce the demand some what.

 

[Bald Rick]

I am fascinated by the operation of the "Shenfield Metro" Shenfield - Liverpool Street service (now extended to Paddington and becomes part of Elizabeth line). It is now basically a tube line in all but name, with the 9-car 345 trains all crush-loaded in peak hours running every 4 to 5 minutes, on its own dedicated tracks.

I have read that, in the Greater Anglia days, the line was operated by class 315 trains, with 7 trains per hour in peak hours and 6 trains per hour off-peak, compared to 12 peak / 8 off-peak now.

How did this line cope with the peak demand by then when it only provided less than half of the current capacity, considering the class 315 trains were shorter and had less standing space than the current trains? Did the line have exclusive use on the slow lines on the Great Eastern Main Line between Liverpool Street and Shenfield? Also, how was the Sunday service back then?

It was 6 an hour off peak, and 15 an hour in the peak.

Before 1999/2000(?) some of the off peak service was extended to Southend, and some stations had fewer trains.

 

[Magdalia]

I have a 1974 WTT when the peak evening service was 24 tph with 9 car class 306s (Thameslink eat your heart out). The service ran on a 10 minute cycle as follows:

platform 18 xxx8 Stratford, Romford, Gidea Park only
platform 17 xxx0 Stratford, Ilford, all to Shenfield
platform 16 xxx2 Stratford, Ilford, all to Gidea Park
platform 15 xxx4 all to Ilford

Harold Wood and Brentwood were also served by a Southend Victoria train every 10 minutes from platform 11 at xxx4 running non stop from Stratford to Harold Wood and crossing from the Main to the Electric at Gidea Park.

Off peak in contrast was 3 tph all stations to Gidea Park plus 3 tph to Southend Victoria calling Stratford, Ilford, Romford and all stations, electric line all the way.

In those days a lot of journeys that now go by other routes interchanging at Stratford had to be made via Liverpool Street. The only significant interchange at Stratford was with the Central Line.

 

[StephenHunter]

Mind you, the 306s didn't have inter-carriage gangways, let along inter-unit ones. Although they were sliding door.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have a 1974 WTT when the peak evening service was 24 tph with 9 car class 306s (Thameslink eat your heart out). The service ran on a 10 minute cycle as follows:

platform 18 xxx8 Stratford, Romford, Gidea Park only
platform 17 xxx0 Stratford, Ilford, all to Shenfield
platform 16 xxx2 Stratford, Ilford, all to Gidea Park
platform 15 xxx4 all to Ilford

Harold Wood and Brentwood were also served by a Southend Victoria train every 10 minutes from platform 11 at xxx4 running non stop from Stratford to Harold Wood and crossing from the Main to the Electric at Gidea Park.

Off peak in contrast was 3 tph all stations to Gidea Park plus 3 tph to Southend Victoria calling Stratford, Ilford, Romford and all stations, electric line all the way.

In those days a lot of journeys that now go by other routes interchanging at Stratford had to be made via Liverpool Street. The only significant interchange at Stratford was with the Central Line.

the xxx8 must have gone main line from somewhere near Stratford to at least Seven Kings, otherwise it would be on block to all three in front of it. It would have dropped in behind the Southend.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think there's anything to prevent Greater Anglia from using the Great Eastern 'Electric' lines usually used by XR trains? They might need to sometimes, especially Sundays or Bank Holidays.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think there's anything to prevent Greater Anglia from using the Great Eastern 'Electric' lines usually used by XR trains? They might need to sometimes, especially Sundays or Bank Holidays.

indeed, they are timetabled to on many occasions!

 

[christopher]

Painful memories of 4 car units working during the peak in the days of ONE

 

[LLivery]

I am fascinated by the operation of the "Shenfield Metro" Shenfield - Liverpool Street service (now extended to Paddington and becomes part of Elizabeth line). It is now basically a tube line in all but name, with the 9-car 345 trains all crush-loaded in peak hours running every 4 to 5 minutes, on its own dedicated tracks.

I have read that, in the Greater Anglia days, the line was operated by class 315 trains, with 7 trains per hour in peak hours and 6 trains per hour off-peak, compared to 12 peak / 8 off-peak now.

How did this line cope with the peak demand by then when it only provided less than half of the current capacity, considering the class 315 trains were shorter and had less standing space than the current trains? Did the line have exclusive use on the slow lines on the Great Eastern Main Line between Liverpool Street and Shenfield? Also, how was the Sunday service back then?

In First Great Eastern days, off peak, I'm sure a few trains per hour would skip Maryland, Forest Gate and Manor Park (I've got a 2004 timetable somewhere).

By in large, One/NXEA and Greater Anglia were 6tph all stations off peak. In the peak, from the top of my head, was:
6tph - Liv St - Shenfield
6tph - Liv St - Gidea Park
3tph? - Liv St - Ilford (high peak, until the bay closed).
The Shenfields and Gidea Parks were skip-stops.

The peaks were rammed. Off peak, especially weekends were very busy - it truly was used like a metro. The only route I'd say is relatively comparable now is Waterloo - Raynes Park.

 

[AM9]

I have a 1974 WTT when the peak evening service was 24 tph with 9 car class 306s (Thameslink eat your heart out). The service ran on a 10 minute cycle as follows:

platform 18 xxx8 Stratford, Romford, Gidea Park only
platform 17 xxx0 Stratford, Ilford, all to Shenfield
platform 16 xxx2 Stratford, Ilford, all to Gidea Park
platform 15 xxx4 all to Ilford

Harold Wood and Brentwood were also served by a Southend Victoria train every 10 minutes from platform 11 at xxx4 running non stop from Stratford to Harold Wood and crossing from the Main to the Electric at Gidea Park.

Off peak in contrast was 3 tph all stations to Gidea Park plus 3 tph to Southend Victoria calling Stratford, Ilford, Romford and all stations, electric line all the way.

In those days a lot of journeys that now go by other routes interchanging at Stratford had to be made via Liverpool Street. The only significant interchange at Stratford was with the Central Line.

In 1974 I was commuting on the GEML from Colchester to Ilford. That was an adventure on a bad day because the integration of the three streams, (GE Main Line, Southend and Shenfield services) was a work of art.
As well as the services that you have mentioned above, in every 10 minute group there was:

a fast Southend train, first stop Billericay then all stations to Southend. This 8-car set was looped by the fast Sothend whilst it was on the electrics between Gidea Park and Shenfield​

A fast main line service - class 47 +10 - to Norwich & Yarmouth (17:30): Clacton & Walton 10 car class 309 consist (17:00 & 17:20): Clacton (1F78 the fastest train of the day a 12-car 309 consist with over 4500hp available, 17:40): Lowestoft - class 37 ro 47 + 10 (16:50)​

Intermediate Main Line services to Witham or Colchester in most 10 minute dwells with two of them stopping at Shenfield & Ingatestone 17:22 & 17:42. They were sometimes looped at Witham.​

Standing at Shenfield waiting for the slow (ex LST 17:22) was a combination of awe and hope that it would all work as planned.

 

[Horizon22]

In First Great Eastern days, off peak, I'm sure a few trains per hour would skip Maryland, Forest Gate and Manor Park (I've got a 2004 timetable somewhere).

By in large, One/NXEA and Greater Anglia were 6tph all stations off peak. In the peak, from the top of my head, was:
6tph - Liv St - Shenfield
6tph - Liv St - Gidea Park
3tph? - Liv St - Ilford (high peak, until the bay closed).
The Shenfields and Gidea Parks were skip-stops.

The peaks were rammed. Off peak, especially weekends were very busy - it truly was used like a metro. The only route I'd say is relatively comparable now is Waterloo - Raynes Park.

Yes one thing TFL have cemented is the complete standardisation of the timetable. Everything is all stops, even if some stuff continues to terminate at Gidea Park in the peak. Still as rammed as it was back then as you say.

 

[AM9]

Painful memories of 4 car units working during the peak in the days of ONE

Much more painful in the '70s with Mr Buckton's work to rule. There would be two cancellations (8 or 12-car scheduled) followed by a single 4-car 305/307/308. There were times that I squeezed along with 23 others into a songle compartment, (that's 6 sitting on each side and twelve standing holding onto the the luggage rack rail). According to a newspaper article at the time there was a claim of 18 standing making a total of 30. Thats 2.5 x the seating..

 

[Horizon22]

I don't think there's anything to prevent Greater Anglia from using the Great Eastern 'Electric' lines usually used by XR trains? They might need to sometimes, especially Sundays or Bank Holidays.

Nothing at all, same on GWML with GWR.

 

[AM9]

Yes one thing TFL have cemented is the complete standardisation of the timetable. Everything is all stops, even if some stuff continues to terminate at Gidea Park in the peak. Still as rammed as it was back then as you say.

The GEML has been named as the busiest commuter line in the world for several years in the 20th century.

 

[PeterC]

the xxx8 must have gone main line from somewhere near Stratford to at least Seven Kings, otherwise it would be on block to all three in front of it. It would have dropped in behind the Southend.

The xxx8 originally switched to the fastafter Stratford and back to the electric just before Romford. At some point they switched it to stay on the electric, I thought that was before 74 unless they decided it was a bad idea and changed back. I was working locally in 74 and using the bus not the train.

 

[Taunton]

We had a discussion on this (several of the same participants!) a while ago here, including posting some old timetables. Before 1980 it was run with 9-car 306 units, in addition there were services with outer suburban stock to Southend etc which crossed to the Electric lines to serve various points at the outer end, which are now just handled by the Elizabeth. I wonder what the actual passenger numbers were then compared to now. The intensity seemed to fall off into the 1980s, the service was reduced, and the resignalling couldn't handle what the older one did. Not sure which way round these points happened. The 315s, ordered initially wholly for the Shenfield service, then got steadily redeployed onto the Chingford/Enfield services as well, and later still even did Hertford East.

the xxx8 must have gone main line from somewhere near Stratford to at least Seven Kings, otherwise it would be on block to all three in front of it. It would have dropped in behind the Southend.

This was indeed the case, it crossed back later on. Occasionally in disruption it could just not be got across to the fasts, so would just have to jog-trot along behind, and be late. There was also considerable use of the fasts, morning and evening, by contra-peak direction trains running nonstop ECS back to the starting point for another load.

The differential calling patterns were more about spreading the load rather than offering a fast service. In the considerable majority of cases it did all work as planned.

 

[Magdalia]

the xxx8 must have gone main line from somewhere near Stratford to at least Seven Kings, otherwise it would be on block to all three in front of it. It would have dropped in behind the Southend.

No the xxx8 was Electric Line all the way. As you say they were "on block", and at 2 minute headways. Don't forget that the Ilford terminator used the bay platform. The xxx8 couldn't get out onto the Main Line without obstructing the fastest trains of the peak to Norwich and Clacton that departed Liverpool Street at xxx0, followed by an xxx2 to Colchester or Witham.

Also the signal spacing was very close, with triple double yellows between a green and a single yellow.

 

[Taunton]

I just go on how it was described in the magazine article quoted in the other thread, with trains crossed from Electric to Main, and later back. There were probably different arrangements over time. Bear in mind that the Down Main also handled Cambridge fasts, chugging up the bank out of Liverpool Street behind a Class 37 before turning off at Bethnal Green, which created a break in the Main traffic. In fact I seem to recall these left at xxx6; the electric leaving two minutes later would be pretty much level by Bethnal Green.

I once read that the performance of the 306s was slightly throttled after conversion to 25kV. I do recall some notable acceleration by the units in Manchester on the Glossop line, which were the same but still on DC, if the train was late.

Other thread, discussing this :

Great Eastern services before electrification to Norwich and Class 86?

I grew up close to Stowmarket (Suffolk) in the 1980s and I'm interested in what trains would have run through at this time. What locomotives / carriages were used on GEML services between Liverpool Street and Norwich before the class 86 locomotives were introduced upon electrification around...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Bald Rick]

Also the signal spacing was very close, with triple double yellows between a green and a single yellow.

There still are many examples of consecutive YY On the E Lines.

Re the xxx8, the one ahead using the bay at Ilford would have been on block straight after Maryland. I’m convince it went main line, and I’ve read accounts that say it did.

 

[AM9]

No the xxx8 was Electric Line all the way. As you say they were "on block", and at 2 minute headways. Don't forget that the Ilford terminator used the bay platform. The xxx8 couldn't get out onto the Main Line without obstructing the fastest trains of the peak to Norwich and Clacton that departed Liverpool Street at xxx0, followed by an xxx2 to Colchester or Witham.

Also the signal spacing was very close, with triple double yellows between a green and a single yellow.

That's an interesting post. I don't remember any 306s passing Seven Kings non-stop but as my linking services at Shenfield were 30 mins apart, (17:40 & 18:10) I always aimed explicitly for the xxx7s which were the all stoppers. Fortunately, they usually ran as booked but I was often aware of a Gidea Park terminator just in front of us, sometimes seeing the last few passengers heading for the stairs as we pulled into GDP. There were also times when the slow Southends were late and we had to wait at a signal just short of the junction by the 1A127 bridge.
I also believed that the only viable crossing points (electric to/from main) were those that were already in use in the peaks, i.e Bow junction, Gidea Park east and the throat of Shenfield. They were all full two track crossovers although the Southends only needed to get to platform 4. The Forest Gate east junction was aslo a full two track crossover but it seemed too slow for swapping between the main lines in the peak, being mostly used by freight on its way to/from Tilbury. Interestingly, the Southend branch off the mains junction I see is now single lead.

There still are many examples of consecutive YY On the E Lines.

Re the xxx8, the one ahead using the bay at Ilford would have been on block straight after Maryland. I’m convince it went main line, and I’ve read accounts that say it did.

I never saw a 306 at platforms 9/10/11 in the peaks so it would have cause unnecessary issues getting one across from P8 (the down electric) but if one did, it would be easy getting it into P5 at Ilford as it could have used the flyover north side carriage loop that avoids the flyover dropping straight into P5, (all gone now).

 

[Snow1964]

I also believed that the only viable crossing points (electric to/from main) were those that were already in use in the peaks, i.e Bow junction, Gidea Park east and the throat of Shenfield. They were all full two track crossovers although the Southends only needed to get to platform 4. The Forest Gate east junction was aslo a full two track crossover but it seemed too slow for swapping between the main lines in the peak, being mostly used by freight on its way to/from Tilbury. Interestingly, the Southend branch off the mains junction I see is now single lead.

There were lots of crossovers, as the track layout was update of the 1930s quadrupling at outer end and a switch around of track layout at inner end (which had allowed the cross platform interchanges with Central line to be built). Although most were 25mph or less.

Some were quite slow, but everything would have been double lead, and at both Bethnal Green and near Stratford where there were 6 lines were actually some quadruple lead crossovers.

The Bethnal Green bank area was simplified in late 1980s and all the 20-25mph parallel crossovers replaced by faster single lead ladder crossovers

 

[306024]

A discussion on a proper railway at last!

Before privatisation and the start of First Great Eastern, the off peak service was every 20 minutes all stations to Gidea Park, and every 20 minutes Stratford, Ilford and Romford and all to Southend on the electric lines. Very slow to Southend so to semi-compete with the London Tilbury and Southend Railway it was decided to put the Southend trains on the main line and remove calls between Stratford and Shenfield (Maybe some called Romford, can't remember).
This made space to double the frequency for Seven Kings, Goodmayes, Chadwell Heath, Harold Wood and Brentwood by running a 10 minute metro service (and stave off complaints).

Except it wasn't exactly every 10 minutes from Liverpool St, as two trains omitted Maryland, Forest gate and Manor Park. Looking at the May 2000 Unit diagrams (sad what you keep!) departures were 03/10/20/33/40/50 from Liv St. The 03 and 33 missed those three stations to give an every 10 minute service beyond Ilford. The xx.33 was extended to Southminster.

Regarding 306s on the main line in the peak, it depends what year you are talking about. @ChiefPlanner sent me an excellent article from October 1964 Modern Railways by Brian Perrin. Peak pattern for departures from Liv St were in 6 groups:
A. All to Shenfield at 03/13/23/33/43/53
B. Stratford Ilford at 01/21/41
C. Stratford, Seven Kings and all to Gidea Park at 09/19/29/39/49/59
D. Romford, Gidea Park only at 07/17/27/37/47/57
E. Stratford, Harold Wood and all to Southend at 02/12/22/32/42/52
F. Billericay and all to Southend at 04/14/24/34/44/54

Groups A, B and C ran EL throughout
Group D ran EL to Stratford, ML to Romford, EL to Gidea Park (the service in question, assuming they were 306s)
Group E ran ML to Gidea Park then EL
Group F ran ML throughout

Of course in those days there were far fewer long distance commuters on the Colchester route.

 

[miklcct]

A discussion on a proper railway at last!

Before privatisation and the start of First Great Eastern, the off peak service was every 20 minutes all stations to Gidea Park, and every 20 minutes Stratford, Ilford and Romford and all to Southend on the electric lines. Very slow to Southend so to semi-compete with the London Tilbury and Southend Railway it was decided to put the Southend trains on the main line and remove calls between Stratford and Shenfield (Maybe some called Romford, can't remember).
This made space to double the frequency for Seven Kings, Goodmayes, Chadwell Heath, Harold Wood and Brentwood by running a 10 minute metro service (and stave off complaints).

Except it wasn't exactly every 10 minutes from Liverpool St, as two trains omitted Maryland, Forest gate and Manor Park. Looking at the May 2000 Unit diagrams (sad what you keep!) departures were 03/10/20/33/40/50 from Liv St. The 03 and 33 missed those three stations to give an every 10 minute service beyond Ilford. The xx.33 was extended to Southminster.

Regarding 306s on the main line in the peak, it depends what year you are talking about. @ChiefPlanner sent me an excellent article from October 1964 Modern Railways by Brian Perrin. Peak pattern for departures from Liv St were in 6 groups:
A. All to Shenfield at 03/13/23/33/43/53
B. Stratford Ilford at 01/21/41
C. Stratford, Seven Kings and all to Gidea Park at 09/19/29/39/49/59
D. Romford, Gidea Park only at 07/17/27/37/47/57
E. Stratford, Harold Wood and all to Southend at 02/12/22/32/42/52
F. Billericay and all to Southend at 04/14/24/34/44/54

Groups A, B and C ran EL throughout
Group D ran EL to Stratford, ML to Romford, EL to Gidea Park (the service in question, assuming they were 306s)
Group E ran ML to Gidea Park then EL
Group F ran ML throughout

Of course in those days there were far fewer long distance commuters on the Colchester route.

Didn't the planner in that era know that running trains uniformly gives the absolutely maximum capacity? Since when has the service become a true metro where all trains stop all all stations running frequently on the electric line?

 

[Taunton]

I seem to recall from that 1964 article (which I also have, somewhere, deep behind all the attic junk) that there were just local signalboxes along the semi-automatically signalled lines, and that some of the crossovers were still mechanical levers, with quite a few needing to be heaved over for crossover moves, including ones for flank protection, and all had to be heaved back afterwards. Did the article have a track plan showing all the crossovers?

 

[306024]

It did indeed have a track plan. Boxes were:
Liverpool St, Bethnal Green, Mile End, Bow Jn, Stratford, Foret Gate Jn, Ilford station, Ilford Car Sheds, Goodmayes, Chadwell Heath, Romford, Gidea Park, Brentwood and Shenfield.
Junctions between running lines that have now been removed at Seven Kings (now single lead) Goodmayes, Chadwell Heath, Romford (now single lead), Gidea Park station, and Brentwood.
Time to clear the attic!

 

[Magdalia]

Re the xxx8, the one ahead using the bay at Ilford would have been on block straight after Maryland. I’m convince it went main line, and I’ve read accounts that say it did.

I have the relevant WTT. It says EL for the xxx8s. As said previously, other trains prevented them going ML. They were booked to pass Ilford 2 minutes after the terminating train that had departed at xxx4.

 

[nw1]

One thing that strikes me about this line (during late BR days, let's say 1980-95) is how incredibly frequent the peak service was, even compared to other routes out of London at the time.

To add to the above, here is the pattern from 1982 from Timetable World (Table 5):

Off peak 16, 36, 56 - all to Gidea Park - second class only.
Also 09,29,49 to Southend Victoria - first and second class. Likely to use the slow line as they didn't catch up the previous service 13 mins before. Stratford, Ilford, Romford and then all.
05 - Ilford, Romford, Shenfield (Colchester). First and second class. Fast line presumably
32 - Romford and Shenfield (Braintree). First and second class. Fast line presumably
Also xx30 to Norwich and xx50 to Clacton (both non-stop over the Table 5 section).

In the peak there was a very considerable ramp-up, similar to observations above, with the xxx5 to Shenfield (omitting stops between Stratford and Ilford) then an xxx7 / xxx9 pair to Gidea Park (all stations). Meantime the Southend line had one train every 5 minutes, the xxx2 as described above by @306024 and the xxx7 fast to Billericay.

While the Colchester line had only 4tph of any description in the off-peak, it too ramped up considerably in the peak with departures at xxx0 (variously Norwich, Clacton or Colchester) and xxx2 (variously Colchester, Witham or Braintree). Skip stops happened rather a lot, presumably to maximise the tph.

So the GEML seemed to have an incredibly intensive peak service even by the standards of the era.

There were also two xxx2 services, a Colchester line and the "slower" Southend. Presumably the latter started out on the slow lines and switched to the fast lines after Stratford.

One of my regrets is not visiting the GEML during the 80s, as it appeared to have an incredible variety of EMU types.

 

[Magdalia]

Regarding 306s on the main line in the peak, it depends what year you are talking about. @ChiefPlanner sent me an excellent article from October 1964 Modern Railways by Brian Perrin. Peak pattern for departures from Liv St were in 6 groups:
A. All to Shenfield at 03/13/23/33/43/53
B. Stratford Ilford at 01/21/41
C. Stratford, Seven Kings and all to Gidea Park at 09/19/29/39/49/59
D. Romford, Gidea Park only at 07/17/27/37/47/57
E. Stratford, Harold Wood and all to Southend at 02/12/22/32/42/52
F. Billericay and all to Southend at 04/14/24/34/44/54

Groups A, B and C ran EL throughout
Group D ran EL to Stratford, ML to Romford, EL to Gidea Park (the service in question, assuming they were 306s)
Group E ran ML to Gidea Park then EL
Group F ran ML throughout

I have the 1964 WTT too! I'll follow your terminology.

The only differences I can see are:

group D ran Main Line from Bow to Goodmayes
group F departed at xxx5 in the WTT but xxx4 in the PTT

The EL platform working at Liverpool Street was similar to 1974: group D were platform 18, group C platform 17, group F platform 16 and group A platform 15.