1963 Southampton to Wembley Part 3

[Union St]

Hello, I was chatting with IronDuke, 30907, Bevan, Randy, Taunton, ChiefPlanner, Dr Hoo and a few others months ago about a novel I'm writing. I've tried to accumulate all the information you were so nice to give me in the attached Chapter 12. Sorry to say, this part is 5000 words, and it needs a lot of chiseling, melding, re-jigging and editing, but if you have a chance could you glance through it to see if I have generally got the train bits right? Or, if I missed anything obvious, that would be helpful too.
The train is Wadebridge.

Many, many thanks.

 

[30907]

Had a quick look: you've got Sidney as an "engineer" bottom of p5, and the guard didn't confirm the train formation and weight before departure.
Also, were pigeon racers common in South London? Genuine question, my part of London was too posh, but I associate them much more with the north. Dogs, perhaps?

 

[Union St]

Thank you, three excellent points. My error on the engineer thing. I did consider the formation and weight prior departure. Would Sidney have known this some time earlier, at least approximately? Pigeons, right. I don't know and will have to do some research there. Good points, many thanks.

I have a question. The mail coaches, would they be TPO's with sorters inside?

 

[randyrippley]

Just some quick thoughts

Labor is spelled labour in British English

The beer would commonly just be called Courage's (best or ordinary), not John Courage. From memory the best was branded as IPA, the ordinary as BB (commonly known as Boy's Bitter - it was fairly weak)

There used to be plenty of pigeon lofts along the LSWR main line into Waterloo, so that's authentic

The pallets would have been lifted using chains and hooks, not nets.

The Ruston would have a red buffer beam - the buffer faces would be bare unfinished steel polished from wear

Werther's Originals are a German confectionary and they would have been unlikely to be popular - or even on sale in Britain in the 1960's. The "Original" name only came into use in the 1990's. A more likely branded sucking sweet would be something like Fox's Glacier Mints or Barley Sugars, or Uncle Joe's Mint Balls. At the time though most "adult" sweets were sold unbranded, weighed out into 4 ounce paper bags. Something like a mint imperial maybe. Or a liquorice or menthol "chest sweet" may be appropriate for someone working in a smoky job.

Yellow platform lights? Neon lamps wouldn't have been in use then - they would have been white incandescent lights, or possibly even still gas (can anyone confirm?)

"Cheery porters" - not convinced that sounds authentic!!!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The train guard , in charge of the the train would certainly have come forward to speak to the driver (not "engineer" !) , to confirm to him the number of vehicles , trailing weight , stopping pattern (even if it was a routine journey) and to obtain the driver's name and depot for his guard's journal. He would also have confirmed the carrying out of a full brake test before departure. (an action which would require joint action between the pair) - the driver would also carry out a running brake test soon after departure. (this is still done to the present day , and is monitored!)

Pigeons - a hugely popular working class sport , remember that areas of inner South London had not been gentrified in those days , (as they are now) , so places such as Clapham / Battersea etc , where the older terraced housing was common , would often have small gardens with pigeon lofts. (and enthusiastic "fanciers" in local pubs and social groups) .....

 

[30907]

Good points from randyrippley and I stand corrected about pigeons.

On formation/weight, yes Sid(ney?) would have an idea of the booked formation and weight, but it was his responsibility to time the train up to the permitted load, and manage the engine economically, so he needed to know. On this night it was just the bullion van, but management could add any number of vehicles up to the permitted load for the loco and length for the route. 13 bogies into Waterloo would be routinely permitted.
ChiefPlanner has said it in more detail.

Yes, the Dorchester Mails was a TPO and therefore sorters would have been onboard.

 

[Romsey]

Uncle Joe's Mint Balls were completely unknown "down south" before probably the 1970's. (That was due to Mike Harding singing about them. "Uncle Joe's Mint Balls keep you all aglow....") I remember chasing steam tours in the late 1970's / early 1980's and being asked by a terminal overseer who hailed from Wigan to get him a large bag if I could.
Everton Mints or aniseed balls are more likely sweets.

Yes there were gas lights on some stations until the 1970's. On the other hand the typical 40 watt bulb gave a pleasant yellow light when the glass was encrusted with brake block dust!

The Down and Up South Western TPOs did have on train mail sorters. In latter years London and Weymouth crews used to swap at Southampton Central at about 0120 in the morning. The Saturday night trains didn't convey TPO's and the Sunday night services - I think - conveyed TPO vehicles but there was no sorting apart from bags.

Yank Tank - no. I never heard then referred to as that. Expletive USA tank was nearer the mark.

Harbour, not Harbor

The location that a pilot was picked up varied due to wind, tide and time of day.

Cape Mail Express? No never heard of that from working in Southampton Docks. The connecting train for Union Castle Line sailings carried a "Union Castle Line " headboard.

 

[Union St]

Thank you so much, Randy! They're all good points.
1. The spelling. Yep, I know, this will be difficult. Which language to use? When it comes to it I'll let an editor make that decision. In the same manner I'm not sure what to do with dialogue, all that slang, etc. It might be too difficult to read, like Kipling
2. Courage, got it. I couldn't think of another one that might have been in use in Wandsworth at the time.
3. Pigeons - great news!
4. I read that they used wire nets, presumably for additional safety. Let me think. Maybe I'll ask someone from Union-Castle.
5. Red buffer, got it.
6. Werther's original - haha! It just seemed funny to say it. I'll use one of your alternatives.
7. Lights! Jeeze, I would never have known that!
8. Cheery porters, yes, it does sound funny - something an Englishman might say sarcastically? - perhaps I'll keep it for fun.
Thank you, thank you. I'm glad you didn't see any glaring errors with Wadebridge, so that is encouraging.
Thank you for your comments, Randy.

Sorry, I should have said this right from the beginning to anyone who reads this - I hope everyone is saying safe, and maybe we'll get through this together. It's certainly bought the world together in an obtuse way. Be safe everyone!

 

[randyrippley]

Wandsworth beer? Home of Young's Brewery, most famous of the London independent. They would still have been delivering by horse drawn drays in the 1960's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young's
They were "real" beer specialists, at the time the story is set Courage were moving toward mass-produced factory conditioned "keg" beer

Problem with using nets is double handling - the pallets would have to be lifted onto the nets with something else, then dropped then lifted again

As far as I can tell "Wellmeadow" isn't an authentic surname. There's a street of that name in Scotland, and may have been one in London but a quick search finds no evidence of personal use.

As for the sweets, on thinking about it the closest to Werthers would be a butterscotch, usually (then) sold unbranded
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterscotch

 

[Union St]

Chief, thank you so much for the details. I will incorporate the guard and the brake test. ("Engineer" really was a typo, sorry about that). If it's a TPO, how many PO men would be in the two carriages?
"Fanciers", what a great word!
Thank you so much.

Romsey, thank you for your comments.
1. Everton mints - yes, good.
2. OK, so I have a choice of gas (really?) or soot covered bulbs.
3. So, we're not sure about the sorters. I got the timetable from Dr Hoo, I think, and it fits into the story line well, but we didn't discuss the day. How many sorters would there be?
4. I thought we agreed on "Yank Tank". It's kind of superfluous, but I thought it was generally understood.
5. Spelling, yep, I know, a perennial problem. Still thinking about it.
6. Yes, pilotage, not too important, and I'm just guessing at the three hours.
7. Well, I see "Cape Mail Express" everywhere when I research Union-C, a company who I am not familiar, admittedly. Perhaps I should ask them on the Merch. site. So, importantly, the ship is NOT a Union-C ship. So, that was just background stuff - I'll let you know if I can find out.

But, many, many thanks for your comments, they are all very much appreciated. Stay safe everyone.

 

[Union St]

Randy, your # 9 - good grief, you guys are smart!
Young's beer, OK.
Yes, you are correct, wire nets WOULD mean double handling, (which IS a problem) but I read it somewhere. I will ask someone from U-C. I'm just worrying about hooks, or I would be if I was watching from the dock. I can just see them spilling.
No, correct, Wellmeadow is not an authentic name, except the street in Paisley. I just didn't think anyone would notice my little inside joke/tip of the hat to May Donoghue, the greatest litigant of 20th century common law.
Happy to take suggestions for an authentic Battersea name.
Thank you so much.

Stay safe!

 

[randyrippley]

Randy, your # 9 - good grief, you guys are smart!
Young's beer, OK.
Yes, you are correct, wire nets WOULD mean double handling, (which IS a problem) but I read it somewhere. I will ask someone from U-C. I'm just worrying about hooks, or I would be if I was watching from the dock. I can just see them spilling.
No, correct, Wellmeadow is not an authentic name, except the street in Paisley. I just didn't think anyone would notice my little inside joke/tip of the hat to May Donoghue, the greatest litigant of 20th century common law.
Happy to take suggestions for an authentic Battersea name.
Thank you so much.

Stay safe!

If you really want to play that joke you should have Wellmeadow drinking ginger beer while driving the train...

 

[6Gman]

Hello, I was chatting with IronDuke, 30907, Bevan, Randy, Taunton, ChiefPlanner, Dr Hoo and a few others months ago about a novel I'm writing. I've tried to accumulate all the information you were so nice to give me in the attached Chapter 12. Sorry to say, this part is 5000 words, and it needs a lot of chiseling, melding, re-jigging and editing, but if you have a chance could you glance through it to see if I have generally got the train bits right? Or, if I missed anything obvious, that would be helpful too.
The train is Wadebridge.

Many, many thanks.

What do you mean by "the train is Wadebridge" ?

 

[randyrippley]

What do you mean by "the train is Wadebridge" ?

he meant the train loco is Wadebridge

 

[WesternLancer]

Just some quick thoughts

Labor is spelled labour in British English

The beer would commonly just be called Courage's (best or ordinary), not John Courage. From memory the best was branded as IPA, the ordinary as BB (commonly known as Boy's Bitter - it was fairly weak)

There used to be plenty of pigeon lofts along the LSWR main line into Waterloo, so that's authentic

The pallets would have been lifted using chains and hooks, not nets.

The Ruston would have a red buffer beam - the buffer faces would be bare unfinished steel polished from wear

Werther's Originals are a German confectionary and they would have been unlikely to be popular - or even on sale in Britain in the 1960's. The "Original" name only came into use in the 1990's. A more likely branded sucking sweet would be something like Fox's Glacier Mints or Barley Sugars, or Uncle Joe's Mint Balls. At the time though most "adult" sweets were sold unbranded, weighed out into 4 ounce paper bags. Something like a mint imperial maybe. Or a liquorice or menthol "chest sweet" may be appropriate for someone working in a smoky job.

Yellow platform lights? Neon lamps wouldn't have been in use then - they would have been white incandescent lights, or possibly even still gas (can anyone confirm?)

"Cheery porters" - not convinced that sounds authentic!!!

Don't think I ever saw Uncle Joe's mint balls down south (unless I wasn't looking hard enough!).

 

[randyrippley]

"The journey continued in its unremarkable northwest direction, metrically stopping briefly at Eastleigh and Winchester"

Should be northeast?

 

[Union St]

Good evening. It must be very late in the UK.
Randy, re your # 12 - I think ginger beer would be too much. I can't imagine many people are going to see the joke. I have, perhaps, a dozen characters and no names are set in stone, but its just something I will look at later. It does sound like an old name.
Yes, Wadebridge, which I consider the best looking possible loco for the trip.
Wow, what should I do about Werthers or an alternative. Everton mints? Humbugs?

All your comments are very much appreciated.

 

[Union St]

Yes, thank you, Randy, it should be Northeast - what an error!!!!

 

[Taunton]

Uncle Joe's Mint Balls … were manufactured by a very traditional company in Wigan (William Santus Ltd). In an earlier incarnation I was a salesman for major accounting systems in Manchester, Santus was one of the established customers, who invoiced all their wholesalers etc on it, and had not upgraded to a new computer for more than 10 years. New sales manager arrived, appalled that we had let such an old system continue unchallenged, and led a team of three off the next week to meet the directors there and show us all what selling means.

Returned about 4pm, rather quiet, just each with a couple of tins of the Mint Balls …

Absolutely nothing to do with this story, of course.

 

[Union St]

Thank you, Taunton. I was just looking at Werthers and saw just how out of place that throwaway line was. When I look, it's jarring now. Thank you for your suggestions.

 

[randyrippley]

The Everton Mints idea sounds as good as anything

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you, Taunton. I was just looking at Werthers and saw just how out of place that throwaway line was. When I look, it's jarring now. Thank you for your suggestions.

am not really sure if anything wrong with this but others might have a better view than me:
"no one was going to steal a British Railways wagon"

I had it in mind from prev thread that the bullion van was basically like a passenger carriage without windows, so would we in UK refer to it as a wagon? (we'd certainly refer to a short wheelbase goods vehicle as a 'wagon' which is why I'm not sure if this is an issue of any significance.

 

[Union St]

Thank you, Lancer. Good point, bad writing by me.
What I find interesting is that 1. The brake, 2. The Bullion Van, 3. The TPOs (how many men?), 4. The passenger coaches, and 5. The tender & Loco were all separate entities without any communication while moving, right?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Welcome back, Union Street. The story is coming on well. Turned the relatively pedestrian journey to Waterloo with multiple intermediate stops into a nice suspense-builder.

Southampton Terminus had electric lighting in 1963. Some nice 'Exmouth Junction Concrete Works' standards at the platform extremities, like many Southern Region stations. So a warm incandescent glow.

Notwithstanding the previous fun in re-constructing the multiple nocturnal train and shunt moves at Southampton Terminus, the fairly straightforward description of the departure reads well.

The mention of the long 1962-3 winter and of the 'Beeching Report' publication gives the story some nice chronological anchors, especially for those of us who remember the era.

One part of the narrative that jars slightly; when I worked at Southampton the berth numbers always seemed to be spoken and written as '[Number] Berth', as in "49 Berth" rather than "Berth forty-nine". But others might have done it differently.

May have some more comments after further reflection...

 

[30907]

Thank you, Lancer. Good point, bad writing by me.
What I find interesting is that 1. The brake, 2. The Bullion Van, 3. The TPOs (how many men?), 4. The passenger coaches, and 5. The tender & Loco were all separate entities without any communication while moving, right?

More or less, though any vehicle carrying passengers or staff would have had the emergency alarm ("communication cord") which created a partial brake application and alerted the train crew.
The formation ex Soton would have been (1960 details - railway abbreviations in brackets for the specialists)
Loco
Bullion Van, staffed
Bogie Parcels Van (GUV)
3 PO vehicles, interconnected and staffed (POS, 2 POT)
3 passenger coaches, interconnected, the first and third having guard's/luggage accommodation (BSK,CK,BSK)
4-wheeled Van with Guard's accommodation (BY)
(Extra vans added at Eastleigh)
I would have expected the train guard to travel in the third passenger coach so as to be accessible to passengers (and for his comfort!), not the 4-wheeler.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you, Lancer. Good point, bad writing by me.
What I find interesting is that 1. The brake, 2. The Bullion Van, 3. The TPOs (how many men?), 4. The passenger coaches, and 5. The tender & Loco were all separate entities without any communication while moving, right?

Cheers, well need to get a more experienced /knowledgeable commentator here to muse on my query. I'm not old enough to recall the era. I see 30907 has pitched in with some good stuff now.

Anyway - I'm enjoying reading it - there are a few typos (eg an ' it's ' that should be its) but I know you are not at that stage yet so easily done. Thanks for sharing it.

Hope you are keeping well in these troubles times!

 

[Union St]

Hello Dr Hoo, how are things on the Isle? Yes, the story is developing but quite a bit more to go yet. I didn't bother sending you the last half about the road convoy and the police.
I want to say to you and everyone on this forum; I am incredibly encouraged by your enthusiasm. Talking to the police was not so easy and a little bit like pulling teeth, so I'm still a little bare in that aspect. The Union Castle guys in the Merchant Navy site have little memory of what happened at Southampton, but they tried. But you chaps just have a wealth of knowledge - unbelievable!
"Warm incandescent glow" - I love it.
Yes, I cut a lot of the details about the Soton moves cos I don't think the average reader will be troubled by it. Suffice to say, the the occasional detail adds some authenticity.
The weather, apparently, was quite extreme, and it's a challenge to bring it into the story, as each chapter jumps about in time. I have to remember not to make mistakes there.
I didn't know that about the berth numbering, but I will change it now - guaranteed.

Brilliant stuff, 30907 - communication cords, yes. Wow, this is complicated. Why are the PO vans "bogied", but not the Bullion - that would have bogies, yes? I don't think its important, but just trying to understand.
Q. How many PO staff on the TPO's?
Q. please confirm, there is no interconnection between the different types of vans, right? (i.e., passenger to TPO, for example).
Q. What vans would have been added at Eastliegh? To add vans they would have to break up the train, yes? cos the brake has to remain at the back?
Q. Did they pick up mail from those bagged/grabbing things along the way without stopping?

Sorry about the typos, Lancer - don't worry, that's what editors are for.
Yes, thank you. We're keeping well. In fact, I'm quite happy staying inside reading. I actually live within site of the Twinbrook Red-line Metro station and it's so sad to see the parking lots empty every day. Please stay safe everyone - at least you have a wonderful health service and some sensible leadership. Our political entertainment show was fun for a while, now its just sad and a little frightening. (I really didn't want to be political, but there it is, I said it).
Thank you so much everyone!

 

[Union St]

This has nothing to do with railways, but is a short story explaining where I got "Wellmeadow" from, (as Randy and I discussed) and my heroine May Donoghue.

 

[randyrippley]

More or less, though any vehicle carrying passengers or staff would have had the emergency alarm ("communication cord") which created a partial brake application and alerted the train crew.
The formation ex Soton would have been (1960 details - railway abbreviations in brackets for the specialists)
Loco
Bullion Van, staffed
Bogie Parcels Van (GUV)
3 PO vehicles, interconnected and staffed (POS, 2 POT)
3 passenger coaches, interconnected, the first and third having guard's/luggage accommodation (BSK,CK,BSK)
4-wheeled Van with Guard's accommodation (BY)
(Extra vans added at Eastleigh)
I would have expected the train guard to travel in the third passenger coach so as to be accessible to passengers (and for his comfort!), not the 4-wheeler.

I'm surprised at the 4-wheeled guards van, didn't realise they would be used. What would limit the speed to?

 

[30907]

Brilliant stuff, 30907 - communication cords, yes. Wow, this is complicated. Why are the PO vans "bogied", but not the Bullion - that would have bogies, yes? I don't think its important, but just trying to understand.
Q. How many PO staff on the TPO's?
Q. please confirm, there is no interconnection between the different types of vans, right? (i.e., passenger to TPO, for example).
Q. What vans would have been added at Eastliegh? To add vans they would have to break up the train, yes? cos the brake has to remain at the back?
Q. Did they pick up mail from those bagged/grabbing things along the way without stopping?

1. Parcels vans were a right old mixture - long-wheelbase 4-wheelers (@randyrippley, 75mph restriction back then IIRC, so not significant), 6-wheelers and bogie stock, most of which but not all was non-gangwayed. That's why I spelt it out. Everything else on that train was bogie stock.
2. Can't help with staffing numbers, sorry.
3. Older PO vehicles (like the SR ones) had connecting gangways at the side, meaning they couldn't be reached from the rest of the train.
4. A bogie parcels van (GUV) from Portsmouth and Southsea and two 4-wheelers (PMV-4) from Plymouth were attached at the rear. The Brake doesn't have to be the last vehicle of a passenger train (except on very steep gradients), though there were rules about how many "swingers"(!) were allowed.
5. The SR trains didn't pick use pickup apparatus - they stopped everywhere that mattered!

Edit clarifying #3