1992 stock Refurbishment?

[Chriso]

Have these 3 carriages been internally refurbished?

As a daily commuter on the 92 stock I can’t wait to see the refurb

 

[Dstock7080]

Have these 3 carriages been internally refurbished?

As a daily commuter on the 92 stock I can’t wait to see the refurb

at present there are separate trial installations of:
- AC motors
- new DTS cabling
- LED internal lighting/new CIS displays/wheelchair spaces/replacement flooring
these will all come together when the production trains enter the new workshop at Acton.

 

[Chriso]

at present there are separate trial installations of:
- AC motors
- new DTS cabling
- LED internal lighting/new CIS displays/wheelchair spaces/replacement flooring
these will all come together when the production trains enter the new workshop at Acton.

Thanks very much Dstock7080. Very interesting

 

[Wolfie]

at present there are separate trial installations of:
- AC motors
- new DTS cabling
- LED internal lighting/new CIS displays/wheelchair spaces/replacement flooring
these will all come together when the production trains enter the new workshop at Acton.

That makes sense. Test out each element in isolation before making multiple changes in parallel. TY

 

[Recessio]

Any footage or pictures of the refurbs yet?

 

[D365]

Yes 455's could but not 442's.

Did the Vossloh 442s run at all?

Then again, massive differences in some of the 465 remotorings...

The Brush GTO three-phase inverters were replaced by Hitachi IGBT inverters. No Class 465 motors have been changed, the BREL units retain their Brush motors.

 

[MatthewRead]

Did the Vossloh 442s run at all?


The Brush GTO three-phase inverters were replaced by Hitachi IGBT inverters. No Class 465 motors have been changed, the BREL units retain their Brush motors.

No sadly the re-tractioned 442's never go to carry any passengers

 

[Mikey C]

at present there are separate trial installations of:
- AC motors
- new DTS cabling
- LED internal lighting/new CIS displays/wheelchair spaces/replacement flooring
these will all come together when the production trains enter the new workshop at Acton.

Will the next trial be for a replacement bodyshell, seeing that just about everything else has been replaced at some point

 

[LUYMun]

Will the next trial be for a replacement bodyshell, seeing that just about everything else has been replaced at some point

Not for the Central since they are to be replaced by the NTfL, but perhaps for some additional rolling stock now highlighted to be required for the Jubilee/Northern?

 

[Mikey C]

Not for the Central since they are to be replaced by the NTfL, but perhaps for some additional rolling stock now highlighted to be required for the Jubilee/Northern?

I was being sarcastic, as no Underground stock seems to have had so much work done on it. There's no chance of them going anywhere else after NTfL arrives, the big question being when this will happen as TfL are broke, the Piccadilly line trains are late and they have to replace the Bakerloo 72 stock as well.

 

[bramling]

I was being sarcastic, as no Underground stock seems to have had so much work done on it. There's no chance of them going anywhere else after NTfL arrives, the big question being when this will happen as TfL are broke, the Piccadilly line trains are late and they have to replace the Bakerloo 72 stock as well.

The question is how successful the current batch of 92 stock works prove to be. If it turns out to be merely a sticking plaster then it’s highly likely the Bakerloo fleet replacement will, once again, be kicked into the long grass.

Another issue is the Central Line signalling, which also dates from the 1990s and is packed full of components which are now obsolete and thus difficult to obtain. Even if they do manage to turn round the fleet performance (which remains pretty dire, and has been for quite a few years) this still leaves a potential headache over what to do with the signalling.

If I had to place a bet on it I’d say that the Central Line fleet will still end up being replaced first, unless 72 stock reliability really drops off a cliff.

Replacing the Central Line fleet will be interesting for sure, as do they install the new signalling first and somehow make the 92 stock work with it, replace the trains first in which case the replacement trains would have to have elements of the old signalling system fitted, or some kind of overlay like was done on the Victoria Line. Hardly ideal tinkering with stuff which by then will likely be pretty fragile.

How this all plays out will certainly be interesting to watch.

 

[rebmcr]

Replacing the Central Line fleet will be interesting for sure, as do they install the new signalling first and somehow make the 92 stock work with it, replace the trains first in which case the replacement trains would have to have elements of the old signalling system fitted, or some kind of overlay like was done on the Victoria Line. Hardly ideal tinkering with stuff which by then will likely be pretty fragile.

We've been seeing a trend of modern equipment for CBTC and ETCS being fairly modular indeed — rather easy to plug in a temporary processing box for the old signalling, that feeds into the new trains' permanent brains.

 

[Recessio]

The Brush GTO three-phase inverters were replaced by Hitachi IGBT inverters. No Class 465 motors have been changed, the BREL units retain their Brush motors.

Ahh I see, thanks for the clarification!

 

[D365]

We've been seeing a trend of modern equipment for CBTC and ETCS being fairly modular indeed — rather easy to plug in a temporary processing box for the old signalling, that feeds into the new trains' permanent brains.

”Modular” doesn’t necessarily make it easy to retrofit, alas!

 

[rebmcr]

”Modular” doesn’t necessarily make it easy to retrofit, alas!

No, but if it's included at the design stage, it can be easy to make sure it's cleanly removable when the time comes.

 

[D365]

No, but if it's included at the design stage, it can be easy to make sure it's cleanly removable when the time comes.

Off-topic, but I was referring to ETCS [the onboard vital computer, etc.] as a whole! Thankfully not something that LUL has to deal with.

 

[321over360]

92 stock interiors seem awfully dark and dreary these days. I hope the LED lighting update really addresses this.

92 stock was always better pre the olympic refresh, when the lighting was alot more pleasant on the eyes, and when the trains looked cosy rather than garishly bright with the awful barman blue seat covers which doesnt suit the ambience of the 1992 stock, nor does the current lighting levels as they are way too bright, though cant be as bad as the excess lighting on the 1995/6 and 2009 stocks

They're like a greenhouse as it is when out in the open, I hate to imagine how hot they'd be without the tinted glass!


BREL, ABB, Adtranz, Bombardier, now Alstom, I assume the workforce are used to name changes!

Oddly the 92 stock never used to feel so hot several years ago, i think it doesnt help that now the tunnels have become full of trapped heat (in need of additional ventilation shafts in the central section to release the heat) the heat is getting trapped onto the trains as they pass through, cos ive noticed when they have a chance to sit at Hainault and come back to london, the heat on the train isnt that bad, even on a hot day, but join it at say Stratford going back to the hainault loop on the same day and the train is horribly hot, so the windows arent really impacting the trains temperature, its more the inadequate ventilation to the tunnels in the Stratford to White City section which is overheating the trains badly

The question is how successful the current batch of 92 stock works prove to be. If it turns out to be merely a sticking plaster then it’s highly likely the Bakerloo fleet replacement will, once again, be kicked into the long grass.

Another issue is the Central Line signalling, which also dates from the 1990s and is packed full of components which are now obsolete and thus difficult to obtain. Even if they do manage to turn round the fleet performance (which remains pretty dire, and has been for quite a few years) this still leaves a potential headache over what to do with the signalling.

If I had to place a bet on it I’d say that the Central Line fleet will still end up being replaced first, unless 72 stock reliability really drops off a cliff.

Replacing the Central Line fleet will be interesting for sure, as do they install the new signalling first and somehow make the 92 stock work with it, replace the trains first in which case the replacement trains would have to have elements of the old signalling system fitted, or some kind of overlay like was done on the Victoria Line. Hardly ideal tinkering with stuff which by then will likely be pretty fragile.

How this all plays out will certainly be interesting to watch.

1992 stock tbh havent done too bad given they are almost 30 years old now, and are the only Deep Level tube stock with spacious carriages especially for the taller person, so they are the best ones going. The 1972 and 1973 stock really need to go, especially the Picadilly line fleet, they are very outdated trains, and dont really cater well for the passengers of London which have become alot taller than they were in the 1970s when they were built hence they need to go, and have trains with as much interior height like the 1992 stock which is the biggest on all deep level tube stock

 

[43096]

1992 stock tbh havent done too bad given they are almost 30 years old now, and are the only Deep Level tube stock with spacious carriages especially for the taller person, so they are the best ones going. The 1972 and 1973 stock really need to go, especially the Picadilly line fleet, they are very outdated trains, and dont really cater well for the passengers of London which have become alot taller than they were in the 1970s when they were built hence they need to go, and have trains with as much interior height like the 1992 stock which is the biggest on all deep level tube stock

I'm sure LU would love to have vehicles with more height, but the tunnels are a bit of an issue...

 

[Mikey C]

1992 stock tbh havent done too bad given they are almost 30 years old now, and are the only Deep Level tube stock with spacious carriages especially for the taller person, so they are the best ones going. The 1972 and 1973 stock really need to go, especially the Picadilly line fleet, they are very outdated trains, and dont really cater well for the passengers of London which have become alot taller than they were in the 1970s when they were built hence they need to go, and have trains with as much interior height like the 1992 stock which is the biggest on all deep level tube stock

Surely the 1992s are the same height inside as any other normal Tube stock? I don't recall them being roomier than say the 1995/96 stock?

The stock which does have more headroom is the 2009 stock, as the Victoria line tunnels are slightly larger, and the stock was made fatter to utilise this.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are any of the refurbished units in service yet? Searching YouTube for "refurbished 1992 stock" yields results from the refresh they had about a decade ago but nothing more recent.

 

[Dstock7080]

Are any of the refurbished units in service yet? Searching YouTube for "refurbished 1992 stock" yields results from the refresh they had about a decade ago but nothing more recent.

First not expected to be in service until end-of this year.
Workshop at Acton nearing completion.
The AC motor units are undertaking test running on the Central.

 

[Mikey C]

First not expected to be in service until end-of this year.
Workshop at Acton nearing completion.
The AC motor units are undertaking test running on the Central.

As the Piccadilly Line trains will all be in service by 2027 and presumably production will continue for the Bakerloo and Central Lines, these refurbished trains won't have a very long time in service...

 

[Dstock7080]

As the Piccadilly Line trains will all be in service by 2027 and presumably production will continue for the Bakerloo and Central Lines, these refurbished trains won't have a very long time in service...

no funding for anything beyond Piccadilly 2024 Stock at present.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Which given the somewhat straightened state of TFL finances is in one sense hardly surprising but in another more worrying cents the 72 stock on the bakerloo surely can't last forever despite the best will and maintenance in the world

 

[Mikey C]

no funding for anything beyond Piccadilly 2024 Stock at present.

There might not be funding, but unless a follow on order is placed, presumably the Goole factory will then have to close which would be politically embarrassing for TfL AND the government, especially if 2 years later Siemens are given a follow on contract, which is then made in Austria...

 

[bramling]

As the Piccadilly Line trains will all be in service by 2027 and presumably production will continue for the Bakerloo and Central Lines, these refurbished trains won't have a very long time in service...

Too early to say on that score. With funding as it is, the opposite could just as easily happen.

 

[simple simon]

Maybe TfL should seek donations for the new trains?

I've still got some shillings and florins that I found down the back of the sofa!

Its a shame about the signalling system, as it seems to work well (better than some of the foibles with more modern variants) and has visual signals to boot.

 

[cactustwirly]

Which given the somewhat straightened state of TFL finances is in one sense hardly surprising but in another more worrying cents the 72 stock on the bakerloo surely can't last forever despite the best will and maintenance in the world

TfL don't bother maintaining the 72 stock at the moment. They're in a shocking state, with carriages frequently running with broken lights etc

 

[Nym]

Is what happens when you're "About to get LED Lighting" for three years, but then no-one actually keeps up the project.
There have been issues with failing fixings on the lighting diffusers, hence they don't get opened any more to clean or service lights until absolutely necessary. With all too much reliance on replacement with LED Lighting, oh I do wonder how that project is going since basically every engineer on it left TfL.

 

[Lewlew]

Is what happens when you're "About to get LED Lighting" for three years, but then no-one actually keeps up the project.
There have been issues with failing fixings on the lighting diffusers, hence they don't get opened any more to clean or service lights until absolutely necessary. With all too much reliance on replacement with LED Lighting, oh I do wonder how that project is going since basically every engineer on it left TfL.

Two units have been fitted with LED lights, the first one appears to be working well but the second one has had issues with all the lights "pulsing" on/off after going over rail gaps. I had it a few weeks ago and turning the lights off/on didn't stop them but tripping and resetting the MAs sorted it. It only happened once on my trip but it's had other reports in the defect book.

They seem to be waiting until they are ready to do the whole programme (lights, PIS displays, wheelchair bays etc) of works on the trains.