19th July Lockdown Easing - Observations and Compliance

[kristiang85]

The Met Police still seem to be confused on twitter:

https://twitter.com/MetCC/status/1421911418312531971

Even when the person complaining clarified they were on a train to Staines (non-TfL), "the update was passed on."

I had my laptop stolen in a pub and the Met weren't interested. I even had the pub send them CCTV footage and the police said "We can't do anything, it shows the man in the pub which isn't a crime, and not him stealing".

Yet they seem to be very interested in masked up Dave's concerns over people doing something which isn't even illegal.

 

[bramling]

I had my laptop stolen in a pub and the Met weren't interested. I even had the pub send them CCTV footage and the police said "We can't do anything, it shows the man in the pub which isn't a crime, and not him stealing".

Yet they seem to be very interested in masked up Dave's concerns over people doing something which isn't even illegal.

Sadly I find it hard to take the Met Police seriously, for one reason - Cressida Dick.

As regards BTP, despite a few high-profile things we’ve seen, I’ve always got the impression they were never *that* in to mask policing. It was something which was dumped on them, and they essentially had to make the best of it. Certainly from my modest professional dealings with BTP they were never too interested in masks, and more than a few officers were very vocally anti mask - though they would carry out their professional duty in upholding the law, they certainly weren’t enthusiastic about doing so, on the contrary.

If we remember, when the mask law first came in hardly any BTP were seen wearing them. This only changed after loads of “it’s not fair” tweets and the like.

 

[island]

Sadly I find it hard to take the Met Police seriously, for one reason - Cressida Dick.

As regards BTP, despite a few high-profile things we’ve seen, I’ve always got the impression they were never *that* in to mask policing. It was something which was dumped on them, and they essentially had to make the best of it. Certainly from my modest professional dealings with BTP they were never too interested in masks, and more than a few officers were very vocally anti mask - though they would carry out their professional duty in upholding the law, they certainly weren’t enthusiastic about doing so, on the contrary.

If we remember, when the mask law first came in hardly any BTP were seen wearing them. This only changed after loads of “it’s not fair” tweets and the like.

BTP, like most forces, would (and in Wales still will) as a rule only attend face covering related incidents where there is a secondary issue such as a public order incident.

 

[big_rig]

A few weeks on since the 19th I am finding it increasingly difficult to apply any rational analysis of mask wearing in an observational sense. Sometimes on the train or bus nobody is wearing them, sometimes everybody is. The same with shops - I've been in shops where I am the only person not wearing one, or in shops where nobody is. There doesn't seem to be any ongoing breakdown of age, race, sex, occupation that holds water over time (with the exception of shop/train staff who have a clearly lower level of mask wearing than the public, no doubt because they have to wear them all day). All I can think is that the continual mask messaging has really done something strange to much of society and that it still feels 'naughty' for a lot of people not to do it. On the brighter side I do think this has been chipped away a bit over the last fortnight and hopefully will do so further as time goes on until some kind of 'herd immunity' threshold is reached for them and it becomes strange to still use them.

 

[island]

A few weeks on since the 19th I am finding it increasingly difficult to apply any rational analysis of mask wearing in an observational sense. Sometimes on the train or bus nobody is wearing them, sometimes everybody is. The same with shops - I've been in shops where I am the only person not wearing one, or in shops where nobody is. There doesn't seem to be any ongoing breakdown of age, race, sex, occupation that holds water over time (with the exception of shop/train staff who have a clearly lower level of mask wearing than the public, no doubt because they have to wear them all day). All I can think is that the continual mask messaging has really done something strange to much of society and that it still feels 'naughty' for a lot of people not to do it. On the brighter side I do think this has been chipped away a bit over the last fortnight and hopefully will do so further as time goes on until some kind of 'herd immunity' threshold is reached for them and it becomes strange to still use them.

The human instinct to conform is still showing through.

 

[greyman42]

Not the case at other times though. More like 50/50 during the day, less in the evening.

I agree. I was using the Underground yesterday and observed the same. The good thing is that staff and any police in the stations could not care less if you are unmasked.

 

[Green tractor]

The current messaging is sickening and inappropriate; it makes me angry and more determined to push back and resist the authoritarian stance.

Why is is 'sickening' they are asking people to wear face coverings, note asking, not telling.

How are you going to 'push back and resist'?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Why is is 'sickening' they are asking people to wear face coverings, note asking, not telling.

How are you going to 'push back and resist'?

Everyday - wearing a mask in not normal.

See you same time tomorrow?

 

[Green tractor]

Worldwide, in the mist of a pandemic, wearing a face mask is quite normal, at the moment.

I have a particular dislike of tattoos, I cant understand why anybody would want to graffiti on their body. However if people want to have them that's fine, it doesn't wind me up in any way, its up to them.

 

[Huntergreed]

Worldwide, in the mist of a pandemic, wearing a face mask is quite normal, at the moment.

I have a particular dislike of tattoos, I cant understand why anybody would want to graffiti on their body. However if people want to have them that's fine, it doesn't wind me up in any way, its up to them.

Can you at least agree that the continued blanket mandation of masks until next spring (as was announced in Scotland today) is a bit excessive?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Worldwide, in the mist of a pandemic, wearing a face mask is quite normal, at the moment.

I have a particular dislike of tattoos, I cant understand why anybody would want to graffiti on their body. However if people want to have them that's fine, it doesn't wind me up in any way, its up to them.

Another terrible analogy

 

[XAM2175]

Can you at least agree that the continued blanket mandation of masks until next spring (as was announced in Scotland today) is a bit excessive?

Was this actually announced, or is it an exaggeration of "for some time to come"?

 

[Green tractor]

Can you at least agree that the continued blanket mandation of masks until next spring (as was announced in Scotland today) is a bit excessive?

I would say it depends on what happens when the schools return and in the autumn. It is worse to remove the requirement, then have to re introduce it, than not to remove it just yet, and then remove it 'early'. At the moment nearly all the numbers are moving in the right direction, (apart from deaths, and the week out of date ONS survey numbers) even hospital admissions are starting to fall.

Amongst all the measures that were put in place face masks are the least restrictive, they don't stop you doing anything, and nobody has said it will be forever.

Another terrible analogy

Worldwide, in the mist of a pandemic, wearing a face mask is quite normal, at the moment.

I have a particular dislike of tattoos, I cant understand why anybody would want to graffiti on their body. However if people want to have them that's fine, it doesn't wind me up in any way, its up to them.

Why? I see people with something on their body I really don't like, but I accept that is their personal choice.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I would say it depends on what happens when the schools return and in the autumn. It is worse to remove the requirement, then have to re introduce it, than not to remove it just yet, and then remove it 'early'. At the moment nearly all the numbers are moving in the right direction, (apart from deaths, and the week out of date ONS survey numbers) even hospital admissions are starting to fall.

Amongst all the measures that were put in place face masks are the least restrictive, they don't stop you doing anything, and nobody has said it will be forever.




Why? I see people with something on their body I really don't like, but I accept that is their personal choice.

It’s raining in the Amazon should we all wear a raincoat everyday?

 

[NorthOxonian]

Amongst all the measures that were put in place face masks are the least restrictive, they don't stop you doing anything, and nobody has said it will be forever.

To you, maybe, but not to all of us.

From my personal point of view, living in a masked society has been one of the hardest parts of the last few months. I would have gladly lived under tighter restrictions for longer if it had meant masks were never normalised or mandated. Fortunately (at least from my point of view) usage has fallen a lot, but I am genuinely concerned a lot of the people wearing them now will never give up. I agree that masks do not have a direct economic cost, but they do have a significant social cost and this idea they're harmless is a fiction.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I've developed an interesting perspective towards mask wearing over the past couple of weeks. I had been in Germany and flew back to England the day before freedom day. So for the first 5 days I wasn't out and about too much; only the legally permitted exemptions to my self-isolation for arriving from an amber country (which had an infection rate one fiftieth that of the UK but that's a separate issue!).

On my fifth day back (a Friday) I did test-to-release and got a negative result that evening, so went for a night out to a crowded bar. Zero masks, totally normal, absolutely fantastic evening dancing away as if the last 17 months never happened. The following Monday I did my mandatory Day 8 test and on Wednesday morning I got an e-mail to say it was positive. Almost certainly I caught the virus in the crowded bar.

So I've been self-isolating ever since apart from a few trips out to get food (legally permitted by my reading of the legislation, since I live alone) and of course I wore a mask, stayed well away from other people and used the self-checkouts at the supermarket.

But my symptoms have been so mild (nowhere near as bad as a normal cold) that I'd have never thought to get tested if the Day 8 test hadn't caught it. And it's given me a new perspective on mask wearing in places like shops and public transport where people might not really be there out of choice - at the very least, I can understand the viewpoint that it shows respect to others to wear a mask as it's genuinely true (from my own experience) that you don't know when you might be contagious.

But a further point worthy of discussion is that of course that assumes, that there will be negative consequences for anyone who is exposed to the virus. But certainly this is false for my experience (exposed the day after my second vaccination dose, negligible symptoms, feel totally fine). I think there should be a lot more debate around this point, i.e. how bad are the consequences if you're exposed to a person contagious with the virus, as it has a big bearing on the "respect" argument.

 

[initiation]

Why? I see people with something on their body I really don't like, but I accept that is their personal choice

Your analogy is entirely inappropriate. Voluntary yes, however across the UK, and elsewhere, masks have been legally enforced. In your example it would be that you don't like tattoos, but the government fine you if you didnt have one and shops would have 'no tattoo - no service' signs by the entrance.

 

[Green tractor]

It’s raining in the Amazon should we all wear a raincoat everyday?

We don't take precautions against Ebola here though do we?

Your analogy is entirely inappropriate. Voluntary yes, however across the UK, and elsewhere, masks have been legally enforced. In your example it would be that you don't like tattoos, but the government fine you if you didnt have one and shops would have 'no tattoo - no service' signs by the entrance.

As things currently stand in England masks are not law (apart from LUL) what I'm saying is I accept other people have tattoo's. People who don't like masks have to accept that some people are continuing to wear them.

 

[farleigh]

Your analogy is entirely inappropriate. Voluntary yes, however across the UK, and elsewhere, masks have been legally enforced. In your example it would be that you don't like tattoos, but the government fine you if you didnt have one and shops would have 'no tattoo - no service' signs by the entrance.

A very good analogy

 

[RPI]

We don't take precautions against Ebola here though do we?



As things currently stand in England masks are not law (apart from LUL) what I'm saying is I accept other people have tattoo's. People who don't like masks have to accept that some people are continuing to wear them.

I almost agree with you (I hate masks, cant wait till we never see another) and I respect peoples choice to wear or not wear one, my concern at the moment is that people cannot make that choice to not wear one easily, people are scared not to wear one because they get judged and get funny looks and many are wearing one simply because they're scared not to. My observations are that people follow the crowd, on a train where a few people have taken them off then others tend to follow.
I've noticed as well that a lot seem to wear coverings when they board the train then take them off when seated, as in restaurants!

 

[Busaholic]

Another terrible analogy

Have you EVER agreed with any analogy?

 

[Freightmaster]

Have you EVER agreed with any analogy?

Life is like a butterfly??




MARK

 

[DustyBin]

they don't stop you doing anything

Including catching or spreading Covid, so why wear one?

 

[Busaholic]

Life is like a butterfly??




MARK

According to the Uxbridge English Dictionary (revised edition) analogy is the name given to the scientific study of the nether regions.

 

[island]

Excellent post.

So I've been self-isolating ever since apart from a few trips out to get food (legally permitted by my reading of the legislation, since I live alone) and of course I wore a mask, stayed well away from other people and used the self-checkouts at the supermarket.

Strictly speaking you ought to get your groceries delivered if you can and the option to go out is only available if you cannot get them in any other manner, but like most of the Covid regulations, enforcement is highly variable.

As things currently stand in England masks are not law (apart from LUL) what I'm saying is I accept other people have tattoo's. People who don't like masks have to accept that some people are continuing to wear them.

They’re not ”law” on LUL either.

 

[initiation]

As things currently stand in England masks are not law (apart from LUL) what I'm saying is I accept other people have tattoo's. People who don't like masks have to accept that some people are continuing to wear them.

OK then - as things currently strand the analogy would be after coming out of a 12 month period when you could be fined for not having one, the government still recommend everyone gets a tattoo, many shops still have signs up and trains often still have announcements that tattoos are required, and TFL require as a condition of travel that you have one.

Yes, if things were more passive in terms of masks and who is pushing them then yes, your analogy might hold some weight, but at present it does not.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've developed an interesting perspective towards mask wearing over the past couple of weeks. I had been in Germany and flew back to England the day before freedom day. So for the first 5 days I wasn't out and about too much; only the legally permitted exemptions to my self-isolation for arriving from an amber country (which had an infection rate one fiftieth that of the UK but that's a separate issue!).

On my fifth day back (a Friday) I did test-to-release and got a negative result that evening, so went for a night out to a crowded bar. Zero masks, totally normal, absolutely fantastic evening dancing away as if the last 17 months never happened. The following Monday I did my mandatory Day 8 test and on Wednesday morning I got an e-mail to say it was positive. Almost certainly I caught the virus in the crowded bar.

So I've been self-isolating ever since apart from a few trips out to get food (legally permitted by my reading of the legislation, since I live alone) and of course I wore a mask, stayed well away from other people and used the self-checkouts at the supermarket.

But my symptoms have been so mild (nowhere near as bad as a normal cold) that I'd have never thought to get tested if the Day 8 test hadn't caught it. And it's given me a new perspective on mask wearing in places like shops and public transport where people might not really be there out of choice - at the very least, I can understand the viewpoint that it shows respect to others to wear a mask as it's genuinely true (from my own experience) that you don't know when you might be contagious.

But a further point worthy of discussion is that of course that assumes, that there will be negative consequences for anyone who is exposed to the virus. But certainly this is false for my experience (exposed the day after my second vaccination dose, negligible symptoms, feel totally fine). I think there should be a lot more debate around this point, i.e. how bad are the consequences if you're exposed to a person contagious with the virus, as it has a big bearing on the "respect" argument.

Do you remember way back at the start of 2020 when the WHO quite explicitly advised against the use of face masks in public settings, then suddenly about faced after numerous governments around the globe mandated them anyway? And they did so without actually presenting anything new to justify this about-face. Originally the WHO position on masks was that used widely in public they would risk people not taking other mitigations such as regular hand washing because they felt safe behind their masks. Indeed when our government started to later mandate them, this "feeling safe" would be one of the main reasons they would cite for their change of position. To this day many of us still don't believe that masks actually make that much difference when not used with / in medical disciplines and there certainly has been nothing new to demonstrate otherwise.

So with all this in mind, are people really wearing masks out of respect for others? Well maybe some, but I firmly suspect that more simply wear them because they think they have to, or that they do so to not to look out of place. Some might even wear them out of the fear of being guilty about someone else's death (even though that's near impossible to actually prove). But most people wear them (I suspect at least) because the government convinced them that they would die if they so much as stepped within 2 metres of another human being for more than a few seconds. We Brits aren't exactly well known as an altruistic nation at the best of times, heck many people seem to raise money for charity to raise their profile on social media than actually do some good. So I treat this notion that we all do it for some greater cause with, well a healthy dose of cynicism.

 

[Jamiescott1]

The driver on my chiltern train just announced that chiltern railways advises passengers to wear face coverings. He also announced to sit in the window seat and keep a few rows between you and fellow passengers.
Someone needs to remind him that its not 2020 anymore

 

[Mag_seven]

The driver on my chiltern train just announced that chiltern railways advises passengers to wear face coverings. He also announced to sit in the window seat and keep a few rows between you and fellow passengers.
Someone needs to remind him that its not 2020 anymore

And is he wearing one I wonder....

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Why? I see people with something on their body I really don't like, but I accept that is their personal choice.

Absolutely no comparison...