1p on Fuel Duty to Keep £2 Bus Fare Cap?

[Llandudno]

The £2 single journey bus fare cap in England is due to end on 31 December and the new Labour Government have not, as yet, indicated whether the bus fare cap will continue….

Does anyone know how much extra per annum the bus fare cap is costing the taxpayer and would an extra 1p on fuel duty cover the extra bus fare subsidy for another year or two?

Plus, does anyone think is a good idea!!!!

 

[Resuwen]

As the owner of an electric car, who often uses the bus, it would be a very good idea

 

[LiviCrazy]

A good idea in principal, but they would have to keep the fuel duty charge to England and Wales only or extend the scheme to Scotland, it would be unfair to charge us extra in Scotland to get no benefit.

 

[Resuwen]

Scotland would get Barnett consequentials of any such spending and could then choose to use it on the same thing or anything else

 

[py_megapixel]

I reckon a heavily subsidised multi-modal period ticket would be a far better use of funds than the £2 singles in terms of encouraging long term modal shift. I'd say something inspired by the 49 Euro Ticket, but actually getting it down to be that cheap with nationwide validity is probably unrealistic here.

The £2 singles have the hallmarks of a policy of the previous government, in that they are the most simplistic possible idea so that they can be explained to the public in soundbites, but they aren't actually the best way of achieving much. I'd hope Labour would scrap them and replace them with something better.

 

[renegademaster]

It's not *new* spending so they can still fund it without having to raise more tax under their self imposed rules

 

[gaillark]

Why should motorists subsidise bus passengers?

Bus passengers should pay the real cost of providing the service in urban areas although for rural routes there is a case for a subsidy from existing funding sources but without further taxes imposed.

 

[py_megapixel]

Why should motorists subsidise bus passengers?

For many reasons. Perhaps the simplest being that their cars are getting in the way of our buses!

Each person that travels on a bus instead of driving their own car is freeing up some space on the road, making journeys more efficient for everyone, including those still in cars. I think it is entirely reasonable that motorists pay for that, to some extent.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Why should motorists subsidise bus passengers?

Bus passengers should pay the real cost of providing the service in urban areas although for rural routes there is a case for a subsidy from existing funding sources but without further taxes imposed.

Motorists benefit from roads in a better condition - more bus passengers and less cars on the road mean less cumulative damage to the road surface.

 

[Deerfold]

Why should motorists subsidise bus passengers?

Bus passengers should pay the real cost of providing the service in urban areas although for rural routes there is a case for a subsidy from existing funding sources but without further taxes imposed.

And why should non-motorists subsidise roads?

And every driver who decides to get the bus instead makes the roads less congested, benefitting drivers.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why should motorists subsidise bus passengers?

And why should non-motorists subsidise roads? And why should non-parents subsidise schools? Etc etc.

would an extra 1p on fuel duty cover the extra bus fare subsidy for another year or two?

It’s a good idea but I’m not sure it would pay for it.

Congestion charging in bigger cities probably would pay for it, and would be better for everyone, but it would be controversial.

 

[158756]

The annual cost of the fare cap doesn't seem to be very well publicised, but this article quotes the total cost to December 2024 (so presumably starting in January 2023) as £600 million. https://www.cpt-uk.org/news/cpt-res...-bus-services-as-fare-cap-set-to-be-extended/

So that would be about £300m annually.

The temporary 5p cut in fuel duty in 2022 was estimated to cost £2.4 billion annually. If we assume you can just divide that by 5 to get the impact of 1p, that's £480m.

So the answer is probably yes, it would raise enough money. But taxes on motorists are politically toxic, so it is unlikely the government will go there. They're going to have enough trouble with ending the temporary cut. Fuel duty is also going to be a big problem in the future as fuel sales will decline, and there are currently no plans to make up the lost tax from EVs.

 

[InOban]

It's almost impossible to convince motorists of the fact (and it is a fact) that the main beneficiaries of any investment (capital or continuing) in public transport will always be those who continue to drive.

 

[edwin_m]

It's almost impossible to convince motorists of the fact (and it is a fact) that the main beneficiaries of any investment (capital or continuing) in public transport will always be those who continue to drive.

I wouldn't go that far. London is the most obvious counter-example, as hardly anyone drives but the city could not exist in its present form without public transport.

But it's worth noting that if there were no (or very few) cars, we would probably have widespread unsubsidised bus networks as we had in the 50s and 60s.

 

[yorkie]

Why should motorists subsidise bus passengers?

Why should people who don't use any service subsidise those who do? It's a fallacy; there are many reasons.

Bus passengers should pay the real cost of providing the service in urban areas although for rural routes there is a case for a subsidy from existing funding sources but without further taxes imposed.

Why shouldn't public transport be subsided?

Car drivers don't pay for the full actual cost to society of their lifestyle choices; those of us who don't drive aren't sufficiently compensated by those who do, for the many negative effects, such as both air and noise pollution, and much more.

Public transport should absolutely be encouraged, not discouraged.

Your argument holds no water and I strongly disagree.

 

[Magdalia]

It's not *new* spending so they can still fund it without having to raise more tax under their self imposed rules

If funds are only in the budget up to 31 December, and anything after that is unfunded, then continuing after 31 December is "new" spending. Given what else we have learned since the General Election, I would be very surprised to find that the funds for £2 bus fares after 31 December had been allocated.

Congestion charging in bigger cities probably would pay for it, and would be better for everyone, but it would be controversial.

Recent experience in Cambridge demonstrates that.

See here:

Cambridge Congestion Charge

Any thoughts on the proposed "congestion charge" in Cambridge https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/news/greater-cambridge-partnership-sets-out-plans-for-5-congesti-9271161/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-62692057 The CC works well in London as there are plenty of...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's almost impossible to convince motorists of the fact (and it is a fact) that the main beneficiaries of any investment (capital or continuing) in public transport will always be those who continue to drive.

It really isn't. If the government were to do as the OP suggests, and announced that an additional 1p on fuel duty was to directly fund public transport, such openness would be a breath of fresh air. What annoys motorists is the lack of openness about how the taxes they pay are used... and the fact that despite taxes being charged, the quality of the infrastructure continues to deteriorate.

I'd be even happier to subsidise bus services if the services were (a) publicly owned and operated, and (b) useful during evenings and weekends when I'd rather leave the car at home.

 

[whoosh]

Why should motorists subsidise bus passengers?

Bus passengers should pay the real cost of providing the service in urban areas although for rural routes there is a case for a subsidy from existing funding sources but without further taxes imposed.

Why should bus passengers be held up in clogged up car traffic?

 

[ivorytoast28]

I reckon a heavily subsidised multi-modal period ticket would be a far better use of funds than the £2 singles in terms of encouraging long term modal shift. I'd say something inspired by the 49 Euro Ticket, but actually getting it down to be that cheap with nationwide validity is probably unrealistic here.

The £2 singles have the hallmarks of a policy of the previous government, in that they are the most simplistic possible idea so that they can be explained to the public in soundbites, but they aren't actually the best way of achieving much. I'd hope Labour would scrap them and replace them with something better.

What alternative would you suggest?
The £2 bus fare is flexible and cheap for people. Any period ticket would cost a lot more upfront and therefore require people to commit making it less available as and when. Even if you use the £2 bus fare 5 days a week for a return journey you're only just getting to that 49eur, and as you say any period ticket would end up being far more in the UK. I'd like to see something that includes trains which is presumably what you're alluding to but I just don't see it happening without losing any of the value and flexibility the current £2 bus fare has

 

[Snex]

I reckon a heavily subsidised multi-modal period ticket would be a far better use of funds than the £2 singles in terms of encouraging long term modal shift. I'd say something inspired by the 49 Euro Ticket, but actually getting it down to be that cheap with nationwide validity is probably unrealistic here.

The £2 singles have the hallmarks of a policy of the previous government, in that they are the most simplistic possible idea so that they can be explained to the public in soundbites, but they aren't actually the best way of achieving much. I'd hope Labour would scrap them and replace them with something better.

Not sure I agree with that it's quite a simple system really.

Mind I do think the cap needs amending so it's something more like 50p + 10p a mile, with a minimum cap of £2.00. I'm not sure someone travelling 65 mile from somewhere like Newcastle to Berwick can really complain about a £7 bus fare. £2 is outragerously too low though for that journey.

I think it's pretty fair that someone travelling further than 15 mile should be expecting to pay more than £2.

 

[py_megapixel]

What alternative would you suggest?
The £2 bus fare is flexible and cheap for people. Any period ticket would cost a lot more upfront and therefore require people to commit making it less available as and when. Even if you use the £2 bus fare 5 days a week for a return journey you're only just getting to that 49eur, and as you say any period ticket would end up being far more in the UK. I'd like to see something that includes trains which is presumably what you're alluding to but I just don't see it happening without losing any of the value and flexibility the current £2 bus fare has

Getting people to commit is my whole point - persuade people to form habits that don't involve their cars, and hopefully those habits will stick. Once you already have the ticket, the marginal cost of a bus journey is zero. I bet there are people, for example, who under the current scheme use the bus to work to save on parking costs, but at the weekend they're straight back in their cars. If the bus is effectively free, they could be converted into weekend bus passengers as well. The buses would be running anyway, so there is no loss of revenue. Similarly with park and ride - it's an easier sell if the bus journey is free, and that should hopefully persuade more visitors to forgo driving into city centres.

The £2 fares are a nuisance on busy routes. Instead of 10 people just getting on and scanning their period ticket, you have 10 people getting on, asking the driver for a ticket and then more often than not going through a whole card transaction, sometimes having to repeat if it fails the first time. It's widely accepted that to run an efficient bus service you need some way of taking the workload of issuing tickets away the driver, whether that's ticket machines or some sort of online system, but the current scheme totally undermines that. It also penalises passengers for having to change.

As much as I would like it, I don't think train validity is realistic. But I think something like a monthly subscription ticket for all bus and light rail in England, at an emminently affordable price, should be achievable.

Not sure I agree with that it's quite a simple system really.

Mind I do think the cap needs amending so it's something more like 50p + 10p a mile, with a minimum fare of £2.00. I'm not sure someone travelling 65 mile from somewhere like Newcastle to Berwick can really complain about a £7 bus fare. £2 is outragerously too low though for that journey.

I think it's pretty fair that someone travelling further than 15 mile should be expecting to pay more than £2.

I'm not sure this in and of itself is a good justification. The fact that something is simple doesn't necessarily make it a good idea, and indeed the current system has quite a few shortcomings which I've discussed above. Plus of course changing a £2 maximum fare to a £2 minimum fare is unlikely to go down well with the public (especially bearing in mind there are still a few journeys where you can pay less than £2!), and your suggestion of mileage-based pricing does rather add complexity

 

[Snex]

I'm not sure this in and of itself is a good justification. The fact that something is simple doesn't necessarily make it a good idea, and indeed the current system has quite a few shortcomings which I've discussed above. Plus of course changing a £2 maximum fare to a £2 minimum fare is unlikely to go down well with the public (especially bearing in mind there are still a few journeys where you can pay less than £2!), and your suggestion of mileage-based pricing does rather add complexity

Apologies that was a mistype on my behalf, was meant to say minimum cap not fare. Personally I see the fares as a different purpose to what your mentioning though, most areas already have multimodal tickets available.

Personally I think the multi modal ticketing should be a local authority decision and controlled by the local PTE's. Obviously extra funding to them so they could offer better tickets would always be handy but this is Britain so that's not happening.

In an ideal world, you need reasonable singles for those who only need to use the bus infrequently and well priced weekly / monthly tickets for those who want to use the bus more frequently imo, they're potentially two different markets. For example someone who can't use public transport to work as the links just don't exist (and realistically can't) but wants to use the bus to go to the local city on the weekend, instead of driving etc.

Obviously you could make the debate whether the single fare prices should be a local PTE matter instead though, with appropiate funding for them to fund it, rather than it being a national decision.

 

[Mikey C]

It really isn't. If the government were to do as the OP suggests, and announced that an additional 1p on fuel duty was to directly fund public transport, such openness would be a breath of fresh air. What annoys motorists is the lack of openness about how the taxes they pay are used... and the fact that despite taxes being charged, the quality of the infrastructure continues to deteriorate.

I'd be even happier to subsidise bus services if the services were (a) publicly owned and operated, and (b) useful during evenings and weekends when I'd rather leave the car at home.

But then taxation doesn't work like that. Car tax and petrol duty aren't ringfenced to pay for roads or even general transport maintenance and improvements, they go into the exchequer like any other taxation to pay for health, social security etc

The £2 fare is distorting, but it is effective. I've certainly found myself looking out for buses when out and about outside London (e.g. for walks). It has though made period tickets and indeed schemes like PlusBus less attractive.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It really isn't. If the government were to do as the OP suggests, and announced that an additional 1p on fuel duty was to directly fund public transport, such openness would be a breath of fresh air. What annoys motorists is the lack of openness about how the taxes they pay are used... and the fact that despite taxes being charged, the quality of the infrastructure continues to deteriorate.

I'm sorry but the evidence would suggest otherwise.

The right to drive a car in this country is almost akin to the right to bear arms in the US. The idea that you can simply explain that it's for better public transport is very naive. Remember the Manchester Congestion Charge that was supposed to be ringfenced for public transport - rejected by 4:1.

Just look at how many schemes that will improve bus priority are watered down or axed completely when the pro-car lobby gets to work.

 

[DaveHarries]

I reckon a heavily subsidised multi-modal period ticket would be a far better use of funds than the £2 singles in terms of encouraging long term modal shift.

With me it is the £2 singles which make me use the bus for the longer journeys I sometimes make when I am at work as I tend not to use the bus when not at work. I did Bristol to Yeovil for £4 (with a change at Wells which will only be needed until 01st September when Bristol to Yeovil becomes a through route) instead of the £22 train fare the other day.

Perhaps the multi-modal period ticket would be more useful as an optional offer: I am quite happy continuing on the £2 singles.

Dave

 

[gazmark]

And why should non-motorists subsidise roads? And why should non-parents subsidise schools? Etc etc.


It’s a good idea but I’m not sure it would pay for it.

Congestion charging in bigger cities probably would pay for it, and would be better for everyone, but it would be controversial.

Already done in Sheffield and the money isn't used for Buses / Roads etc.....

Sheffield Clean Air Zone raises more than £210,500 in first month

The zone, introduced in Sheffield city centre in February, applies to taxis, lorries and vans.

www.bbc.co.uk

Mod feel free to remove the Sheffield Star link I cannot find apologies

Sheffield's Clean Air Zone (CAZ) generated just over £210,500 in charges and fines in its first month of operation, new figures have revealed.

Introduced on 27 February, it applies to taxis, lorries and vans not meeting emissions standards, but it does not apply to private cars or motorbikes.

About 15,000 journeys through the zone in March brought in £175,512, plus £35,060 in fines, the council said.

Mod note: quote is required when referring to external sources

 

[dan5324]

And why should non-motorists subsidise roads?

And every driver who decides to get the bus instead makes the roads less congested, benefitting drivers.

Everyone benefits from roads, regardless of whether you drive or not. So they should be funded by everyone. If you order online, it’ll be delivered via road. If you need to be rushed to hospital, you’ll go by road. Etc etc.

Why should bus passengers be held up in clogged up car traffic?

I’d say if someone is in a car they are probably earning more money and thus contributing more to the economy than your average bus user…

 

[GusB]

Everyone benefits from roads, regardless of whether you drive or not. So they should be funded by everyone. If you order online, it’ll be delivered via road. If you need to be rushed to hospital, you’ll go by road. Etc etc.

This is true - we do all benefit from the road network, regardless of the method of transport that we use.

I’d say if someone is in a car they are probably earning more money and thus contributing more to the economy than your average bus user…

You're going to have to provide some actual figures to back up this assertion. Someone in a car that's stuck in traffic isn't contributing anything to society.

Also, the assumption that someone who doesn't own a car is earning less than someone who does is quite wrong. It's quite possible to live and travel around in a place without having a car while earning a significant amount of money.

 

[yorksrob]

I’d say if someone is in a car they are probably earning more money and thus contributing more to the economy than your average bus user…

A lot of bus users are going to jobs that are not necessarily highly paid, but vital to keep the economy going.

 

[lachlan]

I’d say if someone is in a car they are probably earning more money and thus contributing more to the economy than your average bus user…

An incredibly presumptuous and ableist view. Besides, I could work during my commute if I wanted to.