1U38 Crewe-London Euston LNWR service cancelled......

[The_Train]

......between Crewe and Milton Keynes due to a 'power supply problem' according to RTT
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P80767/2018/10/19/advanced
but yet the train is working as 5U38 Crewe to Milton Keynes ECS.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O49468/2018/10/19/advanced

Is it just me or does something not add up with this?

 

[185]

I think wires may be down/have issues in two places, certainly Weaver Jn (Hartford) not sure if there's one down south too.

 

[PHILIPE]

It's probably a knock on effect from the OHLE problems and the 350 is running ECS from Crewe to Milton Keynes to take up it's working

 

[pt_mad]

It's probably a knock on effect from the OHLE problems and the 350 is running ECS from Crewe to Milton Keynes to take up it's working

Probably has no guard due to guard being caught up in the OLE problem. Could explain if it's ECS. Just an educated guess.

 

[Highlandspring]

The definition of the codes shown on RTT do not correlate with the real meaning of the codes given in the Delay Attribution Board’s “Rules and Principles”, for example I2 is actually AC/DC Trip. In any case delay attribution is a far, far more complex beast than most outside the industry realise. Delay attribution is an internal rail industry process which just happens to occasionally leak into the outside world through open data feeds; fundamentally it isn’t meant for public consumption. You just have to trust* that the vague reasons given on RTT are correct and that the professionals who spend all day every day allocating each delay minute, full and part cancellation know what they are doing even if it appears odd and arcane from outside looking in.



*get it?

 

[The_Train]

I knew there was issues with the wires north of Crewe as LNWR have cancelled a few of their services between Liverpool-Birmingham and run them as ECS which I can understand as it gives them chance to get the service back on track. Surprised Crewe to Euston is affected though, unless the unit had previously been delayed working through Hartford on a different service

 

[The_Train]

Probably has no guard due to guard being caught up in the OLE problem. Could explain if it's ECS. Just an educated guess.

Ah yes, that's a definite potential particularly as the ECS is routed as it would have been if it was in service. I suppose that would make the reason for cancellation on RTT right in a roundabout way

 

[Highlandspring]

Ah yes, that's a definite potential particularly as the ECS is routed as it would have been if it was in service. I suppose that would make the reason for cancellation on RTT right in a roundabout way

Every delay or cancellation is attributed to a root cause. In this case if the guard was displaced because of disruption caused by an overhead line trip then that is the root cause of the cancellation and it’ll be attributed accordingly. So it’s not “right in a roundabout way”, it’s exactly right.

 

[pt_mad]

Ah yes, that's a definite potential particularly as the ECS is routed as it would have been if it was in service. I suppose that would make the reason for cancellation on RTT right in a roundabout way

Plus it's nearly always a Crewe based guard working between Crewe and Rugby or Crewe and Milton Keynes, except for the odd morning and evening northbound and the services via Northampton. And it's going to be Crewe based guards who were caught up in the disruption around Liverpool earlier on.

Drivers work different diagrams to the guards.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Probably has no guard due to guard being caught up in the OLE problem. Could explain if it's ECS. Just an educated guess.

If they were trying to recover the service, why bother running non-stop via Stoke and Stafford and waste another 20-25 minutes navigating the North Staffs loop?

 

[pt_mad]

If they were trying to recover the service, why bother running non-stop via Stoke and Stafford and waste another 20-25 minutes navigating the North Staffs loop?

That would mean they'd need a guard onboard though...

 

[pt_mad]

If they were trying to recover the service, why bother running non-stop via Stoke and Stafford and waste another 20-25 minutes navigating the North Staffs loop?

Oh I get what you mean now. If you're running ECS why bother going via Stoke.

Probably because it's pathed that way and is running on time as ECS. Is it on time? If it were late NWR would probably be happy with it going via Madeley instead.

Wouldn't want it holding up pathed trains via Madeley though unless it was pretty late?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No I mean you'd think they would run direct via Whitmore ECS rather than mess around the Stoke loop which takes significantly longer.
Sorry - our posts crossed.
We'll see what happens when it gets to Milton Keynes (currently 32 early at Rugby!).
It's fun being an RTT armchair fat controller...

 

[pt_mad]

No I mean you'd think they would run direct via Whitmore ECS rather than mess around the Stoke loop which takes significantly longer.
Sorry - our posts crossed.
We'll see what happens when it gets to Milton Keynes (currently 32 early at Rugby!).
It's fun being an RTT armchair fat controller...

I think the 1546 Euston to Crewe terminated at Milton Keynes for similar reasons.

 

[DarloRich]

The definition of the codes shown on RTT do not correlate with the real meaning of the codes given in the Delay Attribution Board’s “Rules and Principles”, for example I2 is actually AC/DC Trip. In any case delay attribution is a far, far more complex beast than most outside the industry realise. Delay attribution is an internal rail industry process which just happens to occasionally leak into the outside world through open data feeds; fundamentally it isn’t meant for public consumption. You just have to trust* that the vague reasons given on RTT are correct and that the professionals who spend all day every day allocating each delay minute, full and part cancellation know what they are doing even if it appears odd and arcane from outside looking in.



*get it?

Correct. I do wish posters wouldn't see a conspiracy everywhere!

 

[The_Train]

Correct. I do wish posters wouldn't see a conspiracy everywhere!

I didn't see any conspiracy, I simply didn't understand why a service was running ECS instead of being in service (due to power supply problems) when it was pathed along the same route. Because I've only recently got back into the hobby of railways, I like to ask questions to things I don't know or understand. By doing this I get to learn things I didn't previously know or understand and I get to increase my level of knowledge on the subject. I'd assumed that a railway forum would be a good place for this but I guess we all know what assuming can do......

 

[The_Train]

The definition of the codes shown on RTT do not correlate with the real meaning of the codes given in the Delay Attribution Board’s “Rules and Principles”, for example I2 is actually AC/DC Trip. In any case delay attribution is a far, far more complex beast than most outside the industry realise. Delay attribution is an internal rail industry process which just happens to occasionally leak into the outside world through open data feeds; fundamentally it isn’t meant for public consumption. You just have to trust* that the vague reasons given on RTT are correct and that the professionals who spend all day every day allocating each delay minute, full and part cancellation know what they are doing even if it appears odd and arcane from outside looking in.



*get it?

Every delay or cancellation is attributed to a root cause. In this case if the guard was displaced because of disruption caused by an overhead line trip then that is the root cause of the cancellation and it’ll be attributed accordingly. So it’s not “right in a roundabout way”, it’s exactly right.

Thank you for your responses, very informative and useful

 

[Highlandspring]

As for why a train might run empty over its booked route during disruption, there are a few factors at play. In non Driver Only Operated areas a passenger train must have a guard/conductor/train manager (call it what you like) to run and if one isn’t available for whatever reason then the train can’t run in passenger service. However the train and driver still need to get to wherever they need to be in order to start their next workings and the only way of doing that is to run empty. If the train and driver don’t get to the right place then you can jeopardise services over a wide area for the rest of the day. With crews and trains out of place disruption spreads quickly and cancellations start racking up. It may seem perverse or illogical to cancel services and run trains around the network empty but it does all make sense in the grand scheme of things.

 

[The_Train]

As for why a train might run empty over its booked route during disruption, there are a few factors at play. In non Driver Only Operated areas a passenger train must have a guard/conductor/train manager (call it what you like) to run and if one isn’t available for whatever reason then the train can’t run in passenger service. However the train and driver still need to get to wherever they need to be in order to start their next workings and the only way of doing that is to run empty. If the train and driver don’t get to the right place then you can jeopardise services over a wide area for the rest of the day. With crews and trains out of place disruption spreads quickly and cancellations start racking up. It may seem perverse or illogical to cancel services and run trains around the network empty but it does all make sense in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah I understand that and it definitely makes sense. In this case I think my confusion arose because of the reason given (on RTT at least) for cancelling the original service, that being of power supply issues, and then running the train via the same route where obviously there was no power supply issue. What I'd not considered is that this reason was the root cause and had created other issues, in this case being a train crew issue.

 

[DarloRich]

I didn't see any conspiracy, I simply didn't understand why a service was running ECS instead of being in service (due to power supply problems) when it was pathed along the same route. Because I've only recently got back into the hobby of railways, I like to ask questions to things I don't know or understand. By doing this I get to learn things I didn't previously know or understand and I get to increase my level of knowledge on the subject. I'd assumed that a railway forum would be a good place for this but I guess we all know what assuming can do......

Right. So the use of the phrase is it just me or does something not add up here was just you asking a question was it?

Sounds to me like you thought something fishy was going on.

 

[sd0733]

The guard for 1u38 comes from Liverpool on 1l82 which was 45 late into Crewe.
There was also mention of 1u41. The guard who works u41 works 1u24 to mkc, 1u33 back to Crewe then pass on 1a43 to Milton Keynes, the pass a43 was 45 late from holyhead meaning they wouldn't be there anywhere near booked time to mkc.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

To round out the story from RTT, in the end the 5U38 ECS, which had been 30 minutes early at Rugby, lost 50 minutes there and by running via Northampton, so took up its 1U38 working from Milton Keynes 22 late and carried on like that to Euston.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O49468/2018/10/19/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P80767/2018/10/19/advanced

 

[The_Train]

Right. So the use of the phrase is it just me or does something not add up here was just you asking a question was it?

Sounds to me like you thought something fishy was going on.

I tried to add the fact that a service had been cancelled due to power problems with the unit running ECS via the same route and wasn't able to reach an answer. Therefore I decided to ask the question to find that answer out and I have since received said answer and I am therefore slightly more knowledgeable than I was before I asked the question. I see that as a good outcome and shows this forum and the enthusiast family working well together