2+2 First Class (i.e. SWR, GTR, WMT) - is it any good?

[Bletchleyite]

From this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/another-fantastic-day-with-avanti.240394/page-6#post-5972997

The general question is whether this sort of First Class is worth it or not? I'll place below a post from that thread as a starter:

I disagree.

On weekends and late weekday evenings there are now only 3 forward facing seats in Avanti first class, Coach K being the only first class coach. 15 backward facing. I don't like travelling backwards.

Sorry, for clarity I was talking about the whole of the 2+1 accommodation rather than First Class as a product, not the present mess. Coach K is a bit sub-optimal and in some ways it'd make more sense to partition off half of one of the other coaches as "actual first class".

However there are things going for coach K - smaller, quieter, more privacy and single airline seats!

On LNR, you get a guaranteed table that is large enough to accommodate a laptop, guaranteed power socket, a curtain/blind (LNR's trains don't have these in standard class and during summer they can be surprisingly useful), pretty much guaranteed seat and a generally quieter ambiance. It's perfect. I can work as though I'm in an office while travelling, the trains are hardly ever cancelled, they generally arrive at their destination no more than 10 minutes late and I can buy good quality food and drink, if needed, from station outlets such as M&S. None of Avanti's silly frills. For the prices charged - less than Avanti's standard class fares - it's ideal. It is closer to Avanti's standard premium offering but, unlike Avanti, I can be sure the trains (i) actually run and, (ii) when running, don't arrive full and standing throughout because the previous train(s) was/were cancelled. Standing for 2+ hours on a non-stop journey is unacceptable.

Interesting. So you don't value seat comfort* at all, then? It's a big part of my choosing to upgrade, and is why I won't do LNR First.

I might even concede to the 2+2 if they e.g. had superior legroom (some Swiss units have 2+2 First but an airline seat pitch of about a metre, for example, so you can really stretch out) but it doesn't - it's just Standard class, indeed it's Standard class with less legroom than some of the seats actually in Standard class. If I want to work on my laptop I head straight for the cab-end extra legroom table (2 per unit) which actually was 1st on the 360s - now I'd pay extra to ensure that!

It also doesn't guarantee you a table because there are airline seats in there and reservations are not available. I do get that the tables are slightly bigger though.

I'd agree one upside is curtains, which you can use to protect only your row from the sun without affecting another row. I hate blinds with a passion because they invariably affect two rows and wish they would all be removed.

* I'm not talking about subjective things like whether I happen to prefer Grammer E3000s to Compins or whether the use of Sophias in 1st and Kiels in Standard on the 730s is the right way round, because whether any given individual happens to prefer a given type of seat is subjective, but rather objective seat comfort matters like added legroom and width.

 

[baffobear]

Honestly, on most commuter services the answer is a no. Seats aren't guaranteed in nearly all cases, the 1st class area itself is very small, there are no at seat or additional refeshments provided, and the upgrade is usually a leather seat which in many cases is equal to or less comfortable than the standard class seat.

Poor Examples include:
Southern 377s
SWR 450s

Fair Examples include:
SWR 159s out of waterloo
SWR 444s out of waterloo
Avanti West Coast Pendolinos (Better under virgin where upgrades were available on train, and usually for a fiver)
Mk4s LNER/East Coast

 

[busestrains]

On all of the 377/387 the First Class is 100% identical to Standard Class so there is absolutely no difference at all. It is a huge rip off. Southeastern have abolished First Class so GTR really ought to do the same on their trains. I doubt many people on GTR buy First Class tickets. On the 377/387 fleet it is a joke.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Avanti West Coast Pendolinos (Better under virgin where upgrades were available on train, and usually for a fiver)

Upgrades are available to Standard Premium on all trains bar Voyagers (same seats) which is more than Virgin did.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Poor Examples include:
Southern 377s
SWR 450s

Fair Examples include:
SWR 159s out of waterloo
SWR 444s out of waterloo
Avanti West Coast Pendolinos (Better under virgin where upgrades were available on train, and usually for a fiver)
Mk4s LNER/East Coast

I'm confused about the mention of those in bold, which have 2+1 seating, not 2+2 seating. I also find it interesting that you value Class 444 First Class over Class 450 First Class, as travelling 1st on a 450 gains you armrests, 2+2 seating and tables which are unavailable in standard class. On Class 444, armrests, 2+2 seating and tables are available in both classes, meaning you have far fewer reasons to pay to upgrade, but everyone's opinions will differ I suppose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm confused about the mention of those in bold, which have 2+1 seating, not 2+2 seating. I also find it interesting that you value Class 444 First Class over Class 450 First Class, as travelling 1st on a 450 gains you armrests, 2+2 seating and tables which are unavailable in standard class. On Class 444, armrests, 2+2 seating and tables are available in both classes, meaning you have far fewer reasons to pay to upgrade, but everyone's opinions will differ I suppose.

There is that aspect, but there's also that the 450 1st is a bad Standard class, whereas the 444 1st is a very good Standard class (which I could almost see being marketed as a different approach to a "standard premium" type class than Avanti went with, a bit more like TPE's original Class 158 First Class).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There is that aspect, but there's also that the 450 1st is a bad Standard class, whereas the 444 1st is a very good Standard class (which I could almost see being marketed as a different approach to a "standard premium" type class than Avanti went with, a bit more like TPE's original Class 158 First Class).

Quite so, but that's what I'm saying.

* I'm not talking about subjective things like whether I happen to prefer Grammer E3000s to Compins or whether the use of Sophias in 1st and Kiels in Standard on the 730s is the right way round, because whether any given individual happens to prefer a given type of seat is subjective, but rather objective seat comfort matters like added legroom and width.

Your inclusion of this disclaimer made me very happy

 

[[.n]]

I can only really comment on SWR mainly on the 444 - so the 2+2 is okay and still worth it in my opinion - but its a considerable drop in overall comfort on the pre-refurb SWT version with 2+1 (not to mention the Wi-Fi is still rubbish and of course there is no longer a catering trolley).

It's always still mostly full/well used when I travel (with 1st class ticket holders) on the SWML (WAT-WEY) line at least. I no longer travel regularly enough to know if at morning "commuter" times its still a fight at Winchester to get on and get the few remaining 1st class seats - I recall it often used to get full as early as Brockenhurst

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's always still mostly full/well used when I travel (with 1st class ticket holders) on the SWML (WAT-WEY) line at least. I no longer travel regularly enough to know if at morning "commuter" times its still a fight at Winchester to get on and get the few remaining 1st class seats - I recall it often used to get full as early as Brockenhurst

The catering service can’t reasonably be used as a factor for SWR’s First Class offering as when it was provided, you would only receive a complementary something (usually a hot drink and biscuit) if travelling before 10am towards London, and half of the time the trolley didn’t run anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm confused about the mention of those in bold, which have 2+1 seating, not 2+2 seating.

Perhaps the earlier poster thought the intended changes to 2+2 on the 158/159 fleet, had already happened as per the dates in the last franchise agreement.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Perhaps the earlier poster thought the intended changes to 2+2 on the 158/159 fleet, had already happened as per the dates in the last franchise agreement.

He commented that these were decent/fair examples though, and I would have assumed he would not have been able to make this judgement without seeing it?

He’s also commented on Mk4 and 390 First

 

[fgwrich]

There is that aspect, but there's also that the 450 1st is a bad Standard class, whereas the 444 1st is a very good Standard class (which I could almost see being marketed as a different approach to a "standard premium" type class than Avanti went with, a bit more like TPE's original Class 158 First Class).

If I were SWR, I would certainly consider marketing their First Class as Standard Premium because, in reality, it isn't as good as it used to be. The First Class seats in the 450s are quite firm, bolt upright and the e-leather is quite slippery. First Class in the 444s is ok, but they've created themselves the issue by using what is frankly a standard class seat. It has a more premium feel than standard, but less first class than FC.

First Class in the 159s remains the standout. Big, comfortable seats in 2+1, reading lights with decent tables, and somewhat annoyingly for the 159 fleet, the only plug sockets in the units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I were SWR, I would certainly consider marketing their First Class as Standard Premium because, in reality, it isn't as good as it used to be. The First Class seats in the 450s are quite firm, bolt upright and the e-leather is quite slippery. First Class in the 444s is ok, but they've created themselves the issue by using what is frankly a standard class seat. It has a more premium feel than standard, but less first class than FC.

It IS a Standard Class seat, though a quite good one. As used on the GA FLIRTs and Class 196. Yes, SWR are selling as first class a product which is Standard class on Birmingham area local stopping services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, SWR are selling as first class a product which is Standard class on Birmingham area local stopping services.

While standard class on the same train has the product which was First class on Colchester area local stopping services.

 

[jackot]

First Class in the 159s remains the standout. Big, comfortable seats in 2+1, reading lights with decent tables, and somewhat annoyingly for the 159 fleet, the only plug sockets in the units.

The 158/159 first class on SWR is excellent in my opinion for comfort, and possibly the best in the UK for non-intercity stock. Coupled with their lovely ride quality it really makes for a good experience, just a shame there is no catering anymore. 444s are not quite as pleasant, but I still think they offer enough comfort over standard to be a decent offering.

Controversial opinion: I would argue that the 165 first class (when all the tables are intact which I admit is a rarity) is quite good for 2+2 first class - with comfortable seats and a much quieter experience - put some proper tables in and it would be quite a good offering. 166 first class is better still, with full tables and good luggage space - although much could be said about the cleanliness, broken switches, taped up doors and noisy a/c (I'm not claiming it is perfect by any stretch)

As far as GTRs 'offering', I cannot understand why people still pay for it - the only positive I can think of is that it might be less busy than the rest of the train, yet I have been on plenty of 377s where First Class is full and the rest of the train is deserted.

 

[gabrielhj07]

The 158/159 first class on SWR is excellent in my opinion for comfort, and possibly the best in the UK for non-intercity stock. Coupled with their lovely ride quality it really makes for a good experience, just a shame there is no catering anymore. 444s are not quite as pleasant, but I still think they offer enough comfort over standard to be a decent offering.

I’d go further and say that the 159 First Class is the most pleasant way of travelling by rail anywhere in the UK. Every first class cabin should be modelled on it.

The 444 is decent, but not as good as when it was 2+1.

 

[Clansman]

It won't necessarily count, but Coach D on Aventi Voyagers show how good a premium offering can be with 2+2 seating layouts.

And that's before you consider reclining seats and slightly aesthetically changes to make the seata look more visually appealing - or even slightly widening each seat by a cm or two.

I would take a table of 4 in coach D over a table of 4 in first class any day on the Avanti Voyagers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It won't necessarily count, but Coach D on Aventi Voyagers show how good a premium offering can be with 2+2 seating layouts.

Some would argue that is what long distance Standard class should look like. As indeed it does on e.g. Class 397.

On the other hand I'm quite surprised that isn't sold as Standard Premium so it can be offered on the Voyagers.

 

[[.n]]

The catering service can’t reasonably be used as a factor for SWR’s First Class offering as when it was provided, you would only receive a complementary something (usually a hot drink and biscuit) if travelling before 10am towards London, and half of the time the trolley didn’t run anyway.

True - it was more of a dig that SWT was better than SWR. However I was talking about my experiences , and actually I almost always got the drink and biscuit - the advantage of my train(s) was that there were two trolleys and at Bournemouth when they boarded they usually started with 1st class

 

[Merle Haggard]

On the other hand I'm quite surprised that isn't sold as Standard Premium so it can be offered on the Voyagers.

Not so long ago Coach D (or at least part) was first class on occasion - the New St. starter set on the 16.30 Euston for instance (it was joined by another set from ?Shrewsbury). Seemed to only happen in the Winter timetable, didn't come back in the winter of ?2017-18. Laid with crockery/cutlery and antimacassars, and at seat.

Surprised what you suggest doesn't happen - D is noticeably better than the other Standard cars, in my opinion.

 

[Towers]

Controversial opinion: I would argue that the 165 first class (when all the tables are intact which I admit is a rarity) is quite good for 2+2 first class - with comfortable seats and a much quieter experience - put some proper tables in and it would be quite a good offering. 166 first class is better still, with full tables and good luggage space - although much could be said about the cleanliness, broken switches, taped up doors and noisy a/c (I'm not claiming it is perfect by any stretch)

It should be remembered, of course, that GWR's Turbo fleet - particularly the 166s, which are now limited to 'West' operations - runs almost entirely with First declassified, save for a very small number of ticket holders on Gatwick services. That may well be relevant when discussing the level of upkeep!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not so long ago Coach D (or at least part) was first class on occasion - the New St. starter set on the 16.30 Euston for instance (it was joined by another set from ?Shrewsbury). Seemed to only happen in the Winter timetable, didn't come back in the winter of ?2017-18. Laid with crockery/cutlery and antimacassars, and at seat.

Indeed that's the reason it is laid out as it is - as a "hybrid coach".

 

[jackot]

It should be remembered, of course, that GWR's Turbo fleet - particularly the 166s, which are now limited to 'West' operations - runs almost entirely with First declassified, save for a very small number of ticket holders on Gatwick services. That may well be relevant when discussing the level of upkeep!

Yes that is to be factored in. However, it still does not mean that the First Class ticket holders on the North Downs and Cardiff-Pompey routes should be neglected - if they can't keep an acceptable level of service it should just be declassified on all the routes. It does mirror the rest of the standard interior though, with serious wear and tear.

 

[Towers]

Yes that is to be factored in. However, it still does not mean that the First Class ticket holders on the North Downs and Cardiff-Pompey routes should be neglected - if they can't keep an acceptable level of service it should just be declassified on all the routes. It does mirror the rest of the standard interior though, with serious wear and tear.

There's no First Class on Pompey - Cardiff, literally just the Gatwicks!

 

[jackot]

There's no First Class on Pompey - Cardiff, literally just the Gatwicks!

Sorry about that, completely forgot that had changed. It would make some sense to why First Class seems to be neglected, but still no excuse for the overall poor state of the trains, which I get is a complete other discussion. The 165s on the North Downs are based at Reading rather than St Phillip's Marsh, so you would think they would make more of an effort to keep the First Class in slightly better condition for the Reading ones, and yet I have found first class to be in a worse state on the Reading units that on the West, despite the West tending to have heavier loadings. It's a shame as it could be a very good product.

I’d go further and say that the 159 First Class is the most pleasant way of travelling by rail anywhere in the UK. Every first class cabin should be modelled on it.

I would be inclined to agree, it seems to get everything right other than the inescapable noise of the engines, which I don't personally view as a problem. I don't know if this is still planned, but weren't SWR planning to install 2+2 First Class on them pre-Covid? Lets hope they forgot about that idea.

 

[swt_passenger]

…I don't know if this is still planned, but weren't SWR planning to install 2+2 First Class on them pre-Covid? Let’s hope they forgot about that idea.

Yes, it was definitely planned as I mentioned yesterday, there were specific details about the resulting capacity changes in the franchise agreement.

 

[Doomotron]

On all of the 377

Not true; the newer subclasses of the '1st generation' 377s (/4, /5, possible late /1) have different seats in first class which are visually similar but have nicer armrests, a taller headrest and are sprung, which makes a large difference.

 

[antharro]

444 2+1 first class was superb and worth the upgrade. The "refurbished" first class is 2+2, non-reclining, upright seats, harder and considerably less comfortable than standard class. I used to upgrade to first whenever I could but since the refurb I haven't bothered. Not worth it.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I used to upgrade to first whenever I could but since the refurb I haven't bothered.

Same here.

 

[Bn2020]

In fairness the 444s have a good layout, comfortable seats and good legroom in standard. Arguably one of the best passenger experiences of any intercity train.
The usual SWR caveats apply. There may be no seats left and there won’t be catering.