2019 GWR journey times

[gtat]

Hi all,

I've been trying (and failing) to find the new average journey times and the trains per hour from London to Chippenham and London to Bath once the new electrification / IET rollout is completed.

Is anyone able to help? Also, is this planned for the May 2019 or December 2019 timetable?

Thanks!

 

[_toommm_]

Hi all,

I've been trying (and failing) to find the new average journey times and the trains per hour from London to Chippenham and London to Bath once the new electrification / IET rollout is completed.

Is anyone able to help? Also, is this planned for the May 2019 or December 2019 timetable?

Thanks!

We're nowhere near having the timetables ready for that period yet hence why you can't find information. Even if timetables were still being done 12 weeks in advance you'd only be able to see a few weeks in January, but TOCs are working on a six week turnaround at the moment.

 

[jimm]

Hi all,

I've been trying (and failing) to find the new average journey times and the trains per hour from London to Chippenham and London to Bath once the new electrification / IET rollout is completed.

Is anyone able to help? Also, is this planned for the May 2019 or December 2019 timetable?

Thanks!

This presentation is a version of one GWR gave to various interested parties in 2015. It includes a map showing the proposed frequencies in the peak and off-peak on the major routes and a table of what the fastest and typical journey times would be, compared with 2013 timetables.

That is still pretty much all that is available publicly at this stage.

http://travelwatchsouthwest.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Travelwatch-Presentation-October-2015.pdf

 

[gtat]

Thanks. Yes, I was hoping to find proposed typical journey times and number of trains per hour, rather than times of specific services (I.e. a rough idea of planned service, rather than the actual timetable).

The presentation is useful! Thanks.

 

[CMRail]

Bristol summary:

4tph Peak and Off Peak.

Peak operation:
• 2tph London Paddington via Bath
Calling at Bath, Chippenham, Swindon, Didcot, Reading, Paddington
• 1tph London Paddington via Bath
Calling at Bath, Chippenham, Reading, Paddington
• 1tph London Paddington via Parkway
Calling at Parkway and Paddington

Operated by nine or ten coach intercity express trains.

Off Peak operation:
• 2tph Paddington via Bath
Calling at Bath, Chippenham, Swindon, Didcot, Reading and Paddington
• 2tph Paddington via Parkway
Calling at Parkway and Paddington

Operated mainly by five coach intercity express trains.

Departing at quarter past, half past, quarter too and on the hour from Bristol.

 

[jimm]

Sorry but that's not the case. The limited-stop off-peak Bristol trains running via Parkway should be five-car sets, but the trains via Chippenham and Bath should be nine-car or 2x5 all day, reflecting traffic from all the places they will stop at.

 

[CMRail]

Sorry but that's not the case. The limited-stop off-peak Bristol trains running via Parkway should be five-car sets, but the trains via Chippenham and Bath should be nine-car or 2x5 all day, reflecting traffic from all the places they will stop at.

I always thought five cars wouldn’t be enough for the Bath route, thanks for clarification.

 

[Kite159]

And even 5 coaches will probably be overkill for some of the off-peak Bristol fasts, unless GWR loads them up with cheap advances when at the same time removes the cheaper advances for the services via Bath.

 

[Mag_seven]

This presentation is a version of one GWR gave to various interested parties in 2015. It includes a map showing the proposed frequencies in the peak and off-peak on the major routes and a table of what the fastest and typical journey times would be, compared with 2013 timetables.

Would that still be applicable though given that, for the time being at least, Chippenham-Bath-Bristol TM and Bristol TM-Bristol Parkway are not going to be wired?

 

[CMRail]

Would that still be applicable though given that, for the time being at least, Chippenham-Bath-Bristol TM and Bristol TM-Bristol Parkway are not going to be wired?

No different to Parkway journey times, Bath is about a one or two minute longer ride non electrified.

 

[Envoy]

So, we are going to end up with turn up and go services but without turn up and go prices? What is the point of cheap advance tickets for specific trains when so many services are in operation? Surely, we should have pay on the day with prices set according to predicted demand?

 

[jimm]

And even 5 coaches will probably be overkill for some of the off-peak Bristol fasts, unless GWR loads them up with cheap advances when at the same time removes the cheaper advances for the services via Bath.

So, we are going to end up with turn up and go services but without turn up and go prices? What is the point of cheap advance tickets for specific trains when so many services are in operation? Surely, we should have pay on the day with prices set according to predicted demand?

Ah yes, let's immediately assume the worst, when we know nothing at all so far about what GWR's approach to pricing will be once the enhanced Bristol services start.

Not that it has anything much to do with journey times and service patterns the OP was asking about anyway.

 

[Mintona]

I don’t think the post above is correct anyway. There’s never been a mention of 4tph to Bristol Temple Meads during the peak, only the off peak. And certainly not with specific calling patterns.

Just going to have to wait and see when the timetable comes out I think.

 

[jimm]

I don’t think the post above is correct anyway. There’s never been a mention of 4tph to Bristol Temple Meads during the peak, only the off peak. And certainly not with specific calling patterns.

Just going to have to wait and see when the timetable comes out I think.

As shown on the services map on slide 8 from the presentation I linked to above, there will be 3 London-Bristol trains per hour in the peak, all running to/from Temple Meads via Bath.

In the peaks, Parkway gets a third London service, running from/to Cardiff and Swansea, which will be non-stop between Bristol Parkway and Paddington.

The 4tph Bristol service is off-peak only.

The stopping patterns between London, Reading, Didcot, Swindon and Bristol Parkway are clear from that map.

 

[cle]

But still nothing on journey times... I'd imagine the best winners would be the up Parkway to London non-stop, padded to hell I'd guess however... but then also the services which stop the most, in percentage terms, due to shorter dwells and electric acceleration - so the slowest Cardiff patterns, for instance.

 

[jimm]

As I said in post 3, the presentation I linked to there also has a slide (No 9) with a table showing the projected fastest journey times and typical journey times between key stations that are planned for the new timetable.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Until Network Rail offer a timetable, there is no confirmation of even the frequency, let alone any journey times. And if you read the railway press, effective timetable planning resources are somewhat scarce at the moment.

 

[Clarence Yard]

And the new timetable has now been put back to December 2019, due to the well publicised NR timetable resourcing issues so goodness knows when GWR will find out exactly what they will be running, let alone the journey times.

Until then it looks like the existing timetable with the existing HST journey times.

 

[CMRail]

And the new timetable has now been put back to December 2019, due to the well publicised NR timetable resourcing issues so goodness knows when GWR will find out exactly what they will be running, let alone the journey times.

Until then it looks like the existing timetable with the existing HST journey times.

Are you having a laugh?

No no no.

What. The.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No I’m not. NR are in deep trouble with their ability to process timetables. The centralisation of resources at MK has not worked.

For May 2019 alone NR estimated they had twice the workload their capability could cope with. Hard choices are being made by DfT/NR, in order to stop more Thameslink/Northern meltdowns and sort out the existing problems.

With the necessary infrastructure still being constructed, they want to get it right first time because, as GWR interfaces with so many other operators, if they get it wrong, it will be big.

 

[Mintona]

Ah it’s a shame to hear that. By next year there will be loads of time spent waiting for departure times at Swindon and Bristol Parkway in particular on down trains. And I’m quite looking forward to seeing how quickly London to Bristol Parkway can be done non stop on electric.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

No I’m not. NR are in deep trouble with their ability to process timetables. The centralisation of resources at MK has not worked.

For May 2019 alone NR estimated they had twice the workload their capability could cope with. Hard choices are being made by DfT/NR, in order to stop more Thameslink/Northern meltdowns and sort out the existing problems.

With the necessary infrastructure still being constructed, they want to get it right first time because, as GWR interfaces with so many other operators, if they get it wrong, it will be big.

The more worrying thing is that, having fallen behind the curve, NR will now find it increasingly difficult to recover the situation. You’ve got managers without experience making decisions about the capability of their hard-pressed staff, and the new procedures which are meant to aid recovery and control the volume of change (i.e. de risk the process) are so bureaucratic that basic timetable processing tasks take considerably longer now than they did previously. Everyone is now basically running at maximum speed simply to remain in the same place. NR don’t seem to grasp that there is no such thing as a ‘rollover’ timetable, on a railway where infrastructure, train fleets and passenger demand are constantly changing. They just don’t have the correct mindset. What other organisation would attempt to prevent the seasonal summer timetable enhancements from being implemented, on the basis that ‘no, it’s a rollover so no change permitted!’ Thankfully said organisation has seen the reality and changed its mind on that count. What did they think, that the nice summer weather and 300% increase in leisure travel will obediently wait until the railway gets its arse into gear?

 

[Clarence Yard]

They had to have it spelt out in letters six foot high that summer seasonal trains on the Western had been a feature of its timetable for well over 100 years and it wasn’t going to be politically acceptable not to process them.

Likewise this December it had to be pointed out to them that retaining OOC was not an option and they had to accept IET units being timed to NP instead.

They have lost the plot and it won’t be too long before Andrew Haines starts to make his presence felt.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I’ll believe that when I see it. From where I stand, this detachment from reality is a direct result of his new risk-averse approach. Unless he proposes something radical - such as reinstating the regional planning offices - then I’m not holding my breath.

 

[jimm]

Until Network Rail offer a timetable, there is no confirmation of even the frequency, let alone any journey times. And if you read the railway press, effective timetable planning resources are somewhat scarce at the moment.

Those frequencies are what the DfT told FGW it wanted it to deliver when the current direct award was agreed four years ago and what the 800 fleet was ordered to deliver, so I think that whenever we do get the new GWML timetable - assuming Network Rail gets its act together eventually - it's probably a fair bet that's what the frequencies will look like. Similarly the expected journey times look perfectly plausible, based on what we already know about the performance of IETs.

I’ll believe that when I see it. From where I stand, this detachment from reality is a direct result of his new risk-averse approach. Unless he proposes something radical - such as reinstating the regional planning offices - then I’m not holding my breath.

Perhaps you might give Mr Haines a chance to get his head around things and decide on a course of action that will get results. He has been in post for all of seven and a half weeks so far.

Half-cock kneejerk reactions are about the last thing required right in the current situation.

 

[The Planner]

Too far gone down the central role to split it back out, not unless devolution really goes full pelt and you would just have the same situation again but probably worse. None of the old school would come back. Not sure how the currently talked about September and December change is going to work either.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Those frequencies are what the DfT told FGW it wanted it to deliver when the current direct award was agreed four years ago and what the 800 fleet was ordered to deliver, so I think that whenever we do get the new GWML timetable - assuming Network Rail gets its act together eventually - it's probably a fair bet that's what the frequencies will look like. Similarly the expected journey times look perfectly plausible, based on what we already know about the performance of IETs.

Given what we know about the disconnect between DfT and NR, I can say with 100% certainty that just because the DfT has agreed something with a franchise operator, it does not necessarily mean it is possible to achieve. I mean come on, look at the ECML farce - the DfT specified enhanced intercity timetables to VTEC then failed to follow through with direction and funding to Network Rail to ensure that they built the necessary supporting infrastructure!

The major difficulty with the GWML timetable will prove to be the freight pathing. I suspect this will ultimately limit overall journey time improvements and possibly prevent certain GWR services from running at all. There are a lot of conditional freight paths (run as required) to accommodate, many of them 60mph and it won't all fit between Challow and Wootton Bassett Jcn.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Too far gone down the central role to split it back out, not unless devolution really goes full pelt and you would just have the same situation again but probably worse. None of the old school would come back. Not sure how the currently talked about September and December change is going to work either.

I agree, but devolution coupled with integration between NR and operators could in theory see regional joint planning offices? In the same way that Route Control functions are increasingly integral. For example, you could have a Birmingham timetable office with NR, XC, WMR/LNW and VT staff all sitting together. It would mean some larger TOCs might need regionally split teams but it worked for BR, why not for them?