2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro London)

[Domh245]

Not so sure, given that the 92 stock has a load of obsolete electronics (see the Networkers on National Rail) and has some precedent for bits falling off, that is wholly accurate. The Bakerloo line undoubtedly has corrosion issues but the mechanicals are pretty basic and easily maintained.

Most of those obsolete electronics are being replaced as I understand it, as part of the Central Line Improvement Programme which should set the 1992TS up for a while yet

 

[LUYMun]

Looking at some of the comments on the train lengths, I seem to have been reminded of an online London Transport Museum Friends talk, where a slide featured the potential bogie configuration of the NTFL, with the Piccadilly being separated. Perhaps for other lines it could indicate differing car lengths and bogie configuration for each line? Articulated trains for the W&C, anyone? The screenshot is on YouTube, featured at 57 minutes 13 seconds.

 

[stuu]

Would articulation and walk-through cars be possible? I would assume it isn't, but I may be wrong

 

[ivzem]

Looking at some of the comments on the train lengths, I seem to have been reminded of an online London Transport Museum Friends talk, where a slide featured the potential bogie configuration of the NTFL, with the Piccadilly being separated. Perhaps for other lines it could indicate differing car lengths and bogie configuration for each line? Articulated trains for the W&C, anyone? The screenshot is on YouTube, featured at 57 minutes 13 seconds.

see 58:35: "[...] two of the ideas where the bogies might be accommodated [...] that was produced by PriestmanGoode for TfL in a design study. Having come up with some ideas we invited the industry to look at our ideas and come back with their own ideas [...]". the piccadilly hasn't been separated here. both of the options below the conventional layout are for the NTfL project in general. this was at a very early design stage, before manufacturers were even brought to the table. and (if funded, etc.) a Central line version with slightly shorter cars and W&C fleet replacement are both on the table already i think?

 

[TRAX]

Would articulation and walk-through cars be possible? I would assume it isn't, but I may be wrong

Yes, loads of trains have that.

 

[Pdf]

I'm pretty sure they will be fully walk through.

 

[TRAX]

I'm pretty sure they will be fully walk through.

Yes but not articulated.

 

[Thirteen]

I don't think there are many if any modern rolling stock that isn't walkthrough.

 

[Mikey C]

But I assume that the older units especially the 1972 stock are becoming harder to maintain. Not a like for like comparison but the Class 483s were completely knackered by the time they left service and I'm not sure they can last until the late 2020s/early 2030s, I know TfL themselves said they was a chance they wouldn't be replaced until the late 2030s or early 2040s but I think that is unlikely.

Once the 73s go, the 72s will really be outliers. The number of staff able to maintain such "analogue" trains will be diminishing too.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Yes but not articulated.

Sorry, I'm lost. The trains are "bendy", therefore they are articulated, no?

 

[LUYMun]

Sorry, I'm lost. The trains are "bendy", therefore they are articulated, no?

No, articulated trains require the bogies to be shared between two coaches, which are not present on the new tube stock.

 

[bramling]

The 92 stock upgrades are more significant than those for the Bakerloo, which mechanically are still pretty much original! Surely they have to be replaced first?

It will be a combination of political factors and how the 72 and 92 stocks hold up after their respective programmes of work.

Isle of Wight and Tyne & Wear Metro both give a cautionary shout about what can happen when old trains are kept going indefinitely, though the 72 stock has a couple of advantages, one being that they’re not worked too hard, and also there has been a massive pool of spare parts from the Victoria and Northern lines.

 

[Fazaar1889]

No, articulated trains require the bogies to be shared between two coaches, which are not present on the new tube stock.

Ooh OK, makes sense thanks. So what would you call these trains? Bendy? Is there another name?

 

[stuu]

Yes, loads of trains have that.

I meant within the tube loading gauge, which I thought was obvious from the thread title

 

[TRAX]

Ooh OK, makes sense thanks. So what would you call these trains? Bendy? Is there another name?

Walkthrough or fully-gangwayed… not sure there’s a term, really…

 

[Nym]

It will be a combination of political factors and how the 72 and 92 stocks hold up after their respective programmes of work.

Isle of Wight and Tyne & Wear Metro both give a cautionary shout about what can happen when old trains are kept going indefinitely, though the 72 stock has a couple of advantages, one being that they’re not worked too hard, and also there has been a massive pool of spare parts from the Victoria and Northern lines.

Except the massive pile of spares for the Bakerloo was swiftly 5S’ed out of the company under some previous Managment…

 

[DanNCL]

No, articulated trains require the bogies to be shared between two coaches, which are not present on the new tube stock.

You’re specifically referring to jacobs bogies, which are the most common form of articulation but not the only one. An articulated train is a train where one carriage is structurally dependent on at least one other - the new Piccadilly line fleet qualifies as the ‘floating’ cars depend on the bogied cars for structural support.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Looks fantastic, should be an upgrade to both Piccadilly and Bakerloo services! The windows look rather small though - I very much like the windows on the 92 stock (may be a side-grade in that aspect!)

Are the doors equally spaced at X?m inter-door pitch, in a similar way to the 345's at 7.5m? Non-uniform coach size makes it hard to tell (anyone got a dimensional schematic from TfL yet...!?)

The 1992 stock windows are not forgiving in summer months. They cause Central line journeys to feel like travelling in a mobile greenhouse.

 

[rebmcr]

Would articulation and walk-through cars be possible? I would assume it isn't, but I may be wrong

It was possible all the way back in 1992 with Manchester's T-68 trams.

 

[stuu]

It was possible all the way back in 1992 with Manchester's T-68 trams.

Quite a lot more space under one of those compared to a tube train though

 

[trebor79]

They're not, but if these will be in service for the next 30 years I don't think making them fully accessible, including on stations with the foot-and-a-half gap like Bank, is too much to ask.

True, but retractable steps would increase station dwell times.
And perhaps it is too much to ask... The tube itself will not be full accessible by then, and I've never seen a single wheelchair user on the accessible parts of the tube anyway. A friend of mine worked in the DfT when all this kicked off, and the cheapest and most deliverable solution to tube accessibility was to provide free taxis for those who required them. It's all a bit of a joke really. Harrington Humps at Walthamstow Vic line platforms, but no lift to platform level. Not sure how wheelchair users are meant to use the escalators or stairs.

 

[stuu]

Level boarding is useful for many more people than just wheelchair users

 

[DanNCL]

True, but retractable steps would increase station dwell times.

Only by a few seconds. The added time wasn't considered to be significant enough to prevent sliding steps from being fitted to the new Tyne & Wear Metro fleet, which will be expected to run at similar intervals to that of the Piccadilly line at peak times.

 

[Purple Train]

I don't like the headlamps.

The cars not having doors at their very ends will help with the gaps. The closer your door is to the middle of the car, the nearer it will be to the curved platform edge.

Only in one direction.

At Paddington platform 10 (if I remember correctly) the middle doors on 345s were locked out due to the sharp curve creating too large a gap.

Forgive my ignorance - which lines will these be rolled out on?

 

[Thirteen]

It will be a combination of political factors and how the 72 and 92 stocks hold up after their respective programmes of work.

Isle of Wight and Tyne & Wear Metro both give a cautionary shout about what can happen when old trains are kept going indefinitely, though the 72 stock has a couple of advantages, one being that they’re not worked too hard, and also there has been a massive pool of spare parts from the Victoria and Northern lines.

I wonder how long TfL are expecting both to last before they need replacing?

 

[Mawkie]

and I've never seen a single wheelchair user on the accessible parts of the tube anyway.

This is such a random thing to say.

I escorted hundreds of Mobility Impaired People whilst working on stations, and continue to see MIPs travelling all over the network.

Perhaps the reason you haven't seen many any wheelchair users is because they are restricted to very few parts of the network. The best way to increase numbers of disabled people is to make it easier to travel around the network unhindered by infrastructure that is lacking in accessibility.

 

[Recessio]

Forgive my ignorance - which lines will these be rolled out on?

Picadilly, Bakerloo, Central, Waterloo & City.

Picadilly aiming for 2024 introduction to service.

 

[Dstock7080]

Piccadilly are aiming for July 2024 first delivery to Ruislip and entry into service 2025.
Other Lines haven’t received funding yet.

 

[Snow1964]

Piccadilly are aiming for July 2024 first delivery to Ruislip and entry into service 2025.
Other Lines haven’t received funding yet.

Currently 94 trains ordered to replace 87.5 trains of 1973 stock, there are options (not yet exercised) to take order upto about 250 trains

From memory it is 86 for straight replacement of Piccadilly line at 24 trains per hour, 8 to increase frequency to 27tph. Then there is unfunded expansion to between 30-36 tph (which requires complete resignalling too) which requires more trains.

Each of the new trains has 10% more passenger capacity than 1973 stock. So with frequency increase increases capacity by 23.7%. However the TfL Board have just received a report on Elizabeth line usage and section 6.4 (b) shows it has abstracted 3.4% (18% of 19% from other underground lines) Piccadilly line users

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s20504/elc-20230725-part-1-item10-elizabeth-line-passenger-usage-insight.pdf

So the new usage levels logically about 30% of the 94 trains on order aren't actually needed anymore, although difficulties of finding suitable reversing locations to concentrate service on busier bits probably reduces this to nearer 15 trains not needed on paper. It is why there have been suggestions that some make be swapped to Bakerloo, allowing smaller order to convert Bakerloo.

 

[Pdf]

How long does TfL have to exercise the options?