The funding agreement announced today is just a capital grant. While the new Piccadilly line trains featured heavily in the announcement it's not allocated for that one specific project. I'd expect TfL considered the Piccadilly line trains committed when they signed the deal several years ago, it's now just where the money gets pulled from to pay for it.
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2024 Tube Stock (Siemens Inspiro)
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Picc trains cost £1500m at time of order announcement.
TfL getting £250m for capital projects todays announcement.
If the entire £250m could have been spent on Picc stock, it still covers only one sixth of it.
The big spend for 2024 stock will be the Central Line since the plan was to order 100 of them. W&C will be 10 trains and Bakerloo will be 40 trains.
Using rough maths, Bakerloo Line replacement stock would be around £640m, Central around £1.59bn and W&C £159m.
Using rough maths, Bakerloo Line replacement stock would be around £640m, Central around £1.59bn and W&C £159m.
eh_oh
Member
Surely it only needs 4 or so maximum?
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Five, I think, as you'll need four rakes in service in the peaks plus an allowance for one to be on maintenance.
The calculation of 10 units probably assumes the present pairing arrangement, although that would no longer be necessary.
Dstock7080
Established Member
4 are currently required each peak hour, TTN198/22
Mikey C
Established Member
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With all the work that's been done on the 1992 stock, surely any replacements won't arrive for another 10 years? Indeed I suspect the "gap" at Goole will be after the Bakerloo line trains are built.
2040 would mean it would be life expired by then at 48 years old, I suspect they'll be replaced earlier than that in the 2030s.
Sure 48 years old, but the interview Geoff Marshall did with one of the CLIP project managers suggested the trains had been 'stripped down to their frames' with wiring, computers, lighting replaced, as well as the traction motors. Might extend them significantly?
Nym
Established Member
I wouldn’t base the health of a fleet on a Project Manager’s understanding of the work being done.
The DTS wiring is being replaced but the majority of the control wiring is not.
Stripped down for corrosion repairs yes, but cracks won’t always be addressed.
Lighting isn’t exactly a major component…
If TfL were serious about life extending the fleet then there’d be a lot more work going into them that has come out of engineering as proposals over the years but a lot of these lifecycle cost reduction works are not being done…
Mikey C
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I'd be amazed if the 92s made it that long though!
Sounds to me like TfL have been given the nod on the new Bakerloo trains
www.mylondon.news
"Transport for London’s (TfL) commissioner has confirmed that ‘preparatory works’ to replace the Underground’s oldest trains are underway. The Bakerloo line’s stock is the oldest on the network, having been introduced in 1972.
Officials said that they are planning a broader upgrade of the route similar to that underway for the Piccadilly line. Stage one will be replacing the existing, ‘life-expired’ fleet.
TfL plans to purchase the new trains within TfL’s contract with Siemens Mobility Ltd for the supply of the new Piccadilly line fleet. If this goes ahead, Londoners could be riding brand new carriages on the Bakerloo line from the late 2020s."
Everything TfL has said about when the Bakerloo line trains will be replaced
Sadiq Khan joked that the Bakerloo line's Underground trains are as old as he is
birchesgreen
Established Member
Thats a shame, the 72 stock are a year younger than me, one of the previous given retirement dates was 2040 which would have been after i retire myself. 
RacsoMoquette
Member
Finally the inevitable has been confirmed. Date has been set to replace the hard working however not economically viable 1972TS, at least we are not waiting another fifteen years before a possible withdrawal when the units will have probably fallen apart or are in a heavily modded state!
If that is the case though, will TFL continue the RVAR program with the installation of PIS, Wheelchair Bays and LED lighting? As apparently the whole program was set to go on until at least the late 2020s and if it continues to go ahead, the last units to receive the modifications will shortly be withdrawn and scraped.
It would be thourghly intriguing to whiteness a 2024TS with Bakerloo Line brown decor. I wonder what the new Moquette will be like, as TFL are currently in the theme of bespoke fabric designs according to each line and it’s history akin to how the CLIPED 1992TS moquette is nicknamed “Tuppenny” as to which the Line was nicknamed and the Piccdilly 2024TS moquette is nicknamed “Holden” due to the line boasting much of Holdens architecture at certain stations.
If that is the case though, will TFL continue the RVAR program with the installation of PIS, Wheelchair Bays and LED lighting? As apparently the whole program was set to go on until at least the late 2020s and if it continues to go ahead, the last units to receive the modifications will shortly be withdrawn and scraped.
It would be thourghly intriguing to whiteness a 2024TS with Bakerloo Line brown decor. I wonder what the new Moquette will be like, as TFL are currently in the theme of bespoke fabric designs according to each line and it’s history akin to how the CLIPED 1992TS moquette is nicknamed “Tuppenny” as to which the Line was nicknamed and the Piccdilly 2024TS moquette is nicknamed “Holden” due to the line boasting much of Holdens architecture at certain stations.
Thats a shame, the 72 stock are a year younger than me, one of the previous given retirement dates was 2040 which would have been after i retire myself.
If you'd spent all your time in tunnels carrying thousands of people maybe you'd be life expired too...
I presume it will be quite similar to the initial ‘New Tube for London’ concept which had more of a ‘New Routemaster’ decor
And the Piccadilly:
I would imagine the ideal timeline of stock replacement is 2025 Piccadilly Line, Bakerloo 2028-2030, Central Line and W&S 2033-2035.
Jubilee and Northern Line replacement stock I would imagine will be the next big stock replacement but I suspect not until the late 2030s or early 2040s.
Jubilee and Northern Line replacement stock I would imagine will be the next big stock replacement but I suspect not until the late 2030s or early 2040s.
Fazaar1889
Member
That's good, I really liked this one
It would’ve been a nice standardised design
Snow1964
Established Member
Seems after the Government offered £250m TfL have convened a short notice Board Finance Committee meeting 22nd December to discuss a new Business Plan
So something significant in existing plan must be changing
So something significant in existing plan must be changing
birchesgreen
Established Member
Travelling in one on the forward facing seats on the Bakerloo is great, though those seats can be annoying when the train is busy and you are having to knee wrestle someone.
A few that I remember: New York, Chicago, Hong Kong, Madrid, Glasgow, ...
Then fom a simple google search, Melbourne, Frankfurt, Sydney, Singapore, Moscow, Istanbul, ...there are many more.
Bear in mind that apart from Glasgow, all of the above have a far more generous structure gauge than the London deep tube, yet many high density metros are ordering new trains with all longitudonal seating, so there's nothing exceptional about LU seating provision and there's no reason to suspect that those of them deploying trains with all ongitudonal seating haven't duly considered the needs of their passengers to be carried in reasonable comfort and safety.
Dstock7080
Established Member
delete
reply above.
reply above.
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Most metro systems around the world have only longitudinal seating now.
Fazaar1889
Member
I think Japan at one point had metro trains without any seating at all!
birchesgreen
Established Member
Some people on this forum will probably salivate over that...
Goldfish62
Established Member
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If the ability to stand up fully wasn't restricted by the bodyside profile the Drain would be an obvious candidate!