23rd June - Thurston to London - Off-Peak Return offered when it shouldn't be?

[mawallace]

If I book a ticket from Thurston to London via Greater Anglia, arriving 0915 and leaving 1645, Fri 23rd June, I am offered and Off Peak ticket

i have treid this via Greater Anglia's website and some other serch engies.

Yet, National Rail does not offer this (which I think is correct)

Is anyone aware of any Off Peak easements on 23rd June - I am not!!

I sort of think if I buy the ticket it's likely that I will be subject to a surcharge if it's picked up

 

[Class800]

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Restriction code 1A
Not valid to arrive in London Liverpool St before 10.00
Edited: noticed you plan to arrive 9.15 not depart 9.15. This doesn't seem in accordance, but if you have an itinerary, in theory it's acceptable

 

[ainsworth74]

i have treid this via Greater Anglia's website and some other serch engies.

Yet, National Rail does not offer this (which I think is correct)

The restriction code for this (1A) would tend to agree, it isn't valid:

Outward Travel

Return Travel

Not valid on any train timed to arrive at London Liverpool Street (or London Kings Cross or London St Pancras International from East Anglia via Cambridge) after 04:29 and before 10:00, and at Stratford (London) before 09:50 and Tottenham Hale or Seven Sisters before 09:40.

Not valid on any train departing London Liverpool Street (or London Kings Cross or passing through London St Pancras International to East Anglia via Cambridge) before 09:30, or after 16:31 and before 18:35. Not valid on north- or eastbound trains departing Stratford (London) before 09:38 or after 16:36 and before 18:43. Not valid on northbound trains departing Tottenham Hale before 09:40 or after 16:41 and before 18:46. Not valid on northbound trains departing Seven Sisters before 09:40 or after 16:44 and before 18:50.

However...

I sort of think if I buy the ticket it's likely that I will be subject to a surcharge if it's picked up

If you buy it with an itinerary from a retailer, especially if that retailer is the operator of your trains, and travel according to that itinerary is should be accepted. Sometimes staff will insist on charging more even in that situation however a complaint should get any extra paid refunded. But admittedly, if you just want an easy life, I'd avoid buying this fare and then travelling on those trains!

Given 2 hours 9 minutes to London above, this seems fine. But would be good to have another check.

OP is arriving into Liverpool Street at 0915 not departing their origin at 0915.

 

[Watershed]

If I book a ticket from Thurston to London via Greater Anglia, arriving 9.15 am and leaving 4.45 pm, Fri 23rd June, I am offered and Off Peak ticket

i have treid this via Greater Anglia's website and some other serch engies.

Yet, National Rail does not offer this (which I think is correct)

Is anyone aware of any Off Peak easements on 23rd June - I am not!!

I sort of think if I buy the ticket it's likely that I will be subject to a surcharge if it's picked up

View attachment 133067

It looks like GA have made a mistake here, as they have set the date range during which the restriction code (1A) applies as ending on 10 June. In other words, after 10 June booking engines are told not to apply the time restrictions that the ticket would normally have.

As such, this issue is likely to be fixed once GA realise their mistake (which could be sooner rather than later, as many TOCs' Pricing Managers read this forum).

However, if you buy the ticket in conjunction with an itinerary showing you as arriving at London at 09:15, it's contractually valid for you to travel in accordance with that itinerary. GA would therefore be in breach of contract if they charged you anything extra or didn't accept your ticket.

One possible explanation for why National Rail Enquiries may be selling an Anytime ticket for that itinerary would be if GA had recently made a change to the data here and NRE hadn't refreshed the data since then (but Trainline, who provide GA's site, had). But that's just a hunch.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It looks like GA have made a mistake here, as they have set the date range during which the restriction code (1A) applies as ending on 10 June. In other words, after 10 June booking engines are told not to apply the time restrictions that the ticket would normally have.

Alternatively, it's Trainline making a mistake (shocking, I know!), given other booking engines and the NRE journey planner are applying the restriction as normal on 23rd June for the same journey.

The restriction seemingly ending on 10th June suggests the May fares change has been pushed back to 11th June - presumably due to the January change being pushed back to March for the third consecutive year.

 

[transportphoto]

I haven’t checked school holiday dates (and this may or may not be the answer here anyway) however I believe historically the Anglia franchise has relaxed peak restrictions during Norfolk/Suffolk school holidays.

 

[Class800]

I've checked school holidays for these 2 counties and it doesn't explain it

 

[SickyNicky]

@Watershed is correct - brfares shows the dates clearly here https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=TRS&dest=1072&tkt=SVS

Restriction Code: 1A​
GA OFF-PEAK TO LONDON​
This restriction code applies ONLY on the following dates/days:​
From​	Until​	Applies on these days:​
Sun 16 Apr 2023​	Fri 28 Apr 2023​	Mo Tu We Th Fr​
Tues 2 May 2023​	Fri 5 May 2023​	Mo Tu We Th Fr​
Tues 9 May 2023​	Fri 26 May 2023​	Mo Tu We Th Fr​
Tues 30 May 2023​	Sat 10 Jun 2023​	Mo Tu We Th Fr​
Fri 29 Mar 2024​	Sat 6 Apr 2024​	Mo Tu We Th Fr​

Clearly the restriction code is switched off after 10th June and not switched on again until 29th March 2024. So retailers are correct to sell the ticket for use without time restrictions. In reality, of course, it won't be accepted.

 

[Paul Kelly]

This is a really interesting one. In the electronic fares data, restrictions can be set separately depending on whether they are considered as applying to future fares (i.e. fares sold for future travel at revised prices within 4 weeks of the fare change date) or to current fares (either for travel before the fares change date, or for travel after the fares change date but sold more than 4 weeks in advance).

Unusually, the date bands are set separately for current and future sales for restriction 1A. For current sales it is as on the BR Fares link above. For future sales it is:

2 April to 3 May: Mon-Fri
7 May to 24 May: Mon-Fri
11 June to 25 August: Mon-Fri
29 August to 22 December: Mon-Fri
27 December to 28 Decemeber: Wed-Fri
2 January to 28 March: Mon-Fri

This also seems to tie in with what CyrusWuff mentioned above about the May fares round seemingly taking effect on 10 June this year. If the usual conventions are followed then the future fares will go on sale (for travel 10 June or later) 4 weeks previously on 14 May. These future restrictions will kick in then. But right now it's the current restrictions that still apply and they don't specify that 1A applies on 23 June, so I think Trainline's interpretation is right. But it's a slightly grey area.

Edit to clarify: I suspect some journey planners are (incorrectly?) applying the restrictions for future fares when theoretically it should still be the current fares sold for travel on 23 June, even though it is after the change date.

 

[SickyNicky]

This is a really interesting one. In the electronic fares data, restrictions can be set separately depending on whether they are considered as applying to future fares (i.e. fares sold for future travel at revised prices within 4 weeks of the fare change date) or to current fares (either for travel before the fares change date, or for travel after the fares change date but sold more than 4 weeks in advance).

Good spot, yes. The RD record in the restrictions table shows the "Future" start date as 11/06/2023. The four week period you mention would start 4 weeks before that - that's why fare increases don't show up until 4 weeks (or whatever the TIS has been nofiied) before the date.

In fact, it's part of accreditation that you control future fares so they only becomes available on a specific date, notified to the TIS by the industry. I've not seen anything to suggest that restrictions should be treated differently to fares. It make sense not to treat them differently, as the actual restriction codes themselves could change at the same time, which would really lead to a mess.

 

[Watershed]

This is a really interesting one. In the electronic fares data, restrictions can be set separately depending on whether they are considered as applying to future fares (i.e. fares sold for future travel at revised prices within 4 weeks of the fare change date) or to current fares (either for travel before the fares change date, or for travel after the fares change date but sold more than 4 weeks in advance).

Unusually, the date bands are set separately for current and future sales for restriction 1A. For current sales it is as on the BR Fares link above. For future sales it is:


This also seems to tie in with what CyrusWuff mentioned above about the May fares round seemingly taking effect on 10 June this year. If the usual conventions are followed then the future fares will go on sale (for travel 10 June or later) 4 weeks previously on 14 May. These future restrictions will kick in then. But right now it's the current restrictions that still apply and they don't specify that 1A applies on 23 June, so I think Trainline's interpretation is right. But it's a slightly grey area.

Edit to clarify: I suspect some journey planners are (incorrectly?) applying the restrictions for future fares when theoretically it should still be the current fares sold for travel on 23 June, even though it is after the change date.

I suspected it might be something along these lines but hadn't checked the restrictions data file yet, so thanks for confirming. I guess this shows how different retailers are handling this situation.

 

[alistairlees]

The May Fares Change Date (FCD) is 11th June this year, with the usual 28 days advance sales applying; so, from Sunday 14th May, fares for journeys on or after 11th June will be at new prices (if they have been changed, which they will be in some cases).

I agree with those who are saying that, logically, until Saturday 13th May, only Current restrictions (as well as current fares) should be applied, no matter what the date of travel. Only from Sunday 14th May should Future restrictions (and Future fares) be applied, and then only for journeys on or after 11th June.

However, I note that the Current restrictions have a specific end date (10th June 2023, ignoring the one in 2024) whereas Current fares don't (the end date usually being 31st December 2999, if I remember correctly, until the Future fares are released, at which point it becomes the end of the Current Fares Setting Round (10th June in this case). I don't have the data in front of me, though, to check.

This does create an inconsistency in dealing with the dates, but it's not a major thing.